London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[carriageline]

Don't they use traffic management already?

Nope. The contracts only just been signed, it's a few years away yet.

Only difference now is its signaller by WestCad workstations instead of an NX panel.

 

[infobleep]

How long do London Bridge passengers need to find their platform and board their train.

The 18.23 did not have a platform at 18.22, yet was shown as on time.

Shortly after that to be fair they updated to say it would be late. Only 5 minutes late according to the board but the manual announcement said it would turn up in 5 minutes.

 

[neilm]

Its due in lbg at 18:28

 

[infobleep]

I'm not actually getting the train. Just waiting to meet someone but I'm by a departure board and I noticed that even less an 2 minutes before it's listed on time departure, it didn't have a platform.

As the train often gets mentioned on here, I thought I'd ask the question.

 

[Deepgreen]

Shambolic this evening - slow running of the 1659 ex- LBG from Norwood Junction to Redhill led to me missing my hourly connection to Betchworth AGAIN. Despite Southern assuring me by previous e-mail that these connections should be held, it wasn't (as we heard the departing train rumble over the subway bridge!). Pathetic! Also, very strange signaller work at Redhill with diverted down Brighton line workings appeared to add needlessly to delays.

 

[AndrewB]

The 18.23 did not have a platform at 18.22, yet was shown as on time.

I suspect "on time" sometimes is a polite way of saying "dunno".

 

[infobleep]

Shambolic this evening - slow running of the 1659 ex- LBG from Norwood Junction to Redhill led to me missing my hourly connection to Betchworth AGAIN. Despite Southern assuring me by previous e-mail that these connections should be held, it wasn't (as we heard the departing train rumble over the subway bridge!). Pathetic! Also, very strange signaller work at Redhill with diverted down Brighton line workings appeared to add needlessly to delays.

Perhaps the customer services staff who told you it would be held were wrong and talking out of turn.

Perhaps they should have said under no certain terms will the train be held for you no matter how long you have to wait for the next service. We only hold trains for members of staff and if you don't like it go and live somewhere else.

That certainly seems to be their attitude.

Could they not pay for a taxi every time you miss your connection?

 

[Class377/5]

Shambolic this evening - slow running of the 1659 ex- LBG from Norwood Junction to Redhill led to me missing my hourly connection to Betchworth AGAIN. Despite Southern assuring me by previous e-mail that these connections should be held, it wasn't (as we heard the departing train rumble over the subway bridge!). Pathetic! Also, very strange signaller work at Redhill with diverted down Brighton line workings appeared to add needlessly to delays.

Strange signaller work? You mean diverting services due to an issue in the Quarry lines requiring less trains to be sent that way?

For the connections to be held, did you alert any staff to fact?

 

[deltic]

I see the August Bank Holiday shut down throws up some interesting route planning on National Rail.

London to Greenwich advises London Bridge to New Cross Gate, New Cross Gate to Surrey Quays, Surrey Quays to New Cross, rail replacement from New Cross to Greenwich. Not sure why the rail replacement service cannot start at New Cross Gate or how many people will follow the advised route!

 

[Bishopstone]

I caught the 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne for the first time in a few weeks, tonight.

We departed right time but, again, just lost odd minutes through Croydon and Gatwick for reasons unexplained, but presumably summarised as 'congestion'. Still don't understand how more trains are going to fit through East Croydon (particularly) come 2018.

Missed the 19.31 Seaford connection at Lewes by a few minutes, and the 19.58 was cancelled due to staffing issues, as Reggie Perrin might have said.

I asked the excellent station staff whether Control might arrange a cab. To the surprise of all concerned, Control agreed, although by the time it arrived (from Brighton, despite the cab rank outside Lewes station) I only saved five minutes versus waiting for the 20.28 train. Still, it was good of them to call on my behalf.

I have been going up on the silly-o-clock from Bishopstone, lately, and returning early from LBG. I recommend it: the journeys at both ends of the day are exceedingly reliable. I feel much less stressed working builders hours.

