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London Bridge reconstruction works

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Bald Rick

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Does that mean southern will loose that when they start stopping at Charing cross? If so will that affect the current southern timetable?

No. Southern lose it this Christmas, at the same time they gain the down Sussex Slow through the dive under.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They might need the 'open tracks' for shunting works trains about, or there might be cranes rotating that obstruct adjacent tracks. It is never as simple as it looks.

And/ Or for cabling works in the cable route alongside line 11, or for craning in new gantries, or because the interlocking is down for alterations.
 
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neilm

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No. Southern lose it this Christmas, at the same time they gain the down Sussex Slow through the dive under.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And/ Or for cabling works in the cable route alongside line 11, or for craning in new gantries, or because the interlocking is down for alterations.
Since the dive under opens does that improve the timetable?
 

Bald Rick

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Since the dive under opens does that improve the timetable?

You have me there. It certainly removes many conflicts at Bricklayers Arms junction and South Bermondsey Junction. So it is easier to operate. However the London Bridge timetable is actually pretty robust to minor delays (really, it is), so overall reliability won't improve much. It is certainly not the case that London Bridge is the root cause of GTRs current performance malaise, and that it will be all solved by this work. Quite how they have to cheek to blame London Bridge in every communication on poor performance I don't know.

Whether any of the South Bermondsey terminators are reinstated, I don't know.
 

sarahj

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You have me there. It certainly removes many conflicts at Bricklayers Arms junction and South Bermondsey Junction. So it is easier to operate. However the London Bridge timetable is actually pretty robust to minor delays (really, it is), so overall reliability won't improve much. It is certainly not the case that London Bridge is the root cause of GTRs current performance malaise, and that it will be all solved by this work. Quite how they have to cheek to blame London Bridge in every communication on poor performance I don't know.

Whether any of the South Bermondsey terminators are reinstated, I don't know.

Yeah, I thought they had given upon blaming LB, since I had a 'cough' 'cough' cold, it's all they been talking about. (Note, I'm not ill and have not been off sick, I'm just ****ed off (sorry)).
 

ijmad

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You have me there. It certainly removes many conflicts at Bricklayers Arms junction and South Bermondsey Junction. So it is easier to operate. However the London Bridge timetable is actually pretty robust to minor delays (really, it is), so overall reliability won't improve much. It is certainly not the case that London Bridge is the root cause of GTRs current performance malaise, and that it will be all solved by this work. Quite how they have to cheek to blame London Bridge in every communication on poor performance I don't know.

Whether any of the South Bermondsey terminators are reinstated, I don't know.

Do you think there's a chance they'll ultimately try and squeeze in more than 20tph if it does prove reliable once the works are all done in 2018?
 

Sunset route

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Post December 2018 tt change London Bridge LL will become a ghost town from what it was when it open 2015 Tonbridge/Reigate gone to Victoria Horsham/Brighton/Tattenham all to Thameslink core and Littlehampton/Caterham/East Grinsteads also Thameslink core in the peaks, so that's 16 trains less on the approach track off peak and a few above that in the peaks. That should make for a more robust timetable, you can't delay it if you don't run it lmao :lol:
 

infobleep

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Yeah, I thought they had given upon blaming LB, since I had a 'cough' 'cough' cold, it's all they been talking about. (Note, I'm not ill and have not been off sick, I'm just ****ed off (sorry)).
I was about to post something similar and I don't work for Southern!

Once your all out of the way I guess London Bridge can be blamed again.

I'm sure I read something recently blaming conductors and London Bridge but my memory may be playing tricka

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hwl

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Jan 2017 Timetable and additional services

The Dec 2015 Train service requirement (but the tables at the back are dated 25/5/16 so should align with the remedial plan).
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/525781/tsgn-service-level-commitments.pdf
Page 328 (of 397)
Route R
LONDON VICTORIA – LONDON BRIDGE via Crystal Palace

...

