London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[ComUtoR]

A change away from all staff having the same leave year is the only way to stop an issue of everyone taking remaining leave at the end of the year

You first need to address the reason why "everyone" is taking remaining leave.

Even if you stagger the leave year for everyone you still get a situation where people will need to take leave before the end of their leave year. Having a July birthday becomes very very advantageous. What happens when I get to the end of my leave year and I have outstanding days ? Do I now get priority leave over someone who is in the middle of their year and what happens to their leave ? It's just pushing things round in circles.

Address why people don't get leave first.

Also people will STILL want to take seasonal holidays. Christmas is a big reason why leave is taken at the end of the year.

could you potentially have part-time (either junior or semi-retired) drivers covering for the main pool at these times of the year?

Not so much of a can of worms but a huge black hole of discussion. It is just another reason why changes to leave doesn't work. Also Part time staff need leave too.

Other employment works well as you can have seasonal staff. Oddly enough its because the full time staff want times like Christmas off.

 

[southern442]

Not so much of a can of worms but a huge black hole of discussion. It is just another reason why changes to leave doesn't work. Also Part time staff need leave too.

Since they are part-time, they can have their leave when they are not working!

Other employment works well as you can have seasonal staff. Oddly enough its because the full time staff want times like Christmas off.

Are seasonal staff not pretty much the same as part time staff?

 

[ComUtoR]

Since they are part-time, they can have their leave when they are not working!

I see the joke but its not legal.

Are seasonal staff not pretty much the same as part time staff?

Different.

Part time staff are typically on permanent contracts but limited time (12hrs, weekends only etc) they often have more flexible working arrangements. There is a discussion in the general area just kicking off about part time Drivers. Worth keeping an eye on before the arguments start.

Seasonal staff are where employers hire in staff on temporary contracts just for "the season" This is done in retail a lot and suits students coming back home for the "season" They are more like temp workers than part time.

FYI TOC's are allowing part time but its highly restrictive and limited.

 

[jon0844]

A page or two back someone mentioned DOR taking over if things go wrong, but I can't see that myself. DOR had a nice easy run before, doing very little but keep things ticking along and running a very simple service relatively speaking.

I don't think they'd have such an easy ride with this, and it would seriously harm the pro nationalisation camp, when DOR also fails to provide a service.

As for leave, my wife has the ability to buy and sell a few days of leave (not sure how many) so there's not quite the same panic or rush.

 

[ComUtoR]

As for leave, my wife has the ability to buy and sell a few days of leave (not sure how many) so there's not quite the same panic or rush.

I had something similar waaaaay back before I was a Driver. Potentially I would support that approach as on the surface I don't see much of an issue other than cost to the TOC.

If you get to the end of the leave year the ability to sell the excess days back could help.

 

[infobleep]

I had something similar waaaaay back before I was a Driver. Potentially I would support that approach as on the surface I don't see much of an issue other than cost to the TOC.

If you get to the end of the leave year the ability to sell the excess days back could help.

Would selling excess days back be cheaper than the fines for not running trains?

 

[ComUtoR]

Would selling excess days back be cheaper than the fines for not running trains?

Only the bean counters could tell you that for certain.

When you get to the end of the leave year and you have outstanding days you can either book people off and have a potential shortage of staff, carry over the leave to the next year and have staff with more days to take in the same amount of time.

Both have a cost and not specifically because you cancel services, I'd love to know the real numbers for cancelled trains due to leave rather than the numerous other staffing issues. I think the perception is far greater than the reality.

By selling the leave it resets everyone back to the correct level with no excesses. IF your in a situation where you are using rest day workers to cover leave then the cost evens out because your paying to cover anyway. Resetting the leave and buying back those with days carrying over means that your roster should already allow for the booked and budgeted leave.

Depending on depot size; if everyone had just 1 day excess then your well behind. In reality there aren't many Drivers who carry over leave days and those with numerous days carrying over are also on the extreme end.

There are numerous reasons why leave isn't granted. Those need to be addressed first. I don't see any issue that would justify any real change.

 

[southern442]

Different.

Part time staff are typically on permanent contracts but limited time (12hrs, weekends only etc) they often have more flexible working arrangements. There is a discussion in the general area just kicking off about part time Drivers. Worth keeping an eye on before the arguments start.

Seasonal staff are where employers hire in staff on temporary contracts just for "the season" This is done in retail a lot and suits students coming back home for the "season" They are more like temp workers than part time.

FYI TOC's are allowing part time but its highly restrictive and limited.