 

[Hophead]

I caught the 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne for the first time in a few weeks, tonight.

We departed right time but, again, just lost odd minutes through Croydon and Gatwick for reasons unexplained, but presumably summarised as 'congestion'. Still don't understand how more trains are going to fit through East Croydon (particularly) come 2018.

Missed the 19.31 Seaford connection at Lewes by a few minutes, and the 19.58 was cancelled due to staffing issues, as Reggie Perrin might have said.

I asked the excellent station staff whether Control might arrange a cab. To the surprise of all concerned, Control agreed, although by the time it arrived (from Brighton, despite the cab rank outside Lewes station) I only saved five minutes versus waiting for the 20.28 train. Still, it was good of them to call on my behalf.

I have been going up on the silly-o-clock from Bishopstone, lately, and returning early from LBG. I recommend it: the journeys at both ends of the day are exceedingly reliable. I feel much less stressed working builders hours.

Have meant to ask this before, but you've not raised your commuting troubles recently..... If the train from London's not too late, would you be able to get the 19:40 Newhaven train and connect onto a no. 12 bus? Perhaps Southern could be persuaded to make this a default in times of late-running?

 

[clagmonster]

As a atter of interest, what was the operating incident at Plumstead on Saturday afternoon? Dealt with quite quickly, but I hit it at the wrong time.

 

[infobleep]

I caught the 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne for the first time in a few weeks, tonight.

We departed right time but, again, just lost odd minutes through Croydon and Gatwick for reasons unexplained, but presumably summarised as 'congestion'. Still don't understand how more trains are going to fit through East Croydon (particularly) come 2018.

Missed the 19.31 Seaford connection at Lewes by a few minutes, and the 19.58 was cancelled due to staffing issues, as Reggie Perrin might have said.

I asked the excellent station staff whether Control might arrange a cab. To the surprise of all concerned, Control agreed, although by the time it arrived (from Brighton, despite the cab rank outside Lewes station) I only saved five minutes versus waiting for the 20.28 train. Still, it was good of them to call on my behalf.

I have been going up on the silly-o-clock from Bishopstone, lately, and returning early from LBG. I recommend it: the journeys at both ends of the day are exceedingly reliable. I feel much less stressed working builders hours.

Very good of them. How long would the wait have been otherwise?

Could Deepgreen request the same to Betchworth when he misses his evening connection at Redhill and the gap to the next service is an hour or even 2 hours?

 

[southern442]

I caught the 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne for the first time in a few weeks, tonight.

We departed right time but, again, just lost odd minutes through Croydon and Gatwick for reasons unexplained, but presumably summarised as 'congestion'. Still don't understand how more trains are going to fit through East Croydon (particularly) come 2018.

I think it is ridiculous to not provide at least 2 more platforms at East Croydon as part of the Thameslink Programme. There is space set aside, and a lot of problems on practically the whole network are amplified there. As I mentioned in another thread about BML2, if a train is 5 minutes late, and the next train is due in 3 minutes after it, then that next train will also be 5 minutes late. This is a scenario that happens pretty much every day at East Croydon. More platforms is the only way the station will be able to get by, that or make some trains non-stop...

 

[Deepgreen]

I think it is ridiculous to not provide at least 2 more platforms at East Croydon as part of the Thameslink Programme. There is space set aside, and a lot of problems on practically the whole network are amplified there. As I mentioned in another thread about BML2, if a train is 5 minutes late, and the next train is due in 3 minutes after it, then that next train will also be 5 minutes late. This is a scenario that happens pretty much every day at East Croydon. More platforms is the only way the station will be able to get by, that or make some trains non-stop...

Given the interminable work (or lack of) to refurbish the existing platforms, I wouldn't imagine any extra ones will arrive soon!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Very good of them. How long would the wait have been otherwise?

Could Deepgreen request the same to Betchworth when he misses his evening connection at Redhill and the gap to the next service is an hour or even 2 hours?