2.3.
Between 0630 and 0930 six additional services shall be provided at half hourly intervals from Streatham Hill to London Bridge calling at the stations
specified in paragraph 1.1. One interval of up to 40 minutes shall be permitted. Two of these services may start from Crystal Palace.
Three of these services need not operate until January 2017 timetable change.
Between 0930 and 0945, one additional service shall be provided from Crystal Palace to London Bridge, calling at the stations specified in Paragraph
1.1.
and page 371 BML inner Northbound table 2 footnotes [table is dated 25 May 2016]
Note 3: From January 2017, one additional service shall be provided from East Croydon to London Bridge, arriving between 08:00 and 08:29.
Note 4: From January 2017, three additional services shall be provided from Crystal Palace to London Bridge at maximum intervals of 40 minutes, calling at all stations via Forest Hill, arriving between 07:30 and 08:59.
Two of these services shall extend to Streatham Hill, calling at Gipsy Hill and West Norwood

The 4 additional services mentioned here are effectively the resumption of 4 services (2 in the peak hour 0800-59) that were dropped to get the number of services into LBG in the AM peak from the former 30tph down to the current 22tph. (The other metro area services cut included 2 tph SLL replaced by LO overground ELL phase 2, 2tph via South Bermondsey turned back at South Bermondsey. The rest that were cut were on the fast lines from East Croydon).

The evening slow line services via NXG that were cut to improve reliability after the Jan issues are also back in.

No specific mentioned of the South Bermondsey turn back services being resumed but it would be logical before extras are added in overall.

Given stock utilisation is high where does the stock come from? (unless lots of 700s running on SN services before the end of the year or the 377/2 are cascaded from TL services?)

1 extra Redhill - LBG in the am peak from Jan 17 too
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Post December 2018 tt change London Bridge LL will become a ghost town from what it was when it open 2015 Tonbridge/Reigate gone to Victoria Horsham/Brighton/Tattenham all to Thameslink core and Littlehampton/Caterham/East Grinsteads also Thameslink core in the peaks, so that's 16 trains less on the approach track off peak and a few above that in the peaks. That should make for a more robust timetable, you can't delay it if you don't run it lmao :lol:

Surely the reduction in existing services to the terminating platforms starts in Jan '18 TT change (min 6tph transfer to TL?) with more in the May and December '18 TT changes as TL core services ramp up from 16tph in Jan to 20tph in May then 24tph in December.
 
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Sunset route

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Surely the reduction in existing services to the terminating platforms starts in Jan '18 TT change (min 6tph transfer to TL?) with more in the May and December '18 TT changes as TL core services ramp up from 16tph in Jan to 20tph in May then 24tph in December.

My understanding was that only the original Bedfords 4X a hour were going back via London Bridge and the core from the May 2018 tt change to allow for systems shakedown and for train crews to learn the route before the Big Bang and 18/24 Thameslink core service starts in anger with the December 2018 tt change.
 

hwl

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My understanding was that only the original Bedfords 4X a hour were going back via London Bridge and the core from the May 2018 tt change to allow for systems shakedown and for train crews to learn the route before the Big Bang and 18/24 Thameslink core service starts in anger with the December 2018 tt change.

But 16tph through the core in Jan 2018 would need 4tph Bedford, 4 Wimbledon loop and the Catford Loop services so still another 4+tph to find (via London Bridge). Don't the EC TL services start in May '18?.
I thought the plan was to step up from 16 to 20 (non ATO limit) and then 24 in the 3 TT changes in 2018?
 

tsr

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You have me there. It certainly removes many conflicts at Bricklayers Arms junction and South Bermondsey Junction. So it is easier to operate. However the London Bridge timetable is actually pretty robust to minor delays (really, it is), so overall reliability won't improve much. It is certainly not the case that London Bridge is the root cause of GTRs current performance malaise, and that it will be all solved by this work. Quite how they have to cheek to blame London Bridge in every communication on poor performance I don't know.

Whether any of the South Bermondsey terminators are reinstated, I don't know.

