London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[kentman]

Yes not been a good week on Southeastern. Got my first Delay Repay for awhile on Tuesday due the trespass XA . 45 Late.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W27990/2015/07/21/advanced

 

[tsr]

Not forgetting the injured trespasser at Selhurst causing pretty much the entire Southern network to go into meltdown yesterday evening. It all started with a GSM-R red button call at pretty much the worst possible time, and then the incident was compounded by only the Down Slow/Down Wallington being open to electric traffic between Norwood Junction and East/West Croydon due to the resulting emergency switch-off, as well as the closure of all lines through Selhurst. The longest delay to a train that I saw was about 108 minutes (and Southern actually put this on Twitter, leading to much derision). I got home from work close to 3am... should have been rather earlier!

 

[Yabbadabba]

Not forgetting the injured trespasser at Selhurst causing pretty much the entire Southern network to go into meltdown yesterday evening. It all started with a GSM-R red button call at pretty much the worst possible time, and then the incident was compounded by only the Down Slow/Down Wallington being open to electric traffic between Norwood Junction and East/West Croydon due to the resulting emergency switch-off, as well as the closure of all lines through Selhurst. The longest delay to a train that I saw was about 108 minutes (and Southern actually put this on Twitter, leading to much derision). I got home from work close to 3am... should have been rather earlier!

That was not a very pleasant day at work, come off break took over the panel with one under at Selhurst. Needed to confirm isolation limits, needed to talk to the RIO to see if the casualty/fatality (not sure at the time if the person was living or not at the time) would be hidden from passing trains, so we could open up the slows and Selhurst Spurs to trains with trains not to call at Selhurst. East Croydon in total chaos and down to three platforms and control wanting to terminate there and lose another platform. All in all total chaos and was glad to signing off at 21:00 to the night shift.

 

[RichJF]

Is there something wrong with London Bridge & arriving 12 car trains?

Over the last 2 weeks, on 7 days the rear 4 coaches have failed to open & release the doors. These are always the furthest 4 coaches from the ticket barriers: It is always on Pl 12 or pl 13.

Is there a GPS sensor or something in the trackbed that has become faulty & causing only 8 coaches to open?

This morning (28th July) the platform staff & guard had to pull the emergency lever to release the doors as nobody could get into the front 8 coaches & the overcrowding was dangerous.

If anyone has any more info that would be great!

 

[Bald Rick]

It's a Selective Door Opening beacon (not GPS). And there has been a regular problem with the beacon in that platform, probably something to do with interference, although not sure what.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's a Selective Door Opening beacon (not GPS). And there has been a regular problem with the beacon in that platform, probably something to do with interference, although not sure what.

I noticed the problem affecting an arriving 12-car rake in p12 yesterday evening. Much confusion as doors failed to open on the rear unit, then slightly panicky announcements, then more selective door closing and opening. It took several minutes before all was well.

 

[RichJF]

I've noticed it's any Electrostar in the early 377/1 series that seems to fail. i.e. 377101-140ish. The same ones crop up on my morning service fairly regularly.

The 377/2 (rare on my train) & 377/4's are mostly fine.

 

[Bishopstone]

Another meltdown tonight due to an 'incident' at Brockley.

Having tail-gated through the wide barrier at Cannon Street (LU), which appeared to be unstaffed, I'm on another GatEx 442 (18.59 ex-VIC) without aircon. I presume Southern can't be bothered to fix these units, given most of them will be gone by next summer.

 

[carriageline]

Not quite sure you would 'incident' like that if you knew what it was. Not quite sure why it hasn't been released though

 

[FOH]

Same chaos as in the winter, platforms advertised, passengers on board. No driver. Boards say ontime. Useless.

 

[Bishopstone]

Not quite sure you would 'incident' like that if you knew what it was. Not quite sure why it hasn't been released though

I wrote 'incident' because that was/is the official description applied to this... incident. A fatality, I presume? If so, sympathies to all concerned. There have been far too many of late.

 

[Bald Rick]

Same chaos as in the winter, platforms advertised, passengers on board. No driver. Boards say ontime. Useless.

