London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[Deepgreen]

All lines at East Croydon are now open for Christmas Eve afternoon service recovery. Actually, service recovery does seem to be going OK at the moment, though I don't like to tempt fate (apologies if I do...!).



I'm pretty sure the bridge works are mentioned on the publicity posters. What hasn't been mentioned is the apparent major track renewal work in the Merstham area. I'll need to look that up myself, as I'm unsure what's going on with that.

The bridge works are not mentioned on the Southern web site and, yes, I also noticed a lot of ballast (looked like several hundred 1 ton bags!) and track panels at the growing rail yard between the Quarry and Redhill lines just north of Merstham.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's many different items of work, including major works to a cutting, the bridge replacement, substation renewals, heavy maintenance on the track at East Croydon, cable route works, and of course the S&C at Purley (17 units). The track renewal is rerailing only, about 2km on the Redhills.

The bridge job is later in the programme, it doesn't arrive for a few days yet, and gets put in towards the end of the possession.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All lines at East Croydon are now open for Christmas Eve afternoon service recovery. Actually, service recovery does seem to be going OK at the moment, though I don't like to tempt fate (apologies if I do...!).

There's been so many cancellations because of crew shortages that recovery will be slightly easier as there are fewer trains on the network to get in each other's way. Nevertheless, there will be late running and cancellations for the rest of the day I imagine.

This fatality has been a particularly difficult one.

 

[southern442]

Literally every weekday since the introduction of the timetable has been caked in disruption. Pathetic.

 

[Bald Rick]

Literally every weekday since the introduction of the timetable has been caked in disruption. Pathetic.

Not been good. But today was rather unfortunate. A fatality initially classified as suspicious at East Croydon is never going to result in a decent service.

(Only around 1% of railway fatalities are classified suspicious, and this requires a much more detailed and lengthy investigation by BTP, and therefore it is more disruptive.)

 

[southern442]

Not been good. But today was rather unfortunate. A fatality initially classified as suspicious at East Croydon is never going to result in a decent service.

(Only around 1% of railway fatalities are classified suspicious, and this requires a much more detailed and lengthy investigation by BTP, and therefore it is more disruptive.)

Yes of course. There is nothing we can do about fatalities, we just have to let them slide. Today was perhaps unlucky rather than the system's fault.

Why was it classed as suspicious? And what does that mean about the circumstances?

 

[Bald Rick]

Why was it classed as suspicious? And what does that mean about the circumstances?

You'd have to ask BTP that.

 

[southern442]

You'd have to ask BTP that.

Having (skim) read a document about fatalities (that I might have a better look at later) it says this on suspicious fatalities:

where the injuries do not appear to be related to the circumstances or, where the
victim was seen to be pushed into the path of a train

which means that long disruption for a full investigation would be understandable. Unfortunate given the time of year too.

Was East Croydon completely shut? Or were there some services passing through it?

 

[Busaholic]

'Sorry: stray dog on the line at Tadworth. Your key Cambridge commuter train is cancelled. Please go away and use Greater Anglia from Liverpool Street.'

I still say they should have built two sub-surface terminal stations somewhere in the vicinity of City Thameslink. One facing north and the other south. Then joined them with a travelator for when Auntie Doris from Harpenden wants to go and see her niece in Hassocks.

Or found a way to four-track the section where AC gives way to DC, even if the additional tracks were in separate tunnels not physically adjacent to the existing lines. A difficult problem, costing plenty of dosh but not insoluble.

 

[Gav Mack]

There's many different items of work, including major works to a cutting, the bridge replacement, substation renewals, heavy maintenance on the track at East Croydon, cable route works, and of course the S&C at Purley (17 units). The track renewal is rerailing only, about 2km on the Redhills.

The bridge job is later in the programme, it doesn't arrive for a few days yet, and gets put in towards the end of the possession.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There's been so many cancellations because of crew shortages that recovery will be slightly easier as there are fewer trains on the network to get in each other's way. Nevertheless, there will be late running and cancellations for the rest of the day I imagine.

This fatality has been a particularly difficult one.

A Purley resident here who's family have hardly had a wink of sleep last night - they appear to have lifted out the southbound slow points north of the station going to 4/5/6 platforms this morning so far. You haven't got a more detailed engineering schedule of the works at Purley have you please so we can decide when that missus who's suffering from a serious illness can decide to go and sleep at her mum and dads or not away from the noise.