I'm afraid, if I'm perfectly honest, that my experiences over the last couple of months have shown a deterioration in resilience for various reasons, some of which I am sure, others less so. I would not agree that I have found the timetable to be resilient to minor delays. I think commuters and especially less regular passengers are starting to become a little more confident in using London Bridge vice current Thameslink Core stations or Victoria, and as a result I have found more delays in and out of the platforms due to poor walking speeds and overcrowding, as well as the continuing major inability by the planners to see that minimum turnarounds in the heart of the morning peak are simply not as efficient as they are on paper. There are plenty of services, especially those via Oxted, Haywards Heath and Redhill, which seem to be accumulating sizeable delays on Southbound journeys in the morning due to turnaround times remaining unsustainable. It is not so much about crew resources or anything like that; it is simply a case of making sure you can change ends and get all the passengers on and off. Woe betide anybody needing to use a wheelchair ramp, or anybody who wants a clean train on departure, or the PIS set up if calling patterns have been altered. The most you can do is safe dispatch, and that is a major challenge. I've had to stop dispatch a number of times, fortunately not with trains in motion but during the process, due to a dangerous environment caused by overcrowding or people obstructing doors; my colleagues likewise, and it will carry on. There are other, simple things too: the station announcements are too loud, so you can't communicate verbally about the service, which can delay the start of dispatch. It's been reported per the usual processes - but because the only consequence so far, at least in recent months, seems to have been lost time affecting different random services each day, I've not seen any effort to deal with these issues.

The delays are causing an impact on the real world - the presence of the Southbound morning peak flow from London Bridge may be much smaller than the more natural Northbound flow, but it is very important and drives a lot of crucial sectors, including a very specific demographic of the construction industry in the Croydon area. As a result, a lot of workers building and maintaining infrastructure in South London are being significantly delayed on a regular basis due to the inability to allow enough time for passengers to board and alight. It really is as simple as that, and it will start to have a noticeable impact on the economy if it is not sorted. Other peak flows from London Bridge on the Southern network include a number of commuters heading down from Essex towards South London who are becoming increasingly frustrated with the service, particularly as any diversion for them will cause quite a lot of inconvenience. In addition I am finding more and more of the "second" Northbound peak journeys on routes such as the Uckfield line will now be turning round late at the country end, and so delays on turnaround at London Bridge will then cause a second late turnaround... the list goes on! This has all swelled up again in recent weeks and it's somehow ended up being more of a bottleneck.
 
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carriageline

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I'm not sure what your lot are like mate, but have you tried raising this lot internally?


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Bald Rick

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I'm afraid, if I'm perfectly honest, that my experiences over the last couple of months have shown a deterioration in resilience for various reasons, some of which I am sure, others less so. I would not agree that I have found the timetable to be resilient to minor delays. I think commuters and especially less regular passengers are starting to become a little more confident in using London Bridge vice current Thameslink Core stations or Victoria, and as a result I have found more delays in and out of the platforms due to poor walking speeds and overcrowding, as well as the continuing major inability by the planners to see that minimum turnarounds in the heart of the morning peak are simply not as efficient as they are on paper. There are plenty of services, especially those via Oxted, Haywards Heath and Redhill, which seem to be accumulating sizeable delays on Southbound journeys in the morning due to turnaround times remaining unsustainable. It is not so much about crew resources or anything like that; it is simply a case of making sure you can change ends and get all the passengers on and off. Woe betide anybody needing to use a wheelchair ramp, or anybody who wants a clean train on departure, or the PIS set up if calling patterns have been altered. The most you can do is safe dispatch, and that is a major challenge. I've had to stop dispatch a number of times, fortunately not with trains in motion but during the process, due to a dangerous environment caused by overcrowding or people obstructing doors; my colleagues likewise, and it will carry on. There are other, simple things too: the station announcements are too loud, so you can't communicate verbally about the service, which can delay the start of dispatch. It's been reported per the usual processes - but because the only consequence so far, at least in recent months, seems to have been lost time affecting different random services each day, I've not seen any effort to deal with these issues.