Fat chance - the taxi would probably leave a few seconds before I could get in it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Missed the 19.31 Seaford connection at Lewes by a few minutes, and the 19.58 was cancelled due to staffing issues, as Reggie Perrin might have said.

"Morning Miss Jones. 11 minutes late - badger in a junction box at Berrylands". Lovely stuff.

 

[Philip C]

I think it is ridiculous to not provide at least 2 more platforms at East Croydon as part of the Thameslink Programme. There is space set aside, and a lot of problems on practically the whole network are amplified there. As I mentioned in another thread about BML2, if a train is 5 minutes late, and the next train is due in 3 minutes after it, then that next train will also be 5 minutes late. This is a scenario that happens pretty much every day at East Croydon. More platforms is the only way the station will be able to get by, that or make some trains non-stop...

.....as was the case before the introduction of the new timetable in 1978. In my humble opinion that was one of the four worst things to happen to the old Central Division. The other three being (1) the clogging up of the main line by Thameslink services, many of which were four car services and poor time-keepers, (2) The introduction of the quarter hourly ECS workings to Gatwick (well perhaps not quite ECS but they have never matched the loadings of other Victoria services) and (3) The granting of free travel to London's Elderly etc, in the evening peak, on National Rail services.

I could add to the list and I fully accept that the pre-1978 timetable could not have survived unaltered to the present day. I think the message "get East Croydon right and the rest will fall into place" remains the key to Central Division running (as, incidentally "get Park's Bridge right ...." applies to the South Eastern Division). I, for one, cannot see how full-Thameslink is going to help and easing pressure at EC by some non-stopping and moving connecting points further out would seem to be a logical step.

 

[tony6499]

.....as was the case before the introduction of the new timetable in 1978. In my humble opinion that was one of the four worst things to happen to the old Central Division. The other three being (1) the clogging up of the main line by Thameslink services, many of which were four car services and poor time-keepers, (2) The introduction of the quarter hourly ECS workings to Gatwick (well perhaps not quite ECS but they have never matched the loadings of other Victoria services) and (3) The granting of free travel to London's Elderly etc, in the evening peak, on National Rail services.

I could add to the list and I fully accept that the pre-1978 timetable could not have survived unaltered to the present day. I think the message "get East Croydon right and the rest will fall into place" remains the key to Central Division running (as, incidentally "get Park's Bridge right ...." applies to the South Eastern Division). I, for one, cannot see how full-Thameslink is going to help and easing pressure at EC by some non-stopping and moving connecting points further out would seem to be a logical step.

I think something needs to be done with the Freedom Pass holders and put a 1615 - 1915 super off peak block on users which would free up space on trains. East Croydon as a junction/station wouldn't be able to cope with any new services unless some radical thinking goes ahead and I'm not sure there are the brains there to do it.

 

[infobleep]

]
Fat chance - the taxi would probably leave a few seconds before I could get in it!

Might be worth a try given the experience at Lewes. If they say no then raise the inconsistency. I guess they might argue over who pays for the taxi, the arguing process in staff time costing more than the taxi fare.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it is ridiculous to not provide at least 2 more platforms at East Croydon as part of the Thameslink Programme.

Building the two platforms is not all they need to do, and unravelling all the junctions north of East Croydon (to remove all the flat crossing conflicts) would probably have taken Thameslink into unaffordable territory - it needs something like the current Bermondsey work, but more complex again.

Isn't it now in the pipeline for CP6 though? The Sussex route plan draft has some drawings of the proposals, and London Reconnections did an article about it here, which has some decent drawings of the proposals, showing the complexity:

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-7-east-croydon/

 

[sarahj]

I caught the 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne for the first time in a few weeks, tonight.

We departed right time but, again, just lost odd minutes through Croydon and Gatwick for reasons unexplained, but presumably summarised as 'congestion'. Still don't understand how more trains are going to fit through East Croydon (particularly) come 2018.

