London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[Deepgreen]

Ghastly this morning at Redhill. The 0831 Victoria (ex-Horsham) was cancelled - no crew. The 0840 London Bridge was cancelled on arrival at Redhill (portions from Tonbridge and Reigate) - no crew, and the 0853 Victoria was 4 instead of 8 cars - the Horsham portion was cancelled - no crew! So we had 21 cars-worth of passengers on 4! No announcement from the crew of the 0853 - no apology/explanation, no formal first class declassification (although it had already been self-declassified by the passengers!). Nothing to do with 'Imogen' yet, so I dread to think what it will be like later when the wind does pick up! Absolutely disgraceful from Southern to have got into this dire crewing situation.

 

[infobleep]

Ghastly this morning at Redhill. The 0831 Victoria (ex-Horsham) was cancelled - no crew. The 0840 London Bridge was cancelled on arrival at Redhill (portions from Tonbridge and Reigate) - no crew, and the 0853 Victoria was 4 instead of 8 cars - the Horsham portion was cancelled - no crew! So we had 21 cars-worth of passengers on 4! No announcement from the crew of the 0853 - no apology/explanation, no formal first class declassification (although it had already been self-declassified by the passengers!). Nothing to do with 'Imogen' yet, so I dread to think what it will be like later when the wind does pick up! Absolutely disgraceful from Southern to have got into this dire crewing situation.

Did you all make it aboard the train or did people get left behind?

 

[Deepgreen]

Did you all make it aboard the train or did people get left behind?

I made it on at Redhill, but I'm pretty sure some were left behind at Merstham and Coulsdon South. They had already had two consecutive London-bound cancellations, and were destined to wait for yet another train - whenever that may have appeared!
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Similar chaos at Redhill this evening, with platform 2 occupied from about 1710 until at least 1750 by what should have been a London Bridge train but for which there was no driver available and which therefore ran ECS to Gatwick after protracted discussions with platform staff and almost no information provided (yet again)! The 1743 to Reading arrived at about 1745 and stopped short at platform 1B, despite being announced as arriving at platform 1A (the London end) as it should have done, resulting in a scrum to get on by people who had been at the expected platform dashing down to the other end! Why it stopped short is anyone's guess, but it just added to the chaos as it prevented the 1741 to Gatwick from using platform 1B as it usually does, delaying that train even more outside the station when there should (and could) have been a platform free for it.

Prior to that, my train, the 1632 from Victoria to Tonbridge, was held on the Quarry down fast at Stoat's Nest junction with a green signal on the Redhill down for a Thameslink working which was still crawling from yellows to reds between Purley Oaks and Purley when we had just overtaken it at full speed (about 90mph) a minute or so earlier. After about five minutes standing at Stoat's Nest, the green on the Redhill down was changed to red, several more minutes elapsed and we then eventually set off. As we were scheduled to be non-stop to Redhill, this was yet another bizarre signalling decision in the Purley area, which does seem to suffer a lot of these. The conductor announced the delay as being a result of congestion, but there was certainly nothing anywhere near ahead of us and we ran under greens all the way into Redhill non-stop.

 

[FOH]

Witnessed the predictable communication carnage this evening. Again, trains that are On Time until their departure time, disappear, then reappear 2 mins late, then a little more, then become Delayed and finally Cancelled.

I said this before, I sure understand it's difficult running trains, communicating effectively however should not be.

 

[redbutton]

Ghastly this morning at Redhill. The 0831 Victoria (ex-Horsham) was cancelled - no crew. The 0840 London Bridge was cancelled on arrival at Redhill (portions from Tonbridge and Reigate) - no crew, and the 0853 Victoria was 4 instead of 8 cars - the Horsham portion was cancelled - no crew! So we had 21 cars-worth of passengers on 4! No announcement from the crew of the 0853 - no apology/explanation, no formal first class declassification (although it had already been self-declassified by the passengers!). Nothing to do with 'Imogen' yet, so I dread to think what it will be like later when the wind does pick up! Absolutely disgraceful from Southern to have got into this dire crewing situation.

To be fair, the crew may have known the train was short-formed (we don't always), but it's unlikely they would have known about previous cancelled trains, except of course for the obvious crowding.

