London Bridge reconstruction works

[coppercapped]

Contrast this deliberate act to make interchange harder with the good hearted railway designers in the mid 20th century.
SNIP

Oh and also the wonderfully simple interchange at Paddington 'Hammersmith & City' island platform to the main Line platforms via a footbridge now another external hike.. I often wonder if railway designers, who used to care about people as evidenced by their thoughtful designs now just regard punters as a nuisance.

The Paddington connection was wonderfully simple - and totally inadequate.

Arriving and departing passengers used the same set of stairs - it was a rugby scrum and very unpleasant. The new entrance allows people working in the new office buildings nearby easy access to the Underground which the old arrangement didn't and also permits separate arrival and departure routes to and from the platforms.

But rants are fun, aren't they?

 

[XDM]

Paddington H & C island platform to Paddington suburban platforms walk took one minute except for two hours a day when it took two minutes. Now the new multi million pound route takes 5 minutes.

It could have been solved by putting in an extra footbridge at the country end for a hundredth the cost or making the lift, which has been installed, a proper people carrier able to take 50 people at a time.

London Bridge's new interchange route march is designed to take passengers through a temple of retail. Minimising walking time should have been a priority. Instead maximum exposure to retail is the clear objective &, I am told, a Network Rail selling point to prospective retailers.

Do you realise their slick salesmen talk of footfall measured in consumer minutes exposed to the retail experience?

 

[ijmad]

London Bridge's new interchange route march is designed to take passengers through a temple of retail. Minimising walking time should have been a priority.

I'm not sure how they could have made the walk any shorter. It's a direct, straight path from the new concourse to the tube station entrance.

The tube station ticket hall has always been slightly west of the main station, and the platforms underground are even further to the west (so no amount of new escalators would solve this problem). Blame the Victorians for that one.

Maybe it's deceptive because it's long and boring at the moment, but from any given point on the terminal platforms the distance is the same, just with steps/escalators at different points. From the through platforms, yes it's longer if you're in the front half of the train, as you have to zig-zag down an east-facing escalator first, but in the rear half it would be the same as before. Plus, stopping passengers from crushloading the front of trains is one of the design goals of the new station.

 

[samuelmorris]

The Paddington H&C interchange seems fine to me - a footbridge leading directly onto some of the platforms rather than using the concourse is pretty convenient and it doesn't take very long. King's Cross and London Bridge are a bit of a trek I grant you but very little worse than many other major stations in London. Thameslink northbound to the Victoria line is about a worst case scenario at KX and that takes me 8 minutes. It can sometimes take me that long to escape Victoria due to the crowds. Liverpool Street can be similar if arriving from the East on the SSL platform.

 

[FOH]

The designers could've put the stairs and escalators one behind the other but instead put them together leaving ridiculously narrow platforms for significant lengths. Plus on 11& 12 you have a huge staff only lift.

I do hope Grimshaw never win another station rebuild again. I suppose though the first part of their name is pretty appropriate.

 

[Bald Rick]

The designers could've put the stairs and escalators one behind the other but instead put them together leaving ridiculously narrow platforms for significant lengths. Plus on 11& 12 you have a huge staff only lift.

Could they? Have you spoken to the designers about it?

 

[Bald Rick]

.

London Bridge's new interchange route march is designed to take passengers through a temple of retail. Minimising walking time should have been a priority. Instead maximum exposure to retail is the clear objective &, I am told, a Network Rail selling point to prospective retailers.
?

Read my earlier post #1410.

 

[ijmad]

The designers could've put the stairs and escalators one behind the other but instead put them together leaving ridiculously narrow platforms for significant lengths. Plus on 11& 12 you have a huge staff only lift.

I do hope Grimshaw never win another station rebuild again. I suppose though the first part of their name is pretty appropriate.

I agree with you there, even if they kept the escalators in the current positions, they could cover at least 3/4 of the enourmous stairwell chasms without anyone bashing their head - if they want light in they could do it with glass bricks - seen this at several similar designs including Vienna.

There was a previous design where the escalators descending to a mezzanine floor rather than ground level which made the chasms much smaller, but if I recall correctly it was chucked for being too expensive. It was the design with offices taking up the air rights.

 

[coppercapped]

Paddington H & C island platform to Paddington suburban platforms walk took one minute except for two hours a day when it took two minutes. Now the new multi million pound route takes 5 minutes.

It could have been solved by putting in an extra footbridge at the country end for a hundredth the cost or making the lift, which has been installed, a proper people carrier able to take 50 people at a time.