When I said part-time, this is what I meant. Perhaps I should have made it clearer. I was referring to extra staff (that for whatever reason could not work a full year that) being brought on at times when many other drivers aren't working. They could have their leave time during the time of year that they are not working, so for example summer and winter staff could have their leave in the spring and autumn.

 

[Chrisgr31]

How does part time drivers work with route knowledge?

 

[southern442]

How does part time drivers work with route knowledge?

Given the right training, it is highly unlikely that people will forget the routes that they are driving.

 

[tsr]

Given the right training, it is highly unlikely that people will forget the routes that they are driving.

At Southern (presumably across GTR now), route knowledge must be maintained by riding the route in question every 6 months at a bare minimum. Refreshes may also be requested before then in order to plan route knowledge provision effectively.

Unfortunately route knowledge is something that must be maintained to be useful, which takes up resources but so be it. It is no good having a vague recollection that such-and-such a place has a two-platform station, but having no idea where the braking points are in all weathers, or what the platform lengths are, etc. This sort of knowledge can drain out of you if it is not part of a routine (perhaps think of it as a "drill" in the case of diversions) every few months. Route knowledge is all about knowing all the little detail, and that's what makes you competent. If you come unstuck because you don't know how the platform-to-platform shunt at location X works when you do it on night shift at 3am, then you SPAD as a result and hit a tamper going the other way, you will by no means be thanked (actually, you might die, but anyway...). This is the sort of stuff that needs to be refreshed in many people's minds.

 

[southern442]

At Southern (presumably across GTR now), route knowledge must be maintained by riding the route in question every 6 months at a bare minimum. Refreshes may also be requested before then in order to plan route knowledge provision effectively.

Unfortunately route knowledge is something that must be maintained to be useful, which takes up resources but so be it. It is no good having a vague recollection that such-and-such a place has a two-platform station, but having no idea where the braking points are in all weathers, or what the platform lengths are, etc. This sort of knowledge can drain out of you if it is not part of a routine (perhaps think of it as a "drill" in the case of diversions) every few months. Route knowledge is all about knowing all the little detail, and that's what makes you competent. If you come unstuck because you don't know how the platform-to-platform shunt at location X works when you do it on night shift at 3am, then you SPAD as a result and hit a tamper going the other way, you will by no means be thanked (actually, you might die, but anyway...). This is the sort of stuff that needs to be refreshed in many people's minds.

That's fair enough. I know this is complicated, but would it be possible to have the 'part-time' or 'seasonal' drivers do one day every fortnight or similar to keep route knowledge fresh?

 

[ScotGG]

Fair to say to Southern side of London Bridge has settled down a fair bit?

As for the Southeastern side - pretty bad isn't it? I can't remember many peaks when most trains were on time. Tonight's the same.

 

[carriageline]

But, unbelievably the problems haven't been to do with the rebuilding or works at London Bridge, and the new signalling has been impeccable really. It's all further south that issues are occurring.

 

[Bald Rick]

But, unbelievably the problems haven't been to do with the rebuilding or works at London Bridge, and the new signalling has been impeccable really. It's all further south that issues are occurring.

Totally believable!

 

[carriageline]

Totally believable!

Sorry, didn't mean it like that! I know a lot of people are impressed, even more so following last Christmas.

 

[Deepgreen]

Today there are reported (by Southern and National Rail) to be diversions via Redhill of some trains from the Quarry route owing to signalling problems. However, RTT doesn't show a single diverted working as far as I can see. Have none actually been diverted after all, or is there a glitch on RTT?

 

[tsr]

Today there are reported (by Southern and National Rail) to be diversions via Redhill of some trains from the Quarry route owing to signalling problems. However, RTT doesn't show a single diverted working as far as I can see. Have none actually been diverted after all, or is there a glitch on RTT?

All trains are currently diverted from the Down Quarry to Down Redhill. The Down Quarry has been closed for most of the day due to a track circuit failure in the Redhill (Sand) Tunnel area and remains so. The Up Quarry is open most of the time, but some trains are also diverted from that as and when needed for engineers to access limited clearance/tunnel areas.

 

[JonathanH]

Today there are reported (by Southern and National Rail) to be diversions via Redhill of some trains from the Quarry route owing to signalling problems. However, RTT doesn't show a single diverted working as far as I can see. Have none actually been diverted after all, or is there a glitch on RTT?

RTT can't pick up trains on diverted routes and there aren't any timing points between Stoats Nest Junction and Earlswood on the Quarry Line.