 

[RichJF]

Yesterday (8th Feb) was an aberration getting home. Left work around 18:15 to get the 18:55 from London Bridge. London Bridge was a nightmare, passengers pushing police/staff out the way to get on a crushed East Grinstead service. The Caterham/Tattenham was split into a Tattenham 4 coach & crush loaded. An Epsom train was unlocked on Pl14 with about 2 minutes before departure, then very quickly closed the doors & left leaving people stuck on the platform.

Empty coaches to form the Horsham service turned up at 19:00. Train didn't leave until around 19:10. The train then sat at NXG for almost 10mins for no reason. All other Redhill trains cancelled at Croydon so everybody piled on. The train was then held at a red signal at Purley for about 5-10mins despite Stoats Nest-Redhill being clear. Finally arrived at Redhill about 20:00! :cry:

 

[Deepgreen]

Yesterday (8th Feb) was an aberration getting home. Left work around 18:15 to get the 18:55 from London Bridge. London Bridge was a nightmare, passengers pushing police/staff out the way to get on a crushed East Grinstead service. The Caterham/Tattenham was split into a Tattenham 4 coach & crush loaded. An Epsom train was unlocked on Pl14 with about 2 minutes before departure, then very quickly closed the doors & left leaving people stuck on the platform.

Empty coaches to form the Horsham service turned up at 19:00. Train didn't leave until around 19:10. The train then sat at NXG for almost 10mins for no reason. All other Redhill trains cancelled at Croydon so everybody piled on. The train was then held at a red signal at Purley for about 5-10mins despite Stoats Nest-Redhill being clear. Finally arrived at Redhill about 20:00! :cry:

The wait at NXG would have been for some reason, it just wasn't obvious what it was.

The Purley situation is increasingly bizarre - I have been involved (as a passenger) in a few seemingly odd signalling decisions recently, mainly involving being held for several minutes on the down fast/Quarry signal at Stoat's Nest in order to allow a Thameslink working that had been way behind us, and which was also non-stop to Redhill as we were, to pass us while we block up the down Quarry line, OR, as in the case yesterday, to sit there with the down Redhill signal at green for five minutes, also with a Thameslink working way behind us, only to have the signal changed to red and our route then cleared after several more minutes, again blocking the down Quarry for well over five minutes.

Interesting also this morning, in that we had two teams of revenue inspectors checking first class, one pair from Redhill to East Croydon (who checked on each passenger who entered the section along the route), then a different pair approaching Victoria! This after a complete 'drought' of many, many months up until about a month ago. Did Southern sack all of its Revenue Inspectors and then recruit another batch?

 

[Minstral25]

Ghastly at Redhill again today! 7:23 VIC short formed (8 of 12), 7:40 LBG was 4 coaches of 12 (nightmare as train usually packed) plus missed MHM, 7:53 late and short plus missed several stations, 08:02 VIC only 4 from 12 coaches, 08:11 Blackfriars only 4 from 8 as well. A lot of people very late for work.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Ghastly at Redhill again today! 7:23 VIC short formed (8 of 12), 7:40 LBG was 4 coaches of 12 (nightmare as train usually packed) plus missed MHM, 7:53 late and short plus missed several stations, 08:02 VIC only 4 from 12 coaches, 08:11 Blackfriars only 4 from 8 as well. A lot of people very late for work.

Obviously your MP doesn't make as much noise as some further down the line, or over on the Oxted line, do......
Hence certain trains are virtually ring-fenced!

 

[southern442]

Obviously your MP doesn't make as much noise as some further down the line, or over on the Oxted line, do......
Hence certain trains are virtually ring-fenced!

I haven't heard my local MP (Sam Gyimah) make much noise about it, I must be missing out...

 

[LBSCR Times]

I haven't heard my local MP (Sam Gyimah) make much noise about it, I must be missing out...

Probably drowned out by the noise from East Grinstead.....

 

[Deepgreen]

1649 Victoria to Three Bridges and Reigate cancelled at 1655 - no crew! Packed onto 1702 Brighton, then waited at East Croydon for following late-running 1736 Three Bridges and Reigate, which was bursting. Missed Betchworth connection at Redhill - nearly an hour's wait.
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Had to catch the 0840 from Redhill to London Bridge this morning because the 0831 Victoria couldn't be held for a few seconds to allow us to cross from the Reading arrival! Had high hopes for this 'misery train' as we sailed non-stop into East Croydon from Purley (RT), but these were soon dashed by having to wait several mintes at Norwood Fork Jct for an ECS to crawl across us into Selhurst depot, then the familiar crawl from Bermondsey to LB - 7 late.

