London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[Deepgreen]

Interesting to see an influx of Southern travelling ticket inspectors recently - after not seeing any for months, I have seen three pairs on five working days! Still hardly scratching the surface of the first class problem between Victoria and East Croydon though (i.e. passengers piling on at Clapham Junction and simply sitting anywhere they choose).

I travelled via Dorking to Victoria this morning and, despite the padded timings, was still 6 late arriving! We took the fast line at Streatham Junction (after standing waiting for a gap) but may have been quicker on the slow! 377703 had a full complement of first class anti-macassars, despite it being a 'Metro' working. This 'policy' is never enforced and is a farce - no wonder passengers seem to have no idea what to do regarding first class when travelling on 377/6s and 7s - they are literally at 6s and 7s! The internal doors were continually closing and opening yet again owing to the ubiquitous fault. Tedious.

 

[LBSCR Times]

There were also reports of a driver seeing Jesus Christ on the line at Cosham and a flock of Zombie Pigmen in the London Victoria area.

You asked, you got the answer (facts).
Just because you didn't like the reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And today's delays were due to a track defect, on the Down Fast at Earlswood, at the start of the evening peak, with all traffic down via Redhill and the Slow lines, to the south end of Gatwick, for the best part of an hour!

 

[southern442]

And today's delays were due to a track defect, on the Down Fast at Earlswood, at the start of the evening peak, with all traffic down via Redhill and the Slow lines, to the south end of Gatwick, for the best part of an hour!

I was driven home today so I guess I was lucky to avoid the railways tonight!

The fact that we have several excuses running every night is getting increasingly suspicious. The level of disruption has been increasing slowly through the years. I can remember a time when there was perhaps major disruption twice a week or so; now we have several different incidents every night! And you cannot blame all of these on London Bridge. Perhaps the whole network will be at a standstill 24/7 when we get 24tph on Thameslink, who knows.

 

[Bald Rick]

And you cannot blame all of these on London Bridge.

You can't blame any of it on London Bridge!

 

[TimG]

Still hardly scratching the surface of the first class problem between Victoria and East Croydon though (i.e. passengers piling on at Clapham Junction and simply sitting anywhere they choose).

It's a victim-less crime, like punching someone in the dark.

It's not a "problem" which can be solved in rush hour, when it's impossible to walk along the train. Not sure why anyone would buy a first class season ticket!

 

[infobleep]

You asked, you got the answer (facts).
Just because you didn't like the reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And today's delays were due to a track defect, on the Down Fast at Earlswood, at the start of the evening peak, with all traffic down via Redhill and the Slow lines, to the south end of Gatwick, for the best part of an hour!

Surprisingly that didn't warrant a general note on National Rail Enquiries. They only felt it was required to be added to each service, despite some being 28 minutes late through Haywards Heath. At least 2-3 were 25 minutes or more late.

I was fortunate only 10 minutes late in my train, which was heading to Ore. It seems the 17.48 Haywards Heath to Brighton service was sent via Redhill and got overtake by layer services which seemed to have been sent via their usual route.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's a victim-less crime, like punching someone in the dark.

It's not a "problem" which can be solved in rush hour, when it's impossible to walk along the train. Not sure why anyone would buy a first class season ticket!

How is "punching someone in the dark" a victim-less crime!? What about the person punched - are they not the victim??

It is far from "impossible to walk along the train", as the pairs of ticket inspectors I have seen in the last couple of weeks have very clearly demonstrated, along with the large number of passengers who walk through (often with luggage where Gatwick is concerned) to get to the right portion.

People buy a first class season ticket for many reasons, but they all centre on one thing - being able to get a seat in comfort for the extra cost.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surprisingly that didn't warrant a general note on National Rail Enquiries. They only felt it was required to be added to each service, despite some being 28 minutes late through Haywards Heath. At least 2-3 were 25 minutes or more late.

I was fortunate only 10 minutes late in my train, which was heading to Ore. It seems the 17.48 Haywards Heath to Brighton service was sent via Redhill and got overtake by layer services which seemed to have been sent via their usual route.

Last night was the first time I think I have ever been on a train that was on time (at East Croydon), only to be told that we would now omit stops owing to congestion (i.e. Coulsdon South and Merstham). It was not explained at that time what the issue was, but the conductor did later say that the Quarry line had been closed for emergency inspection. He then said that we were omitting the two stops as all trains were routed via Redhill and that the flow of trains had to be kept on the move to avoid severe delays. Now, while there is a certain logic to this, what about those who wanted Couldson South ad Merstham - were they to be denied access for want of a couple of brief stops? We crawled through both stations at no more than 10 mph, so stopping would not have added much of a problem to the queue of trains.