The telltale sign of diversions via Redhill is Line S at Stoats Nest Junction, the fact that London Bridge to Horsham trains have extended dwell times at Redhill, half the Gatwick Express service being cancelled and London Bridge to Brighton Thameslink trains working south of Gatwick Airport only.

 

[Bishopstone]

I see both the 17.22 and 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne are cancelled tonight.

I have a family birthday, so left the office mid-afternoon and used all of my contingency, even so.

 

[Deepgreen]

Fascinating, then, that Southern's usual brilliant information system (yes - sarcasm) reported the problem as a signalling problem at Horley, with not a mention of the actual problem!! It just goes from worse to even worse with their 'information' reliability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

RTT can't pick up trains on diverted routes and there aren't any timing points between Stoats Nest Junction and Earlswood on the Quarry Line.

The telltale sign of diversions via Redhill is Line S at Stoats Nest Junction, the fact that London Bridge to Horsham trains have extended dwell times at Redhill, half the Gatwick Express service being cancelled and London Bridge to Brighton Thameslink trains working south of Gatwick Airport only.

I wonder why this very long section has no timing points - seems a little odd, considering the close spacing of many elsewhere?

 

[Bald Rick]

Fascinating, then, that Southern's usual brilliant information system (yes - sarcasm) reported the problem as a signalling problem at Horley, with not a mention of the actual problem!! It just goes from worse to even worse with their 'information' reliability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I wonder why this very long section has no timing points - seems a little odd, considering the close spacing of many elsewhere?

Timing points are almost always stations and junctions on the tracks concerned, as that is where timing is required. These are notable by their absence on the Quarries between Stoats Nest and Earlswood.

 

[Bishopstone]

My third consecutive 3-hour journey home tonight.

The 18.23 LBG-Eastbourne lost twelve minutes by Lewes, for no apparent reason. Then the Seaford branch was out of action due to a failed 313 at Seaford, I believe. Not sure why they couldn't turn trains at Newhaven Marine, but the entire branch was shut.

Quite a long wait at Lewes whilst they sourced an old bus. If only Southern had a sister company with a bus operation in a nearby city, they wouldn't need to draft-in external suppliers from further afield!

Here's another observation to illustrate the general decline. The 06.21 Eastbourne - London Bridge used to be my regular morning train, and pretty reliable. Over the last six working days it has been short-formed 8 vice 12 on three occasions, and cancelled once.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Quite a long wait at Lewes whilst they sourced an old bus. If only Southern had a sister company with a bus operation in a nearby city, they wouldn't need to draft-in external suppliers from further afield!

I trust you are jesting.....
Brighton & Hove Buses are part of the same group.
Hence the quickness to accept ticket holders on the route 12.

They just don't have spares readily available, but will sub-contract out.

 

[Deepgreen]

Having moved offices several months ago, my normal commute is now to Victoria, but I had to use London Bridge this morning. My previous regular train, 2B30 (0840 from Redhill), was its old poor self, being held for several minutes outside East Croydon and then at several signals between New Cross Gate and London Bridge. 8 late at London Bridge. If only the platform 4 and 5 starting signals overlap issue at East Croydon could be sorted out, things would run so much better there!

 

[redbutton]

If only the platform 4 and 5 starting signals overlap issue at East Croydon could be sorted out, things would run so much better there!

I'll bite. What overlap issue?

 

[Sunset route]

If only the platform 4 and 5 starting signals overlap issue at East Croydon could be sorted out, things would run so much better there!

No chance of that happening anytime soon and I can't see what could be done, so it's just a case of waiting for the East Croydon, windmill bridge, cottage, Gloucester Road, Selhurst Jcn and Norwood folk Jcn rebuild at some point around 2023. It's doesn't help that the new TDM is slower than the old one when it comes to setting routes as well.

 

[infobleep]

No chance of that happening anytime soon and I can't see what could be done, so it's just a case of waiting for the East Croydon, windmill bridge, cottage, Gloucester Road, Selhurst Jcn and Norwood folk Jcn rebuild at some point around 2023. It's doesn't help that the new TDM is slower than the old one when it comes to setting routes as well.

By being slower does that make it safer? If not what is the reason for it being slower?

 

[Sunset route]

By being slower does that make it safer? If not what is the reason for it being slower?

The railway is always fail safe, slower because it's designed to stop points swinging in the overlap while setting multiple routes thus reducing COAs while the points break and remake detention as the move from one position to the other.

 

[infobleep]

The railway is always fail safe, slower because it's designed to stop points swinging in the overlap while setting multiple routes thus reducing COAs while the points break and remake detention as the move from one position to the other.

Thanks. What are COAs?