Missed the 19.31 Seaford connection at Lewes by a few minutes, and the 19.58 was cancelled due to staffing issues, as Reggie Perrin might have said.

I asked the excellent station staff whether Control might arrange a cab. To the surprise of all concerned, Control agreed, although by the time it arrived (from Brighton, despite the cab rank outside Lewes station) I only saved five minutes versus waiting for the 20.28 train. Still, it was good of them to call on my behalf.

I have been going up on the silly-o-clock from Bishopstone, lately, and returning early from LBG. I recommend it: the journeys at both ends of the day are exceedingly reliable. I feel much less stressed working builders hours.

Cabs booked are done through a central clearing service who go for the cheapest quote, sometimes not the closest, and sometimes not the best (the taxi taking me from Brighton to Lewes on tue morning to meet the ECS to form the first service from Seaford, (ecs had to go via Keymer) got lost in Lewes and I had to guide him). The Taxis at Lewes (eg S&G) are not on this system and not part of the Southern accounting system.
As for staff shortages, well B shift are rather short. I'm A shift and today we were mainly fine, though covering some other depots. A few staff, both drivers and conductors left recently, either retired or moved on to other things and its taking time to train more.

but otherwise, don't ask me, I only work here.

 

[Bishopstone]

Have meant to ask this before, but you've not raised your commuting troubles recently..... If the train from London's not too late, would you be able to get the 19:40 Newhaven train and connect onto a no. 12 bus? Perhaps Southern could be persuaded to make this a default in times of late-running?

It's a good point, and would be a suitable solution on many occasions. The cost to Southern would be modest. If memory serves me right I did ask Southern whether they would agree this via another forum - the Passenger Panel, probably - but they either refused or didn't respond on this specific matter.

The official line is that no alternative travel arrangements can be made, and the solution is to make the 18.23 run to time, which I can see they are genuinely putting work into. (Although I think tonight was another 'miss')

Incidentally, a staff source told me the 18.23 would be going over to 377s in December, as a performance improvement measure. This is contrary to what I've gleaned from various threads here, where six 442s were to be retained for the current Brighton/Eastbourne - LBG peak diagrams. Do informed sources know anything further?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Very good of them. How long would the wait have been otherwise?

Could Deepgreen request the same to Betchworth when he misses his evening connection at Redhill and the gap to the next service is an hour or even 2 hours?

Into Lewes at about 19.38. The next non-cancelled Seaford train was the 20.28.
Genuinely wasn't expecting Control to agree a cab, but they did so very readily.

I reported a vandalised lineside fence at BIP a few weeks back, and cleared some nail-embedded fence posts strewn over the station path, so maybe this was a return favour. I doubt it will be repeated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cabs booked are done through a central clearing service who go for the cheapest quote, sometimes not the closest, and sometimes not the best (the taxi taking me from Brighton to Lewes on tue morning to meet the ECS to form the first service from Seaford, (ecs had to go via Keymer) got lost in Lewes and I had to guide him). The Taxis at Lewes (eg S&G) are not on this system and not part of the Southern accounting system.

Yes, the Brighton cabbie was telling me about the system. I had to guide him off the A259 to Bishopstone station. Non-local cabs always take the A27/A26 route to Newhaven, as well, whereas the local guys and girls tend to shoot down the C-road through Piddinghoe.

 

[Class377/5]

Building the two platforms is not all they need to do, and unravelling all the junctions north of East Croydon (to remove all the flat crossing conflicts) would probably have taken Thameslink into unaffordable territory - it needs something like the current Bermondsey work, but more complex again.

Isn't it now in the pipeline for CP6 though? The Sussex route plan draft has some drawings of the proposals, and London Reconnections did an article about it here, which has some decent drawings of the proposals, showing the complexity:

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/study-sussex-part-7-east-croydon/

There's lots of planning going into CP6 stuff. Not time for it to be public but it's sigificant stuff that's on the TLP level. But its worthwhile stuff.