 

[southern442]

Took 11 minutes to get from Selhurst to West Croydon today - stopped 3 times I believe. For a 1 mile journey, that's a miserable average speed of just under 5.5 mph.

 

[infobleep]

1649 Victoria to Three Bridges and Reigate cancelled at 1655 - no crew! Packed onto 1702 Brighton, then waited at East Croydon for following late-running 1736 Three Bridges and Reigate, which was bursting. Missed Betchworth connection at Redhill - nearly an hour's wait.
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Had to catch the 0840 from Redhill to London Bridge this morning because the 0831 Victoria couldn't be held for a few seconds to allow us to cross from the Reading arrival! Had high hopes for this 'misery train' as we sailed non-stop into East Croydon from Purley (RT), but these were soon dashed by having to wait several mintes at Norwood Fork Jct for an ECS to crawl across us into Selhurst depot, then the familiar crawl from Bermondsey to LB - 7 late.

Would holding the Victoria train at Redhill lead to delays further up the line?

Wednesday morning the 7.45 Guildford to Waterloo service had a door fault. At the last minute the staton announcer said people could go to platform 3 and catch the 7.54 to Waterloo. He then asked staff on that platform to hold the train. That train then left late.

Now that train uses the Cobham line and perhaps there is a gap after it long enough for it to not delay trains. Surely thought it would delay trains north of Surbiton if it misses it's slot there. As it was it ended up into Waterloo 2 minutes late so it did cause a delay, a bet small one.

That kind of helpful services is never done in the evening at Woking if the train to Basingstoke is late and the train to Portsmouth is due to leave on platform 4. It would lead to delays elsewhere is what would be cited, which may well be the case, as it was with the 7.54.

 

[Minstral25]

Obviously your MP doesn't make as much noise as some further down the line, or over on the Oxted line, do......
Hence certain trains are virtually ring-fenced!

Reigate MP got a full parliamentary debate on the subject at which Claire Perry almost forgot that there is a separate Redhill route and kept talking about the Brighton Main Line which had little to do with our services, so nothing happened as usual.
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I haven't heard my local MP (Sam Gyimah) make much noise about it, I must be missing out...

Who?

Most useless MP I've ever known

 

[Deepgreen]

Dire again today. No trains between Redhill and Tonbridge owing to iced juice rails. When I left home the air temperature was 2.5C, so rail temperatures could not have been much lower than -1C. We had a very light rain shower at some point which obviously froze on the rails. However, it seems that Electrostars are so delicate that they cannot even cope with that, whereas earlier stock would have got through.

The 0831 left at exactly the same time as the ex-Reading GWR train arrived at Redhill, rather than waiting fifteen seconds for people to cross over the island platform! So...I had to brave the 0840 London Bridge again, which had been cancelled from both Reigate (why - the rails weren't iced there?) and Tonbridge. A unit appeared from the Earlswood direction and pulled into platform 2 under repeated announcements that it was not in service. The train doors were released, so, knowing the appalling mis-information that pervades Redhill, the unit immediately filled with passengers who knew better than the staff, and sure enough, it suddenly became the 0840 to London Bridge. We set off extremely full - first class had no spare seats owing to those who chose to de-classify it themselves! Various delays en route as usual - ten late at London Bridge. No apology issued. Dreadful.

 

[blotred]

I honestly could not understand why there were 5 cancellations to both Victoria and London Bridge on the Metro (via Selhurst) this morning peak, considering Metro services don't come from the communicated (Redhill-Tonbridge, Lewes-Haywards Heath) affected areas.

Unless its another communication fail from Southern, which would not be at all surprising.

 

[Deepgreen]

The BBC News web-site now has a story in the Surrey section. I won't pass judgement on its content - just mentioned for information.

 

[theageofthetra]

The ever woeful rag The Standard are up to their usual low journalistic standard reporting problems between Redhill and Tornbridge. Media having a field day with this.

 

[Deepgreen]

I honestly could not understand why there were 5 cancellations to both Victoria and London Bridge on the Metro (via Selhurst) this morning peak, considering Metro services don't come from the communicated (Redhill-Tonbridge, Lewes-Haywards Heath) affected areas.