The devil is in all the big detail and all the information we've got which is basically carte blanche from now until the new year is wholly inadequate for what I need right now.

Cheers

 

[Bald Rick]

A Purley resident here who's family have hardly had a wink of sleep last night - they appear to have lifted out the southbound slow points north of the station going to 4/5/6 platforms this morning so far. You haven't got a more detailed engineering schedule of the works at Purley have you please so we can decide when that missus who's suffering from a serious illness can decide to go and sleep at her mum and dads or not away from the noise.

The devil is in all the big detail and all the information we've got which is basically carte blanche from now until the new year is wholly inadequate for what I need right now.

Cheers

Have tried to send you a PM, but I think you can't receive them until you have posted a few more times. Find a few other threads to post on and I'll try again later.

In short, I don't have the detailed programme, sorry. Almost all elements of major track work has the potential to be noisy. :cry: Signal testing at the end of the job is usually quiet.

 

[TrenHotel]

The National Rail site and Real Time Trains are both showing trains from the Kent/Sussex coast running into Charing Cross on Saturday 2 January (but not out again) - presumably a really unhelpful mistake on somebody's part, considering it's meant to be closed?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W04861/2016/01/02
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/WAE/2016/01/02/1419

 

[carriageline]

Correct, only trains running that weekend are test trains to test the new signalling.

 

[Bishopstone]

I am steaming.

Drove to Uckfield this morning to avoid the Purley bustitution, and all was well with the 06.34

Arrived at LBG at 17.00, to find the 17.08 Uckfield was only 4 cars and already too full to board! No doubt many of those on the train wanted Norwood or Croydon, and there was an East Croydon semi-fast train, fully formed, 12 minutes later but of course managing this scenario was too difficult for Southern.

Waiting to see how many carriages have been supplied for the 18.08 now. I'm guessing 2.

Only an hourly service to Uckfield; very little else running from LBG and they still manage to turn the evening into shambles. Someone senior should be fired for this never-ending operational incompetence.

 

[tsr]

Arrived at LBG at 17.00, to find the 17.08 Uckfield was only 4 cars and already too full to board! No doubt many of those on the train wanted Norwood or Croydon, and there was an East Croydon semi-fast train, fully formed, 12 minutes later but of course managing this scenario was too difficult for Southern.

A two-car 171 was required back at Selhurst Depot due to what I can only honestly describe as a bit of an embarrassing defect, which I will not be able to detail here. AFAIK everything on the diesel routes other than that diagram should be formed as booked (whatever the booked stock actually is today).

 

[Bishopstone]

A two-car 171 was required back at Selhurst Depot due to what I can only honestly describe as a bit of an embarrassing defect, which I will not be able to detail here. AFAIK everything on the diesel routes other than that diagram should be formed as booked (whatever the booked stock actually is today).

Thanks.

The 18.08 is 8-car, which would have been appropriate for the 17.08

Intended to fill a wasted hour completing a Delay Repay form, but there were none in the racks, and the guys at the information desk couldn't find one after a rummage through their drawers. Even stationery ordering is challenging for Southern.

 

[Chrisgr31]

A two-car 171 was required back at Selhurst Depot due to what I can only honestly describe as a bit of an embarrassing defect, which I will not be able to detail here. AFAIK everything on the diesel routes other than that diagram should be formed as booked (whatever the booked stock actually is today).

Ahhh interesting as I saw a 6 car unit leave Crowborough although that may have been making up the 16:0x service rather than the 17:0x

 

[tsr]

Ahhh interesting as I saw a 6 car unit leave Crowborough although that may have been making up the 16:0x service rather than the 17:0x

IIRC the 1608 and 1708 LBG-UCK were planned as 6 coaches. Don't know about the rest of the PM peak. I could be wrong as that is actually second-hand info (from a good source).

 

[gtr driver]

I am steaming.

Drove to Uckfield this morning to avoid the Purley bustitution, and all was well with the 06.34

Arrived at LBG at 17.00, to find the 17.08 Uckfield was only 4 cars and already too full to board! No doubt many of those on the train wanted Norwood or Croydon, and there was an East Croydon semi-fast train, fully formed, 12 minutes later but of course managing this scenario was too difficult for Southern.