 

[sarahj]

People who wanted Coulsdon South were being advised to head to Coulsdon Town and for Merstham, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley were being advised to head to Gatwick and take northbound trains back to their station. While its a plan, sometimes it works, sometimes there are just too many trains and things run slow, but there is the hope that things keep moving.

What effected my train more, who got through the issue with only a 5 min delay just before Network rail decided to shut the line, was then the level crossing at Fishbourne failing. Thus 5 mins became 9 mins late, then 12 late into Southampton, and with a timetabled turnaround of only 8 mins anyway (from a 2.45 trip). It still took 10 mins before we got a signal to get away from Southampton, we gained a bit of time, but then lost it and more as Fishbourne was still not fixed, and with all stops up the Arun valley, by the time we got to Horsham we were 18 mins late. They tried to cut out Crawley and Three Bridges, but never told me, nor the driver, so we stopped, much to the surprise of punters waiting, tho' we did miss out Redhill and Clapham. They would have tried to miss East Croydon, but I was leaving the train there (after being on for 5 1/2 hours). And to add to the fun was the group of young lads in coach 4 who boarded with about 30 cans of beer at Chi, mind the rest of the train, while passengers were frustrated, was peaceful.

The night was then made perfect on the trip back to Brighton, by being held at the Heath due to a train with smoke coming out of it at Wivelsfield, thus we were 15 mins late into Brighton.

On the plus side, the train I worked from East Croydon to London Bridge and back (22.08 dept from LB) was on time

 

[tsr]

Last night was the first time I think I have ever been on a train that was on time (at East Croydon), only to be told that we would now omit stops owing to congestion (i.e. Coulsdon South and Merstham). It was not explained at that time what the issue was, but the conductor did later say that the Quarry line had been closed for emergency inspection. He then said that we were omitting the two stops as all trains were routed via Redhill and that the flow of trains had to be kept on the move to avoid severe delays. Now, while there is a certain logic to this, what about those who wanted Couldson South ad Merstham - were they to be denied access for want of a couple of brief stops? We crawled through both stations at no more than 10 mph, so stopping would not have added much of a problem to the queue of trains.

I know exactly which train you mean. There were 2 conductors on that train, one who had been given some info about the problem with the track and the extent of the block on the Down Quarry, and the other who was given (and had to announce) the special stop order, but hadn't been able to get any detail from anyone as to what the problem was. So there were 2 people who had different info from different sources.

Unfortunately at this stage it had just been realised that the Down line from the Down Quarry at Stoats Nest right through to the Down Fast at Gatwick would have to be closed for a second line block in order to further investigate a wet bed in the worst place, at the country end of Earlswood station on the Down Fast. This meant there was a "two-track railway", barring Redhill itself, from Purley to Gatwick. The special stop for this train had to be given verbally at the very last moment. Because the information was unclear, it was coming in dribs and drabs via various people. At this point a queue was forming from Merstham Tunnel to Redhill on the Down Slow/Main, so it was evidently decided that keeping things flowing through Merstham in particular would be a priority.

As it just so happened the Down Fast was reopened alongside your train as it passed Earlswood later, which meant that omitting Earlswood and Salfords was a bit of a redundant measure, but stopping patterns had just about finally been clarified by then and there was no time to change this.

 

[infobleep]

People who wanted Coulsdon South were being advised to head to Coulsdon Town and for Merstham, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley were being advised to head to Gatwick and take northbound trains back to their station. While its a plan, sometimes it works, sometimes there are just too many trains and things run slow, but there is the hope that things keep moving.

What effected my train more, who got through the issue with only a 5 min delay just before Network rail decided to shut the line, was then the level crossing at Fishbourne failing. Thus 5 mins became 9 mins late, then 12 late into Southampton, and with a timetabled turnaround of only 8 mins anyway (from a 2.45 trip). It still took 10 mins before we got a signal to get away from Southampton, we gained a bit of time, but then lost it and more as Fishbourne was still not fixed, and with all stops up the Arun valley, by the time we got to Horsham we were 18 mins late. They tried to cut out Crawley and Three Bridges, but never told me, nor the driver, so we stopped, much to the surprise of punters waiting, tho' we did miss out Redhill and Clapham. They would have tried to miss East Croydon, but I was leaving the train there (after being on for 5 1/2 hours). And to add to the fun was the group of young lads in coach 4 who boarded with about 30 cans of beer at Chi, mind the rest of the train, while passengers were frustrated, was peaceful.