Unless its another communication fail from Southern, which would not be at all surprising.

Their "Communication Fails" include two train indicators at Redhill having been broken for over two months now, with their responses to my complaints merely saying they don't know when they can be fixed as it will require a possession! As one of them is in the waiting room, and the other on the platform, both of which have been repaired previously without apparently requiring possessions, this just doesn't wash. If the platform indicator (on platform 2) has to be repaired without trains passing it, then divert the very few (if any) trains that use the platform overnight via platform 1. Meanwhile, we are just left with nothing but sporadic, and often wrong, P.A. announcements.

 

[RichJF]

Dire again today. No trains between Redhill and Tonbridge owing to iced juice rails. When I left home the air temperature was 2.5C, so rail temperatures could not have been much lower than -1C. We had a very light rain shower at some point which obviously froze on the rails. However, it seems that Electrostars are so delicate that they cannot even cope with that, whereas earlier stock would have got through.

The 0831 left at exactly the same time as the ex-Reading GWR train arrived at Redhill, rather than waiting fifteen seconds for people to cross over the island platform! So...I had to brave the 0840 London Bridge again, which had been cancelled from both Reigate (why - the rails weren't iced there?) and Tonbridge. A unit appeared from the Earlswood direction and pulled into platform 2 under repeated announcements that it was not in service. The train doors were released, so, knowing the appalling mis-information that pervades Redhill, the unit immediately filled with passengers who knew better than the staff, and sure enough, it suddenly became the 0840 to London Bridge. We set off extremely full - first class had no spare seats owing to those who chose to de-classify it themselves! Various delays en route as usual - ten late at London Bridge. No apology issued. Dreadful.

Try the 07:40. The front 4 coaches sat at platform 1A from 07:00 (supposed to be Reigate service). Lots of passenger decided to wait on platform 1 or board those coaches. Then the remaining 8 coaches arrived from Three Bridges: Passengers guessing correct & the announcement only declaring platform alteration as the train was at the platform.

The ice problem is bizarre. It was -4 at my house in Outwood (my motorbike gauge), then the temp rose to +2 degrees at top Nutfield. There seemed like there was a heavy dew which fell that froze to the conductor rail. Network Rail are saying they didn't run any de-icers/proving trains at all due to 'over-running engineering works' which I'm sceptical of tbh. :cry:

 

[Deepgreen]

Try the 07:40. The front 4 coaches sat at platform 1A from 07:00 (supposed to be Reigate service). Lots of passenger decided to wait on platform 1 or board those coaches. Then the remaining 8 coaches arrived from Three Bridges: Passengers guessing correct & the announcement only declaring platform alteration as the train was at the platform.

The ice problem is bizarre. It was -4 at my house in Outwood (my motorbike gauge), then the temp rose to +2 degrees at top Nutfield. There seemed like there was a heavy dew which fell that froze to the conductor rail. Network Rail are saying they didn't run any de-icers/proving trains at all due to 'over-running engineering works' which I'm sceptical of tbh. :cry:

I can actually believe the NR explanation as there do seem to have been one or more sets of over-running works, but the irritation is that modern stock seems to be far less able to cope with ice than its predecessors. The complex electronics on today's trains seem to stymie attempts to run in anything but good juice rail conditions. Add to this, of course, the legendary poor information provision at Redhill (see my earlier note about the seemingly-abandoned broken screens there) and you have annoyed passengers!

Would I be right in thinking that you live in a low-lying spot? Areas of low land can become what are called 'frost hollows' when cold air sinks to the lowest points and pools there, intensifying the low temperature. Climbing out of the low area often sees the temperature rise significantly, which may explain your -4 to +2 difference.

 

[RichJF]

I can actually believe the NR explanation as there do seem to have been one or more sets of over-running works, but the irritation is that modern stock seems to be far less able to cope with ice than its predecessors. The complex electronics on today's trains seem to stymie attempts to run in anything but good juice rail conditions. Add to this, of course, the legendary poor information provision at Redhill (see my earlier note about the seemingly-abandoned broken screens there) and you have annoyed passengers!

Would I be right in thinking that you live in a low-lying spot? Areas of low land can become what are called 'frost hollows' when cold air sinks to the lowest points and pools there, intensifying the low temperature. Climbing out of the low area often sees the temperature rise significantly, which may explain your -4 to +2 difference.