Same chaos as would have happened if a fatality had happened at Brockley at 1735 on any weekday in the past 30 years or so.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Same chaos as would have happened if a fatality had happened at Brockley at 1735 on any weekday in the past 30 years or so.

Quite - except there are a heck of a lot more trains and passengers now. The very best will have been done to sort it - and keep the wheels rolling and passengers home for their (delayed) dinners.

Someone will be sorting out the stock , crews and clearing the lines now and overnight to restore the system for the morning.

 

[FOH]

Same chaos as would have happened if a fatality had happened at Brockley at 1735 on any weekday in the past 30 years or so.

so, no progress in 30 years. Shameful for a brand new station and brand new line.
I always say that running trains is obviously hard, communicating effectively in this day and age shouldn't be.

 

[Bald Rick]

so, no progress in 30 years. Shameful for a brand new station and brand new line.
I always say that running trains is obviously hard, communicating effectively in this day and age shouldn't be.

Eh? It doesn't matter how new the station or line is, (and the line at Brockley is 30 years older than it was 30 years ago), but an incident that requires all trains to be stopped for over an hour in the evening peak on the main approaches to a London terminus is going to be difficult.

And as Chief Planner says, there are a lot more people to deal with. More than twice as many on the Sydenham corridor than 20 years ago for example

 

[FOH]

I understand it's hard but I do not agree that there is nothing better that could be done and just file it under difficult. I referred to a new line as we were all told that London Bridge is under the control of some new whizz-bang signaling control centre and all the modern comms that come with it.
Let me illustrate my personal experience from last night. I arrived to find the next train out was likely the 1906 Caterham. Got on it only to be immediately announced it would be the front 4 coaches only. Went down to the front and after 5 minutes it was announced it was cancelled and it immediately disappeared off the board. Went across the platform to the 2022 which was marked as OnTime only for an announcement at 2015 or so that there was no driver and we should go to Platform 15 for the 2006. Now, given that we were the front 4 coaches of 12 and that the 2006 was also front 4 coaches I decided to stick it out. In the end, a few minutes later a driver turned up and we were away probably only 3 down in the end (thus rendering the driver announcement unnecessary) - mostly empty as most had run (and presumably be in an exhausted state) for the 2006.
I longed for the only decent announcer but he was sadly not to be heard - I heard him this morning on Platform 13 giving clear, concise information - that guy deserves a bonus.

 

[carriageline]

If no one tells us there is no driver on it, how will we know? Plus, CIS and passengers being on a train with no driver has nothing to do with us. So can't see how it being signalled from the ROC has anything to do with that. The comms haven't changed, exactly the same. Plus, the people who tell us about no driver would be the station. Who do you expect to communicate it to us?

The station should of dealt with it, but the problem is they was probably dealing with 2million other things, passengers and trains.

Stock and staff get very seriously displaced during incidents like this. Often you won't know a driver won't be available until he doesn't turn up. Traffic Management should improve this, with stock and staff management being able to show conflicts and displacement early on.

 

[ComUtoR]

Afternoon carriageline. Got a couple of points on that; mostly anecdotal though. If I can tear you away from your cuppa a moment. Apologies to anyone else if this veers off on a random tangent.

If no one tells us there is no driver on it, how will we know?

So can't see how it being signalled from the ROC has anything to do with that.

On those two points. Do you only set the road and or pull the signal IF the TRTS has been sent ? I ask because sometimes the signal is off before I even get in the cab. I have mixed information about when the signal pulls off and or the road is set. I have been told the route can be set at any time but the Signaller won't clear the signal until they get a TRTS from the station. Clearly that isn't the case as personal experience is very different.

If the road is set then it prevents other train movements so that must be down to the Signaller ?

The comms haven't changed, exactly the same. Plus, the people who tell us about no driver would be the station. Who do you expect to communicate it to us?