The night was then made perfect on the trip back to Brighton, by being held at the Heath due to a train with smoke coming out of it at Wivelsfield, thus we were 15 mins late into Brighton.

On the plus side, the train I worked from East Croydon to London Bridge and back (22.08 dept from LB) was on time

Couldn't they have just make you go to Victoira? Lol.

I'm guessing your replacement was waiting at East Croydon though.

 

[Deepgreen]

I know exactly which train you mean. There were 2 conductors on that train, one who had been given some info about the problem with the track and the extent of the block on the Down Quarry, and the other who was given (and had to announce) the special stop order, but hadn't been able to get any detail from anyone as to what the problem was. So there were 2 people who had different info from different sources.

Unfortunately at this stage it had just been realised that the Down line from the Down Quarry at Stoats Nest right through to the Down Fast at Gatwick would have to be closed for a second line block in order to further investigate a wet bed in the worst place, at the country end of Earlswood station on the Down Fast. This meant there was a "two-track railway", barring Redhill itself, from Purley to Gatwick. The special stop for this train had to be given verbally at the very last moment. Because the information was unclear, it was coming in dribs and drabs via various people. At this point a queue was forming from Merstham Tunnel to Redhill on the Down Slow/Main, so it was evidently decided that keeping things flowing through Merstham in particular would be a priority.

As it just so happened the Down Fast was reopened alongside your train as it passed Earlswood later, which meant that omitting Earlswood and Salfords was a bit of a redundant measure, but stopping patterns had just about finally been clarified by then and there was no time to change this.

Thanks for the information. Do you happen to know what caused the wet bed suddenly to become a problem when they form over many weeks or months? I also wonder why there were two (on duty?) conductors on the train anyway?

 

[sarahj]

Couldn't they have just make you go to Victoira? Lol.

I'm guessing your replacement was waiting at East Croydon though.

I would then have missed my break which was 7 1/2 hours into my job, and right down to the minimum and they would have had to cancel the Croydon to London Bridge and back train. My replacement was there, but they arrived a bit late, guess they had given up, I think the P staff were thinking it was going to be DOO for the non stop run to Vic.


For Deepgreen, sometimes there are two conductors on one train as one is passing to work their next train. If your passing and have more information that the conductor working that train, you pass that info on. You may also hear further info on a train when there is a changeover at say Croydon etc, where the new conductor getting on has more info that the one that just got off. Sometimes the info comes in thick and fast, you dont even have time to scan though the emails hitting you, looking through a group of 20 emails to find the one you need, while at the same time as working a train, selling tickets, taking questions........meanwhile the email you open up talks about a ticket office closure, issue at the other end of the network, or lists 10 trains being changed on one email....

 

[tsr]

Thanks for the information. Do you happen to know what caused the wet bed suddenly to become a problem when they form over many weeks or months? I also wonder why there were two (on duty?) conductors on the train anyway?

From what I hear, there was a sudden deterioration in ride quality over the site which required it to be checked in case an ESR/TSR needed imposing. Not 100% on the nature of the issue though.

Plenty of trains have multiple conductors. In Southern's case this is usually because a second conductor is "assisting" en-route to where they pick up their next train. This was the situation here. I believe there may have actually been a third conductor somewhere too, just "passing" to their next service rather than booked to assist. Unsure on that one.

 

[Deepgreen]

From what I hear, there was a sudden deterioration in ride quality over the site which required it to be checked in case an ESR/TSR needed imposing. Not 100% on the nature of the issue though.

Plenty of trains have multiple conductors. In Southern's case this is usually because a second conductor is "assisting" en-route to where they pick up their next train. This was the situation here.

Thanks again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The night was then made perfect on the trip back to Brighton, by being held at the Heath due to a train with smoke coming out of it at Wivelsfield, thus we were 15 mins late into Brighton.

Are you sure the smoke wasn't coming from the passengers - I suspect many will have been smouldering at least?!

 

[sarahj]

Thanks again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Are you sure the smoke wasn't coming from the passengers - I suspect many will have been smouldering at least?!

The train that 'broke' was an empty service. While we are at the Heath we opened the doors as the train was not due to stop. One punter got off and tho' we informed him that trains were running and we would be on the move very shortly, he just ignored me and the platform guy, and fumed his way down the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I hear, there was a sudden deterioration in ride quality over the site which required it to be checked in case an ESR/TSR needed imposing. Not 100% on the nature of the issue though.