I live in the Outwood/Horne/Redhill Aerodrome area. So it can get quite dicey in deepest winter. Exactly as you say, my house is icy, the dip by Redhill Aerodrome can get down to -5/6 & be treacherous whereas the A25 is above freezing and the roads wet.

Some of the Southeastern services are arriving at LBG/VIC almost 3 hours late, so Southern got off less severely.

 

[zoneking]

Absolutely pathetic that in the 21st century we have not come up with an effective way of preventing this icing problem in the southern region. It is far worse than it used to be.

 

[Deepgreen]

Absolutely pathetic that in the 21st century we have not come up with an effective way of preventing this icing problem in the southern region. It is far worse than it used to be.

It's not good, but I think the issue nowadays is the delicacy/complexity of the rolling stock (compared with the slam-door era's robustness and lack of complex electronics), rather than frequency of icy conditions.

Incidentally, Southern's apology on their web site refers to it not being safe to run trains this morning - apart from the tiny risk of a fire from arcing (I imagine 377s shut down long before this could happen) - surely it wasn't safety that was the issue, but a straightforward lack of forward movement? A cynic might say that Southern were using the 'cover-all safety card' unjustifiably here.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's not good, but I think the issue nowadays is the delicacy/complexity of the rolling stock (compared with the slam-door era's robustness and lack of complex electronics), rather than frequency of icy conditions.

Incidentally, Southern's apology on their web site refers to it not being safe to run trains this morning - apart from the tiny risk of a fire from arcing (I imagine 377s shut down long before this could happen) - surely it wasn't safety that was the issue, but a straightforward lack of forward movement? A cynic might say that Southern were using the 'cover-all safety card' unjustifiably here.

The trains do shut down, and that's the problem. As you then have a train full of increasingly frustrated commuters who, eventually, will detrain themselves. And that is a safety issue, particularly if you have several trains in a section. So the principle (roughly) is that as soon as one train has failed (or struggled badly) on a line of route, nothing else proceeds until it has warmed up or has been proven clear.

Another reason why OLE is better. (Very icy in OLE land last night, massive arcing this morning, trains ran as normal).


I have heard numerous stories from the slam door era, eg guards physically holding the breakers in on the motor coaches to keep the trains going, and where fuses have blown being replaced with tightly rolled silver foil etc. And of course, numerous traction motor burn outs (often with resulting fires).

 

[southern442]

Who?

Most useless MP I've ever known

A former Tory whip apparently; East Surrey is a really safe Conservative seat which is a shame as this guy contradicted himself so many times in the election leaflet.

P.S. Train today arrived home 3 minutes late for absolutely no reason.

 

[carriageline]

I doubt there was "absolutely no reason whatsoever"

If you wanted to PM me your journey details, I can look into why you was delayed and give you an answer?

 

[physics34]

The trains do shut down, and that's the problem. As you then have a train full of increasingly frustrated commuters who, eventually, will detrain themselves. And that is a safety issue, particularly if you have several trains in a section. So the principle (roughly) is that as soon as one train has failed (or struggled badly) on a line of route, nothing else proceeds until it has warmed up or has been proven clear.

Another reason why OLE is better. (Very icy in OLE land last night, massive arcing this morning, trains ran as normal).


I have heard numerous stories from the slam door era, eg guards physically holding the breakers in on the motor coaches to keep the trains going, and where fuses have blown being replaced with tightly rolled silver foil etc. And of course, numerous traction motor burn outs (often with resulting fires).

i still believe the 377 "overload" system (LIMS??) is probably overkill. The moment of a slight power surge and then shut off. It most of been considered before hand that there would be lots of arcing and sparking in icy conditions.

I remember only a few years ago only just making it into tattenham corner by coasting as the unit had started to load shed out side of the station.

I think i heard this but not too sure that 377s shoes also have lighter contact on the conductor rail than 455s/slammers did.

 

[Skoodle]

Electrostars are fitted with an "ICE Mode", which prevents the LIMs (Line Interference Module) from having a fit when not being able to draw as much power due to ice or snow on the conductor rail.

De-icer trains also place deicing fluid on to the conductor rail as they travel in service.

These however do not help when the rails are so icy you struggle to gain any traction.