Waiting to see how many carriages have been supplied for the 18.08 now. I'm guessing 2.

Only an hourly service to Uckfield; very little else running from LBG and they still manage to turn the evening into shambles. Someone senior should be fired for this never-ending operational incompetence.

In the politest possible way, you frequent this forum enough to know that the Uckfield line suffers from significant capacity constraints (ie single track sections and lack of electrification causing reliance on a vulnerable micro fleet). That is why passengers have been advised to go to Three Bridges and catch the bus to East Grinstead, where four 12 car trains have been heading for Victoria every hour, some of them fast to East Croydon. I know it's a pain, but they designed it this way because the East Grinstead route can handle the extra traffic whereas the Uckfield route most definitely cannot.

 

[Hophead]

Thanks.

The 18.08 is 8-car, which would have been appropriate for the 17.08

Intended to fill a wasted hour completing a Delay Repay form, but there were none in the racks, and the guys at the information desk couldn't find one after a rummage through their drawers. Even stationery ordering is challenging for Southern.

Fortunately, the website is, as always, fully stocked with repayment forms. I haven't bothered with the paper form for years, now that it's so easy to apply online.

Admittedly, the online form is pretty hard to find (I went via the site map)

 

[OxtedL]

The 1708 is like that normally with the full complement of cars!

With the peak extra Uckfields not running there are at least an extra 4 car and an extra 2 car knocking about somewhere in the system. However they have not been taking carriages off in the off peak as far as I can tell - perhaps because they don't have enough drivers to do the empty moves to Selhurst, but probably to strengthen one of only 3tph running on the fasts to London Bridge. You can see a last minute empty path in RTT to put carriages back on the 2008 (same units as the 1708) to help evening capacity.

An 8-car and two 6-cars on the three Uckfield diagrams accounts for 4 of the 6 x 4-car and 2 of the 5 x 2-car trains available. The normal morning peak service I think uses 5 of the 4-cars and 4 of the 2-cars (correct me if wrong), but some of those only do a small amount of work and then sit in the depot which must greatly help with maintenance which could well be a factor in trying to use more. The fleet of 5x2-cars you would see used for Marshlink is effectively cut off from Selhurst at the moment (although there look to be paths on the system to move the stock via Horsham and Epsom if it becomes necessary) so they will also be trying to keep as much slack there as possible.

 

[Bishopstone]

In the politest possible way, you frequent this forum enough to know that the Uckfield line suffers from significant capacity constraints (ie single track sections and lack of electrification causing reliance on a vulnerable micro fleet). That is why passengers have been advised to go to Three Bridges and catch the bus to East Grinstead, where four 12 car trains have been heading for Victoria every hour, some of them fast to East Croydon. I know it's a pain, but they designed it this way because the East Grinstead route can handle the extra traffic whereas the Uckfield route most definitely cannot.

I hear what you say: fair points. Perhaps this bus replacement operation is more efficient than others I have used, and I wouldn't be faced with a queue of 300 people at East Grinstead, in the rain and without shelter, waiting for a barely roadworthy Leyland National to arrive with a lost driver being guided by a local

To be fair, I've seen no complaints about the bus shuttle this year. I might give it a try tomorrow. The timings are unattractive, though, eg:

17.08 London Bridge - Uckfield 18.21 (in theory!)
18.25 Nice warm car - Bishopstone 18.45

Versus (per Journey Planner - no itinerary given from London Bridge)

17.23 Victoria - East Grinstead 18.18
18.27 East Grinstead - Three Bridges 18.47 (bus)
18.55 Three Bridges - Lewes 19.24
19.28 Lewes - Bishopstone 19.43

So about 45 minutes longer via the bus replacement, with tight connections off the bus at Three Bridges and then at Lewes onto the Seaford branch train.

I would estimate the probability of this itinerary working at 20%-30%, given the multiple connections and opportunity for just one of the three trains to be cancelled/delayed. Would anyone care to argue I'm being too pessimistic, given Southern's record over the last month and my well-documented connection woes at Lewes? Four minutes, remember.....