What about the change from CSR to GSMR ? Again, from what I was always taught. The panel in the box doesn't show the train until I key it on and turn on the, at the time, CSR. Any truth in that ? What difference has GSMR brought ? I have many setup issues (Signaller related) but is the unit/headcode in the system before the TRTS is given and does keying on the unit and enlivening up the GSMR send a message to the box ? What about when I attempt to setup ? Surely if my GSMR is setup then I'm in the cab ?

It is not currently possible to SG without a headcode in yet I have been asked on various occasions to SG when I'm ready to start (without headcode in) Would giving an SG be a better system than reliance on platform staff to TRTS ? I have know them on many many occasions to TRTS without a Driver in the cab :/

Cheers in advance.

 

[Bald Rick]

The route is only set after receiving TRTS. However, The platform staff don't necessarily wait for the driver to be in the cab before TRTS in plunged.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Eh? It doesn't matter how new the station or line is, (and the line at Brockley is 30 years older than it was 30 years ago), but an incident that requires all trains to be stopped for over an hour in the evening peak on the main approaches to a London terminus is going to be difficult.

And as Chief Planner says, there are a lot more people to deal with. More than twice as many on the Sydenham corridor than 20 years ago for example

I wonder how the number of staff to deal with the problem has changed over that time? I suspect it might be considerably less!

 

[tsr]

The route is only set after receiving TRTS. However, The platform staff don't necessarily wait for the driver to be in the cab before TRTS in plunged.

Quite. The platform staff at LBG will generally TRTS no less than 3 minutes before time of departure providing the train is known to be allocated to a specific working, and that all crew are present. There is indeed no need for either driver or conductor to be onboard and in fact the conductor will very often still be walking down the train when TRTS is given.

 

[ComUtoR]

The route is only set after receiving TRTS. However, The platform staff don't necessarily wait for the driver to be in the cab before TRTS in plunged.

I've seen routes set (visually) without TRTS operated and I've had conversations with Signalers about routes being set etc without any TRTS. There isn't any consistency. Is there a manual override or specific rules governing when the route gets set etc ?

By random coincidence I was asked by my local shunter that I didn't give a TRTS in the sidings yet came out without a problem. I simply told him I spoke the Signaler direct and he pulled the road. It certainly isn't interlocked in any way.

I've also had platform staff moaning about being dropped in it by the Driver because the gave a TRTS without a Driver in attendance. On our side I know for certain it isn't allowed. Is it TOC specific ?

Cheers Bald Rick for the swift response.

 

[carriageline]

we can clear signals whenever we want, from a technical viewpoint TRTS isn't required for the signal to clear. I'll reply to the rest shortly
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Afternoon carriageline. Got a couple of points on that; mostly anecdotal though. If I can tear you away from your cuppa a moment. Apologies to anyone else if this veers off on a random tangent.



On those two points. Do you only set the road and or pull the signal IF the TRTS has been sent ? I ask because sometimes the signal is off before I even get in the cab. I have mixed information about when the signal pulls off and or the road is set. I have been told the route can be set at any time but the Signaller won't clear the signal until they get a TRTS from the station. Clearly that isn't the case as personal experience is very different.

The route can be set at any time, and it's down to signaller preference really. At busy terminus, you don't have much option but to wait TRTS. Some signallers may chance it, but the axe may fall on our head if it isn't ready.

During busy periods or disruption I will definitely await TRTS. Any other time, If I see its 30 seconds before booked departure and I haven't received TRTS but if the driver has set up his GSMR I will pull off.

If it's quiet with not a lot running around (ie Sunday's/late at night) I will pull off without TRTS.

If the road is set then it prevents other train movements so that must be down to the Signaller ?

Correct, which is why some may be reluctant to just pulling off. Even more so at busy terminus.