SNIPPED

There used to be another set of stairs on 15/16 which led to the Bishop's Bridge Road entrance for the four platforms of the GW suburban station which used to include 13 and 14. This bridge never reached any of the other platforms, it only ever connected platforms 13 to 16.

Gate-free interchange between the Underground and the surface railway is becoming a thing of the past as revenue control becomes tighter. If a new bridge were to be built across the country ends of Paddington's platforms 1 to 14 to reach 15 and 16 it would need to be wide enough to install a suitable gate-line AND have lifts to ALL the platforms to allow disabled people to use it.

Such a bridge does not come cheap - whatever fantasies you may hold.

 

[XDM]

There used to be another set of stairs on 15/16 which led to the Bishop's Bridge Road entrance for the four platforms of the GW suburban station which used to include 13 and 14. This bridge never reached any of the other platforms, it only ever connected platforms 13 to 16.

Gate-free interchange between the Underground and the surface railway is becoming a thing of the past as revenue control becomes tighter. If a new bridge were to be built across the country ends of Paddington's platforms 1 to 14 to reach 15 and 16 it would need to be wide enough to install a suitable gate-line AND have lifts to ALL the platforms to allow disabled people to use it.

Such a bridge does not come cheap - whatever fantasies you may hold.

You have made my point. These recent long hike interchanges are deliberate. Simply to control passengers. As you admit, the long, unneeded Hammersmith & City Paddington hike for old & the ill,as well as the fit, is to put a control barrier between underground & national rail. I suppose you would advocate undoing the simple central line to national rail cross platform interchanges at Stratford & at Greenford to allow control barriers to be installed. And how about destroying the simple cross platform interchange between National rail & the wonderful Victoria line deep down at Highbury & Islington. Surely that needs controlling? The good natured planners in the past wanted to make life easier for passengers. As you say the new planners of London Bridge, Paddington & the Kings Cross maze have other objectives, & making life easier for travellers is not one of them. Keep walking.

 

[FOH]

Could they? Have you spoken to the designers about it?

In my opinion yes but no I've not double checked with them.

 

[ijmad]

The blockade begins!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Could they? Have you spoken to the designers about it?

Its slightly too late talking to the designers now! However talk to the passengers and they dont understand the staff lift in platform 11/12 being the most prominent one, the narrowness of Platform 10, and the fact platforms 10-15 only have one escalator. May be good reasons for it all but no one has told the passengers.

 

[ijmad]

I haven't been up that way today, but it seems based on RTT that services at London Bridge today are operating entirely from Platform 14 & 15. Is other work happening on 10-13?

 

[david737]

I haven't been up that way today, but it seems based on RTT that services at London Bridge today are operating entirely from Platform 14 & 15. Is other work happening on 10-13?

Yes plats 10-13 are part of the same possession for the blockade, they will re-open on Mon morning.

 

[ijmad]

Yes plats 10-13 are part of the same possession for the blockade, they will re-open on Mon morning.

Interesting, I thought things were pretty much finished on that side of the station, what are they up to? Bermondsey dive-under related works on the approaches?

 

[FOH]

Aren't they taking one of the lower station lines and donating it to the Charing Cross route?

 

[hwl]

Interesting, I thought things were pretty much finished on that side of the station, what are they up to? Bermondsey dive-under related works on the approaches?

Because of the connection between the 2 northern most terminating approach tracks and the Charing Cross line tracks in the final track state means the work on the Charing Cross tracks interlocking means that those 2 terminating approach tracks can't be used for the duration of the work on the Charing Cross tracks interlocking.

 

[hwl]

Aren't they taking one of the lower station lines and donating it to the Charing Cross route?

That line (track 8) has been out of use since the down sussex slow thorough the dive under opened. Since it was rebuilt it was used as temporary down loop for ECS leaving the terminating platforms it will be the future up Charing Cross. The points from the loop provide the long term link between the terminating and CHX tracks.

 

[ijmad]

Because of the connection between the 2 northern most terminating approach tracks and the Charing Cross line tracks in the final track state means the work on the Charing Cross tracks interlocking means that those 2 terminating approach tracks can't be used for the duration of the work on the Charing Cross tracks interlocking.

Thanks for the explanation, very interesting.

 

[FOH]

It looks like they've reopened today.

 

[ijmad]

Network Rail & TLProgramme tweeted out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-IyUMDtE8U

"Until December 2017, platforms may feel more crowded than usual and passengers are requested to remain on the concourse until their train is announced. It may be easier to use an alternative station during the evening peak."