The delays are causing an impact on the real world - the presence of the Southbound morning peak flow from London Bridge may be much smaller than the more natural Northbound flow, but it is very important and drives a lot of crucial sectors, including a very specific demographic of the construction industry in the Croydon area. As a result, a lot of workers building and maintaining infrastructure in South London are being significantly delayed on a regular basis due to the inability to allow enough time for passengers to board and alight. It really is as simple as that, and it will start to have a noticeable impact on the economy if it is not sorted. Other peak flows from London Bridge on the Southern network include a number of commuters heading down from Essex towards South London who are becoming increasingly frustrated with the service, particularly as any diversion for them will cause quite a lot of inconvenience. In addition I am finding more and more of the "second" Northbound peak journeys on routes such as the Uckfield line will now be turning round late at the country end, and so delays on turnaround at London Bridge will then cause a second late turnaround... the list goes on! This has all swelled up again in recent weeks and it's somehow ended up being more of a bottleneck.

All fair comment.

What I was referring to (but didn't make clear!) is that London Bridge (low level) can cope pretty well with minor later running in the system. Unlike in the early days when 1 late peak train scuppered everything that followed, now trains can be a couple of minutes late without having a major impact on other services, and without causing further delay to themselves.

It is however quite correct that with tight turnarounds etc the boarding alighting times at LBG are critical. This should be eased a little in 90 days time when the new concourse opens.
 

Class377/5

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My understanding was that only the original Bedfords 4X a hour were going back via London Bridge and the core from the May 2018 tt change to allow for systems shakedown and for train crews to learn the route before the Big Bang and 18/24 Thameslink core service starts in anger with the December 2018 tt change.

My understanding was Bedford - Brighton back Jan 2018. Thameslink's Dec TT change will happen in Jan with increase on MML to 16tph peak before hitting 20tph in May and 24tph in Dec. ATO turn on is by May TT too IIRC.

However final Dec 2018 TL network map to be announced this summer.
 

ijmad

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I know many people will have seen timetables already but it was interesting to me to see that the resumed Charing Cross services from August 29th onwards are now up on RealTimeTrains (and other places I'm sure).

First day of operation, Monday 29th August which is a bank holiday:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/LBG/2016/08/29/0800

First real AM peak, Tuesday 30th August:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/LBG/2016/08/30/0800

So it appears P9 is up and P7 is down and P8 is being used reversibly during the day, down most of the time except between 6am and 10am on weekdays, mostly as I'd been led to believe from reading other sources.

The first 'down' train to use P8 after the morning peak is the 10:10 to Hayes. There are a fairly large number of non-stopping passes of P7 by in service trains during the AM peak, presumably to cope with the lack of platform capacity when P8 is being used as an up.
 
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swt_passenger

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Timetables post 29th August are also shown in the eNRTT, as pointed out a few days ago in the timetables sub-forum.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110286&page=107

Which brings me to a request. Can we ease off on the nitty gritty future timetable discussion of the last few days here in this thread to concentrate on the infrastructure changes and building works as before? The problem is we end up with two separate discussions of the same subject matter.
 

ijmad

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Which brings me to a request. Can we ease off on the nitty gritty future timetable discussion of the last few days here in this thread to concentrate on the infrastructure changes and building works as before? The problem is we end up with two separate discussions of the same subject matter.

Of course yep. I was really just interested in the new platform use rather than the nitty gritty ;)
 

ijmad

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So the escalators to the existing Western arcade closed on the 16th, haven't seen how bad things are with other walking routes to the tube during rush hour yet.

Since this wasn't part of the construction phases I'd seen in the various documents floating about is it a reasonable assumption this work ahead of August is to allow the western arcade to reopen with the new concourse?

It seemed that originally it was going to be closed for some time.
 

hwl

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So the escalators to the existing Western arcade closed on the 16th, haven't seen how bad things are with other walking routes to the tube during rush hour yet.

Since this wasn't part of the construction phases I'd seen in the various documents floating about is it a reasonable assumption this work ahead of August is to allow the western arcade to reopen with the new concourse?

It seemed that originally it was going to be closed for some time.

No real problems in the mornings so far, the number of "confused" people is going down every day.

The phasing drawings only show high level detail and are fairly old.

There were several options, the presumption was to do the closure like they have unless there was a way to do it while keeping it partially open which they weren't optimistic about.
 

FOH

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I'm telling all my friends who use the Jubilee line to ignore the signage and follow the signs for the Northern line. Far more pleasant route without having to trudge a huge dogleg in the weather.
 