Plenty of trains have multiple conductors. In Southern's case this is usually because a second conductor is "assisting" en-route to where they pick up their next train. This was the situation here. I believe there may have actually been a third conductor somewhere too, just "passing" to their next service rather than booked to assist. Unsure on that one.

Funnt thing about my job yesterday was that I was booked assit on the TL train I was using to get from the Heath to Bridges, but Passing on the Southern trains from Brighton to Hove and Croydon to Brighton on a DOO service. *I then assisted the driver when we came to a halt at the Heath.

 

[tsr]

Funnt thing about my job yesterday was that I was booked assit on the TL train I was using to get from the Heath to Bridges, but Passing on the Southern trains from Brighton to Hove and Croydon to Brighton on a DOO service. *I then assisted the driver when we came to a halt at the Heath.

It certainly can be a bit weird. There's more than one job out there that has "Assist" from East Croydon to Selhurst... all of 90 seconds if it goes to plan! Also, I reckon some Thameslink drivers would have a bit of a heart attack if a conductor picked up the cab-to-cab and started talking to them. Some of them really do seem to be working on a completely different planet from the Southern one (not all, though, by any stretch of the imagination).

 

[sarahj]

It certainly can be a bit weird. There's more than one job out there that has "Assist" from East Croydon to Selhurst... all of 90 seconds if it goes to plan! Also, I reckon some Thameslink drivers would have a bit of a heart attack if a conductor picked up the cab-to-cab and started talking to them. Some of them really do seem to be working on a completely different planet from the Southern one (not all, though, by any stretch of the imagination).

It is funny when you do Cab to Cab a TL driver. It must come as a bit of a surprise when their button lights up.

 

[Sunset route]

From what I hear, there was a sudden deterioration in ride quality over the site which required it to be checked in case an ESR/TSR needed imposing.

It will always be an ESR as TSRs have to be published

 

[infobleep]

I would then have missed my break which was 7 1/2 hours into my job, and right down to the minimum and they would have had to cancel the Croydon to London Bridge and back train. My replacement was there, but they arrived a bit late, guess they had given up, I think the P staff were thinking it was going to be DOO for the non stop run to Vic.


For Deepgreen, sometimes there are two conductors on one train as one is passing to work their next train. If your passing and have more information that the conductor working that train, you pass that info on. You may also hear further info on a train when there is a changeover at say Croydon etc, where the new conductor getting on has more info that the one that just got off. Sometimes the info comes in thick and fast, you dont even have time to scan though the emails hitting you, looking through a group of 20 emails to find the one you need, while at the same time as working a train, selling tickets, taking questions........meanwhile the email you open up talks about a ticket office closure, issue at the other end of the network, or lists 10 trains being changed on one email....

Would it be possible to improve the communication or would that mean your more likely to miss something. Looks like you might as it is!

I like reading about what goes on, on the railway. Cheers everyone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It certainly can be a bit weird. There's more than one job out there that has "Assist" from East Croydon to Selhurst... all of 90 seconds if it goes to plan! Also, I reckon some Thameslink drivers would have a bit of a heart attack if a conductor picked up the cab-to-cab and started talking to them. Some of them really do seem to be working on a completely different planet from the Southern one (not all, though, by any stretch of the imagination).

Is their a good reason for that? I guess if a train breaks down it might be useful or you end up taking 5 minutes instead of 90 seconds and a passenger nearby has a question.

 

[ScotGG]

No trains at all into or out of Charing Cross for the last 20/30 mins. Signal problems around London Bridge.

 

[carriageline]

Points failure outside London Bridge

 

[southern442]

It was partly my fault as I did go a longer way today, but I ended up being half an hour late to school today. Trains being late for no given reason, then the train behind it still listed as being on time despite there was no way it could be

Another oddity I saw this morning was a train that arrived perfectly on time, but then crawled along so painfully slowly (there was no way that it could've been due to congestion as the last train on the line left 18 minutes previously) that we arrived at the final stop 6 minutes late.

Also tonight on the way home the 16:40 from East Croydon came a minute or so late (no explanation given) and arrived at Upper Warlingham 5 minutes late... I really don't understand why this happens. Although the voices in my head told me it was due to a pufferfish doing the Rumba with a bottle of Heinz ketchup on the line between Balcombe and Haywards Heath.