Why are they saying this, I'm not sure what is changing that will make the station more crowded compared to before the August blockade?

 

[swt_passenger]

Network Rail & TLProgramme tweeted out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-IyUMDtE8U

"Until December 2017, platforms may feel more crowded than usual and passengers are requested to remain on the concourse until their train is announced. It may be easier to use an alternative station during the evening peak."

Why are they saying this, I'm not sure what is changing that will make the station more crowded compared to before the August blockade?

Yes, a bit of a puzzle. Perhaps they are thinking that the additional calls in contra peak services (the Charing Cross trains that were non-stopping) will put more people on the platforms waiting for them. But those people will presumably still be there in January; and the platforms are dedicated to up or down trains anyway...

Unless what they are thinking is that the opening of the Thameslink and Cannon St platforms will cause a reduction after January, because there will be more through journeys available again...

 

[ijmad]

Yes, a bit of a puzzle. Perhaps they are thinking that the additional calls in contra peak services (the Charing Cross trains that were non-stopping) will put more people on the platforms waiting for them. But those people will presumably still be there in January; and the platforms are dedicated to up or down trains anyway...

Unless what they are thinking is that the opening of the Thameslink and Cannon St platforms will cause a reduction after January, because there will be more through journeys available again...

Yeah, maybe. I guess passengers at stations like Lewisham passengers wanting to get to London Bridge will likely all cram themselves on to Charing Cross trains rather than Cannon Street trains for now, meaning more feet on Platform 8/9 until 2/3 reopen. Still, that's already happening now, and the passenger flow in the reverse peak direction on CHX trains surely isn't that large. Oh well, a mystery.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think it has been mentioned recently (and this is perhaps the wrong thread) but when the full Charing Cross service restarts next week, is that the end of ticket availability on LU between certain stations?

 

[ijmad]

I don't think it has been mentioned recently (and this is perhaps the wrong thread) but when the full Charing Cross service restarts next week, is that the end of ticket availability on LU between certain stations?

Looks to be significantly reduced.

Current map:
https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/901058412750004225

Revised map:
https://www.southeasternrailway.co....s?hootPostID=7276c916c5542ae543fe3c9e9926b441

No more acceptance on the tube from Victoria to Charing Cross, and no Jubilee/DLR/Overground east of London Bridge.

 

[MikeWh]

Network Rail & TLProgramme tweeted out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-IyUMDtE8U

"Until December 2017, platforms may feel more crowded than usual and passengers are requested to remain on the concourse until their train is announced. It may be easier to use an alternative station during the evening peak."

Why are they saying this, I'm not sure what is changing that will make the station more crowded compared to before the August blockade?

Well assuming that they are referring to trains from Charing Cross then I can see one major change. Before this week you had two islands for Kent bound trains (apart from in the morning peak). From next week all Kent bound trains will leave from the same (P6/7) island. This will be alleviated next year when Kent bound trains from Cannon Street resume calling at London Bridge, thus spreading the load to a further island (2/3) and the edge platform (1).

 

[MikeWh]

Looks to be significantly reduced.

Current map:
https://twitter.com/Se_Railway/status/901058412750004225

Revised map:
https://www.southeasternrailway.co....s?hootPostID=7276c916c5542ae543fe3c9e9926b441

No more acceptance on the tube from Victoria to Charing Cross, and no Jubilee/DLR/Overground east of London Bridge.

The first link is the arrangements in place this week with no services to Charing Cross. The second link is the standard acceptance which has applied since Jan 2015.

 

[ijmad]

The first link is the arrangements in place this week with no services to Charing Cross. The second link is the standard acceptance which has applied since Jan 2015.

Ah. My mistake then. I think I read something on twitter about the acceptance being reduced, but I've found the wrong diagrams obviously!

 

[swt_passenger]

Well assuming that they are referring to trains from Charing Cross then I can see one major change. Before this week you had two islands for Kent bound trains (apart from in the morning peak). From next week all Kent bound trains will leave from the same (P6/7) island. This will be alleviated next year when Kent bound trains from Cannon Street resume calling at London Bridge, thus spreading the load to a further island (2/3) and the edge platform (1).

Good analysis, thanks Mike. What you are saying is that previously users of P7 have been lulled into a false sense of spaciousness because they've been allowed to wait while spread out around most of the area of P6 as well.

One of the downsides of island platforms paired by direction I guess. Easily solvable with another flyover and another pair of tracks to Charing Cross.