Blindtraveler

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Were these escalater just moved for refurb and upgrade or is this the end of them in that area with new ones in another location?

Noted at Westminster last week a pre recorded announcement advertising lift refurbishment work on the Northern Line at Bridge starting soon. What if any further disruption will this cause at LBG in terms of passenger flow?
 

swt_passenger

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Were these escalater just moved for refurb and upgrade or is this the end of them in that area with new ones in another location?

Gone for good. The main route to the underground from the NR platforms is achieved by extending the ground level passageway eastwards into the middle of the new main north/south concourse (yet to open), and all those double escalators down from either end of the through platforms, and from the terminating platforms, take you down to the same level as the redundant escalators.
 

hwl

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Gone for good. The main route to the underground from the NR platforms is achieved by extending the ground level passageway eastwards into the middle of the new main north/south concourse (yet to open), and all those double escalators down from either end of the through platforms, and from the terminating platforms, take you down to the same level as the redundant escalators.

There will also be a bank of 2x escalators, 2x stairs and 1x lift approximately 40m SSE of the existing ones that are being removed that will go from the existing high level concourse to the new low level one but facing in the opposite direction. (i.e. they are off the axis of the concourse tube link and adjacent to P10 behind the hoardings/ tarpaulin)

From what I understand there will be a new concourse to tube link on day 1 of the new concourse but it won't be the finished article and will be narrower and will move around as work continues (Expect it to resemble a maze when it goes through what will be the back of the new shops on the north side of the arcade! The issue is that the old escalators have to be removed and new concrete arches built and the existing area completely refurbed and the circulation space widened (triple the existing usable width.)

This area is the oldest bit of the station which opened in 1836 so is much harder to work on than the majority mid Victorian or Edwardian vintage areas. (Even the early victorian stuff was far easier than the William IV vintage).
 

Blindtraveler

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Longterm though sounds good as tube to NR will be much simpler. Strip out and refurb etc of old arcade etc will understandably take a while, thanks foalks


Slightly off topic but have NR speciffied semi decent escalaters here or is it more of the cheep junk already installed at other recent refits e.g Birmingham, reading etc?
 

FOH

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Let's hope they aren't cheap junk as, when you look at the publicity mockups, it seems a helluva climb to the platforms! That said, I'm not sure how much to scale they really are as when you look at the folks on them, they look like they could fit 4 people standing side by side.
 

swt_passenger

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There will also be a bank of 2x escalators, 2x stairs and 1x lift approximately 40m SSE of the existing ones that are being removed that will go from the existing high level concourse to the new low level one but facing in the opposite direction. (i.e. they are off the axis of the concourse tube link and adjacent to P10 behind the hoardings/ tarpaulin)
.

I didn't mention them, because I think that for most arrivals or departures by train they'd be an unnecessary dogleg.

If anyone can't visualise them from the above description I posted a drawing explaining the area between P9 and P10 way back in post #389. :D
 

ijmad

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I didn't mention them, because I think that for most arrivals or departures by train they'd be an unnecessary dogleg.

If anyone can't visualise them from the above description I posted a drawing explaining the area between P9 and P10 way back in post #389. :D

I guess they're there mostly for people from through platforms who want to get a bus/taxi or actually go the Shard.

Although some people from terminating trains will use the upper gateline without knowing the layout of the station and will have to, as you say, dogleg back on themselves to get to the tube.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Let's hope they aren't cheap junk as, when you look at the publicity mockups, it seems a helluva climb to the platforms! That said, I'm not sure how much to scale they really are as when you look at the folks on them, they look like they could fit 4 people standing side by side.

Supplied by KONE apparently. Think they're the same supplier TfL and Crossrail use.
http://www.barbourproductsearch.inf...flow-at-london-bridge-station-news041005.html
 
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physics34

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Let's hope they aren't cheap junk as, when you look at the publicity mockups, it seems a helluva climb to the platforms! That said, I'm not sure how much to scale they really are as when you look at the folks on them, they look like they could fit 4 people standing side by side.

yep it is quite a bit of a climb!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
ANy info on retailers that will be moving in ready for august 28th?
 
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