 

[southern442]

I would estimate the probability of this itinerary working at 20%-30%, given the multiple connections and opportunity for just one of the three trains to be cancelled/delayed. Would anyone care to argue I'm being too pessimistic, given Southern's record over the last month and my well-documented connection woes at Lewes? Four minutes, remember.....

If you intend on travelling on the 17:08, and it is too full to board, then the bus connection works out better. The other option is to drive the extra half an hour to East Grinstead, which has lots of parking space, and a few other car parks around the town.

 

[gtr driver]

I hear what you say: fair points. Perhaps this bus replacement operation is more efficient than others I have used, and I wouldn't be faced with a queue of 300 people at East Grinstead, in the rain and without shelter, waiting for a barely roadworthy Leyland National to arrive with a lost driver being guided by a local

To be fair, I've seen no complaints about the bus shuttle this year. I might give it a try tomorrow. The timings are unattractive, though, eg:

17.08 London Bridge - Uckfield 18.21 (in theory!)
18.25 Nice warm car - Bishopstone 18.45

Versus (per Journey Planner - no itinerary given from London Bridge)

17.23 Victoria - East Grinstead 18.18
18.27 East Grinstead - Three Bridges 18.47 (bus)
18.55 Three Bridges - Lewes 19.24
19.28 Lewes - Bishopstone 19.43

So about 45 minutes longer via the bus replacement, with tight connections off the bus at Three Bridges and then at Lewes onto the Seaford branch train.

I would estimate the probability of this itinerary working at 20%-30%, given the multiple connections and opportunity for just one of the three trains to be cancelled/delayed. Would anyone care to argue I'm being too pessimistic, given Southern's record over the last month and my well-documented connection woes at Lewes? Four minutes, remember.....

Trains are generally on time at the moment because there are so few of them on the fast lines, removing our usual problem of congestion. And just as before, a marquee has been installed at East Grinstead to cater for all the extra waiting passengers. The four minute connection is I would argue too tight to be relied on under any circumstances, though that's another issue. But ultimately it depends what your priority is. If you want a seat, then joining already overstretched Uckfield trains is unlikely to meet this criteria. Also short of placing guards at every door checking tickets on entry I don't see how on a busy commuter network you can stop people for East Croydon using a train that stops there in favour of longer distance passengers.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'd be surprised if the Uckfield trains are packed with their usual passengers. I haven't been on them this week, but in the week before Christmas in peak hours there were free seats between ECR and LBG and vice versa, and there is certainly less cars parked around Crowborough station.

Walked the dog near the rail line earlier saw the 10:45 Crowborough departure which was a 6 car. Suspect yesterdays issue was a technical failure.

 

[southern442]

I'd be surprised if the Uckfield trains are packed with their usual passengers. I haven't been on them this week, but in the week before Christmas in peak hours there were free seats between ECR and LBG and vice versa, and there is certainly less cars parked around Crowborough station.

Walked the dog near the rail line earlier saw the 10:45 Crowborough departure which was a 6 car. Suspect yesterdays issue was a technical failure.

Yes, the Uckfield line isn't usually that busy, and it would normally probably be able to cope with a 4-car train in the peak (just). However Southern should have added some more precautions on the Oxted line as a whole to cater for the increased passenger numbers.

 

[tsr]

I'd be surprised if the Uckfield trains are packed with their usual passengers. I haven't been on them this week, but in the week before Christmas in peak hours there were free seats between ECR and LBG and vice versa, and there is certainly less cars parked around Crowborough station.

Walked the dog near the rail line earlier saw the 10:45 Crowborough departure which was a 6 car. Suspect yesterdays issue was a technical failure.

The intermediate stations on the East Grinstead line have been just as busy as usual this week (ie. Dormans-Sanderstead) - if not busier. Uckfields seem to have had standard off-peak loadings with some lighter loads in the peak, from what I can tell.

The problem yesterday was not a technical failure but more to do with when a specific maintenance task was (or indeed wasn't) scheduled. No, I can't say more (except that it wasn't the "out of fuel" issue you occasionally get). It looks like a quick solution was available, which as it happens is what was expected.

 

[sarahj]

The crowds seem to be on the Gtw-HRH-VIC trains via Dorking. Being only able to run 8 cars twice an hour is making for some busy trains, plus all the suitcases as well!!!!. I warned my punters of overcrowding on this train as I came up from Littlehampton, but watched as most got off and crossed over the bridge to P4 at Horsham to join an already busy train. Seems they wanted to play at sardines rather than take a fast bus and board a 12 car train running 4 x an hour from East Grinstead. Wonder which way they will come back?