 

[FOH]

The new timetable has so much padding and trains are still finding themselves late at most stations, on top of the longer journey times already.

If anyone wants to see a great example of padding take a look at this - my journey from Monday, no wonder PPM is improving.

 

[southern442]

If anyone wants to see a great example of padding take a look at this - my journey from Monday, no wonder PPM is improving.

Oh my god!

Also how in the world do they expect it to do Forest Hill to Honor Oak Park in 2 minutes? Is the distance between the stations that small? The new timetable is really crap like that, there are a few situations where some stations have a 2-minute headway between two services that has probably never been achieved.

Today I travelled on the 18:42 from Whyteleafe to East Croydon, where it arrived at 19:01, almost 20 minutes after. For a journey of less than 7 miles. This has to be one of the most incompetently-run companies I have ever seen in my life.

 

[MikeWh]

Also how in the world do they expect it to do Forest Hill to Honor Oak Park in 2 minutes? Is the distance between the stations that small?

Yes, the distance is so small that the train actually did it in less than 2 minutes.

I can remember years ago when the gap between most pairs of stations on that line was 2 minutes, and they usually managed to keep to time as well.

 

[redbutton]

Oh my god!

Also how in the world do they expect it to do Forest Hill to Honor Oak Park in 2 minutes? Is the distance between the stations that small?

Getting from one station to the other in 2 minutes is easily done assuming green signals. It's fairly steep downhill and a pretty short distance.

However, can I leave Forest Hill, accelerate to speed, brake safely, stop, check I'm at the right stop mark, release the doors, wait for the inevitable crowds at that time of morning, close up, check again and wait for people to step back, then depart all in 2 minutes?

Unlikely. That's the problem with the timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

Oh my god!

Also how in the world do they expect it to do Forest Hill to Honor Oak Park in 2 minutes? Is the distance between the stations that small? The new timetable is really crap like that, there are a few situations where some stations have a 2-minute headway between two services that has probably never been achieved.

Today I travelled on the 18:42 from Whyteleafe to East Croydon, where it arrived at 19:01, almost 20 minutes after. For a journey of less than 7 miles. This has to be one of the most incompetently-run companies I have ever seen in my life.

Why shouldn't it take 19 minutes to travel from Whyteleafe to East Croydon on a train that stops at Kenley, Purley, Purley Oaks and South Croydon? The few extra minutes at Purley provide an element of robustness into what is a congested portion of railway north from there.

Any operator of the services on this line would do exactly the same thing.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Why shouldn't it take 19 minutes to travel from Whyteleafe to East Croydon on a train that stops at Kenley, Purley, Purley Oaks and South Croydon? The few extra minutes at Purley provide an element of robustness into what is a congested portion of railway north from there.

The 4 minutes at Purley also permit a change in to a faster service, albeit with only 2 minutes to make the connection.
In this instance, the Caterham is at Purley from 18.48 until 18.52, whilst the service from Horsham departs at 18.50, so the Caterham couldn't depart earlier (and even if it wanted to, the Tattenham service leaves Purley at 18.45..

 

[tsr]

Is their a good reason for that? I guess if a train breaks down it might be useful or you end up taking 5 minutes instead of 90 seconds and a passenger nearby has a question.

You don't really usually do anything during that time unless it's all gone horribly wrong, as you suggest. The driver may see you board, but chances of you needing to assist them or you feeling the need to revenue checks in the 90 seconds usually taken would be, shall we say, slim.

Booked "Assist" (or "ASST" as it's printed) on a diagram can be useful on much longer journeys, but even then it's not unknown by any stretch of the imagination for assisting guards simply not to be there. There's nothing to stop you boarding an earlier train to the same place. If you do end up on the train you're scheduled to be on, though, it's always polite to offer your assistance to the driver or to any guard booked to work the service, if they need it.

 

[infobleep]

You don't really usually do anything during that time unless it's all gone horribly wrong, as you suggest. The driver may see you board, but chances of you needing to assist them or you feeling the need to revenue checks in the 90 seconds usually taken would be, shall we say, slim.

Booked "Assist" (or "ASST" as it's printed) on a diagram can be useful on much longer journeys, but even then it's not unknown by any stretch of the imagination for assisting guards simply not to be there. There's nothing to stop you boarding an earlier train to the same place. If you do end up on the train you're scheduled to be on, though, it's always polite to offer your assistance to the driver or to any guard booked to work the service, if they need it.

Thanks for the explanation.