What about the change from CSR to GSMR ? Again, from what I was always taught. The panel in the box doesn't show the train until I key it on and turn on the, at the time, CSR. Any truth in that ? What difference has GSMR brought ? I have many setup issues (Signaller related) but is the unit/headcode in the system before the TRTS is given and does keying on the unit and enlivening up the GSMR send a message to the box ? What about when I attempt to setup ? Surely if my GSMR is setup then I'm in the cab

Unfortunately I have never had or used CSR so can only talk from a GSMR perspective. On our GSMR terminals, we have a list of trains registered in our area of control. It lists the trains headcode, unit number/which end, and the signal/area. The train will only show on this list once you have set your GSMR up with the headcode. It doesn't show units connected, but not set up (although we can call you if we know the unit number)

We get no alarm or message when you set up, key on or fail to set up. A good signaller should have the 'new' headcode in the berth by the time you are in a platform, if they are awaiting TRTS then that's too late! but there are many reasons why this sometimes doesn't happen. If the headcode isn't in the berth, you won't be able to set up as you are probably aware!

At my terminus, I will have the new headcode in just after I set the route into the platform.

it is not currently possible to SG without a headcode in yet I have been asked on various occasions to SG when I'm ready to start (without headcode in) Would giving an SG be a better system than reliance on platform staff to TRTS ? I have know them on many many occasions to TRTS without a Driver in the cab :/



Cheers in advance.

Yes and no. I think personally that the TRTS system works fine. But as you say, mistakes do happen. But my system works well, as in if I haven't got TRTS and the trains booked to depart shortly, I will pull off if the train is registered and set up in the GSMR.

Unfortunately GSMR is very much in its infancy, and a lot of people don't realise or know how it's worked, how much it really is tied in to the train described machines and its limitations.

 

[ComUtoR]

You're a Star.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

During disruption - platform staff get overwhelmed by passenger queries (naturally) and the challenge of making sure the driver is in the cab before plunging out can get a bit tricky....AND - once a route is cleared , and then cancelled - the driver MUST be informed by the signalman/ er before putting the starting signal back. Sounds easy doesn't it - and you can just sense the stress all round ....from the box to the platform to the cab.

 

[FOH]

I'm sure everyone is getting fed up with my rants about Southern but suffice to say control excelled itself with the disruption this morning. First time I've had to resort to walking to another station. Yet again us Metro customers were abandoned.

 

[ComUtoR]

AND - once a route is cleared , and then cancelled - the driver MUST be informed by the signalman/ er before putting the starting signal back.

You would think that's the case wouldn't you. Now where did I put my 3185...

 

[grid56126]

Going back up thread a bit, "Emergency Services Dealing With An Incident" is now the ATOC / Industry standard reason for use in incidents involving at person or persons being hit by a train. This follows research with respect to copycat suicides and risk to vulnerable people being pushed over the edge by seeing messaging stating "person hit by train". There is also some stuff around locations being generic "between" locations being preferred to "at" but not seen much evidence of the latter being used. This new "standard" has raised eyebrows, especially after "fatality" was only dropped a relatively short time back and the industry is constantly battling against complaints for poor infornation provision . . .

 

[30907]

Going back up thread a bit, "Emergency Services Dealing With An Incident" is now the ATOC / Industry standard reason for use in incidents involving at person or persons being hit by a train. This follows research with respect to copycat suicides and risk to vulnerable people being pushed over the edge by seeing messaging stating "person hit by train". There is also some stuff around locations being generic "between" locations being preferred to "at" but not seen much evidence of the latter being used. This new "standard" has raised eyebrows, especially after "fatality" was only dropped a relatively short time back and the industry is constantly battling against complaints for poor infornation provision . . .

Back in the 70's on the SR it was always "an incident at" - so we're back where we started.

 

[infobleep]

If no one tells us there is no driver on it, how will we know? Plus, CIS and passengers being on a train with no driver has nothing to do with us. So can't see how it being signalled from the ROC has anything to do with that. The comms haven't changed, exactly the same. Plus, the people who tell us about no driver would be the station. Who do you expect to communicate it to us?

The station should of dealt with it, but the problem is they was probably dealing with 2million other things, passengers and trains.

Stock and staff get very seriously displaced during incidents like this. Often you won't know a driver won't be available until he doesn't turn up. Traffic Management should improve this, with stock and staff management being able to show conflicts and displacement early on.

Don't they use traffic management already?