And this week, you can make announcements until your blue in the face that the Rdh-GTW-HRH-LIT-BTN (and a bit for PMH/SOU) that you are going via Horsham and Littlehampton and it will take 1hr50 from Gatwick to Brighton and that its much quicker to get a fast train from Gatwick/Three Bridges, then you walk through the train and its, 'when do we get to brighton?..how long!!!!...
I watched a young couple just miss a train on the main to Gatwick at Brighton,walking round to the Redhill very slow route train. Where you going...three Bridges...Get the next train in 15 mins, dont get the one to Redhill, will take you almost 2 hours, oh.......

And then there is the issue that in SWT land all our trains are marked to Littlehampton only. So you get this..
I'm going to Gatwick. Take this train, its goes all the way....But I was told to change at Littlehampton....Dont worry, you don't need to change...but.
One guy was so adamant that cause the 'man somewhere in the station' told him he had to change at Littlehampton and would just not believe me when I said, 'no this train is going direct to Horsham'. He kept arguing, in the end I said. 'Well then sir, if you want to change at Littlehampton, you can change at Littlehampton'.:roll:
I've seen a family, standing right next to me as I told the train and other punters that the train will continue from Littlehamtpton to Horsham and Gatwick, then get off the train at Littlehampton, then moan at me as they reboard the same train.
Another punter with a bike going to Pullbrough. I mentioned that when we get to Littlehampton he would be best moving his bike to another coach due to a short platform. His reply ' I'm changing at Barnham for Pullbrough'. and nothing I could say would change his mind. Watched him get off at Barnham and mentioned to the P/Staff that I told him to stay on, but as far as he was concerned he would change at Barnham for Pullbrough', just in case he kicked off.

One little station has gained. Amberly. Normally one train an hour, its getting two an hour. Mind, not seen anyone getting on or off, but still, a 100% increase...
A fun week.:-x

 

[ScotGG]

Not sure if this is the right thread but why aren't Southeastern running 12 car metro car trains from Victoria whilst Charing Cross and Cannon Street are closed?

Trains from central London on Dartford lines are much reduced in the peak (2 an hour on metro lines when normally 6+), yet many people are working today and many shoppers. After all the money spent on building 12 car platforms the past few years I understand they lack stock for more than a handful of 12-car services on a normal rush hour, but today when so few trains are running why aren't they on? Specifically there are services not calling at Woolwich Dockyard, but at Plumstead, so it looks like the timetable was designed for it but not being provided.

 

[southern442]

Not sure if this is the right thread but why aren't Southeastern running 12 car metro car trains from Victoria whilst Charing Cross and Cannon Street are closed?

Trains from central London on Dartford lines are much reduced in the peak (2 an hour on metro lines when normally 6+), yet many people are working today and many shoppers. After all the money spent on building 12 car platforms the past few years I understand they lack stock for more than a handful of 12-car services on a normal rush hour, but today when so few trains are running why aren't they on? Specifically there are services not calling at Woolwich Dockyard, but at Plumstead, so it looks like the timetable was designed for it but not being provided.

I'm not sure that many of the platforms on that side of Southeastern are actually 12-car. You don't even see many 12-car mainline trains that way from what I have seen.

 

[swt_passenger]

...And then there is the issue that in SWT land all our trains are marked to Littlehampton only. So you get this..
[...]
I've seen a family, standing right next to me as I told the train and other punters that the train will continue from Littlehamtpton to Horsham and Gatwick, then get off the train at Littlehampton, then moan at me as they reboard the same train.

There's almost certainly something up with the background data, because RTT and NRES LDB are consistently showing only down direction services running through from Redhill to Southampton via Littlehampton, but separate services in the other direction, and it is more than just an SWT area problem, as currently Chichester and Barnham (for example) also show the same issue...

Needless to say RTT for Littlehampton itself shows exactly the same thing with through down services only.

I'd suggest it is the same basic flaw concerning joining portions that leads to Horsham being displayed as the destination when leaving Southampton whenever there are changes to the base timetable.