The 442s remain on Eastbourne but don't forget mass use of 442s will still be happening in Decemeber, its nearer May until the 387/2 fleet is fully in service. The timetable isn't fully yet (little bits to do), allocations won't be properly know for individual trains yet.

 

[ScotGG]

The southeastern side was horrible tonight. About 2 trains an hour for some of the very busy Dartford lines.

I also had a look at the draught Aug 2016 timetables. Looks like some lower capacity on the Dartford lines, and areas seeing 10% or higher annual growth having less trains. Not sure how that's going to work unless more stock is procurred asap. All gone quiet on some 319s moving over to free up networkers on Vic routes, to extend metro services to 12 carriages.

 

[Bald Rick]

The southeastern side was horrible tonight. About 2 trains an hour for some of the very busy Dartford lines.

I also had a look at the draught Aug 2016 timetables. Looks like some lower capacity on the Dartford lines, and areas seeing 10% or higher annual growth having less trains. Not sure how that's going to work unless more stock is procurred asap. All gone quiet on some 319s moving over to free up networkers on Vic routes, to extend metro services to 12 carriages.

Train failure just outside London Bridge for an hour this afternoon, stopped everything into / out of Cannon St. Crews displaced etc. Messy.

Pretty sure there is no reduction in capacity from London to the Dartford lines, and SE certainly aren't giving any trains away, there may be reallocation of services between Charing Cross and Cannon St, plus stock allocations will change.

 

[ScotGG]

I'll have to have another look at the draft timetables but I think there were less trains per hour in the peaks on some lines, and with existing trains already at maximum length on the Greenwich line I can't see how capacity can be maintained?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'll have to have another look at the draft timetables but I think there were less trains per hour in the peaks on some lines, and with existing trains already at maximum length on the Greenwich line I can't see how capacity can be maintained?

Ah. There's a difference between 'lower capacity on the Dartford Lines' and a reduction in the number of trains from Cannon St to the Greenwich line.

To maintain a link between Charlton - Slade Green and London Bridge, some services on that route are being diverted to Charing Cross. Some will also skip Woolwich Dockyard so they can be 12 car, including one Cannon St train. Anyone wanting London Bridge from Charlton eastwards will get a Charing Cross train; today they have to get a Cannon St train. This will free up seats on the services via Greenwich (which can only go to Cannon St, not calling London Bridge).

So whilst the number of trains to Cannon St from Deptford, Greenwich, Maze Hill, Westcombe Park will be (slightly) fewer, when the trains arrive at those 4 stations there should be more space available on them than currently.

 

[physics34]

There's lots of planning going into CP6 stuff. Not time for it to be public but it's sigificant stuff that's on the TLP level. But its worthwhile stuff.

The 442s remain on Eastbourne but don't forget mass use of 442s will still be happening in Decemeber, its nearer May until the 387/2 fleet is fully in service. The timetable isn't fully yet (little bits to do), allocations won't be properly know for individual trains yet.

its the disruption thatll take place during the Windmill Bridge/East Croydon work that I can see being a huge issue, more so than the London Bridge work.

Will be very interesting to see future plans.

I'll be hard not to disrupt both routes into London at the same time.

 

[Class377/5]

its the disruption thatll take place during the Windmill Bridge/East Croydon work that I can see being a huge issue, more so than the London Bridge work.

Will be very interesting to see future plans.

I'll be hard not to disrupt both routes into London at the same time.

There is no alternative, it has to be done for everything to cope with the required capacity. But your right, its going to affect both routes.

Windmill Bridge is going to be a big project that's going to need the Thameslink Programme 12 car coast services to cope during. Metro services needs it sorting too.

 

[Tangent]

Problems with the track on the Up Slow near St Johns: all trains diverted at present.

 

[ScotGG]

Screwed up the entire morning. Only 25% PPM for Kent Link (London Metro) in the morning peak.