London Bridge reconstruction works

[acepepper]

I don't think passengers really realize how much pain they will experience over the next few years and for SE passenger I don't think the gain will be as significant as being made out. The age old problem of the bottleneck at Borough Market will still exist after completion of all this work as far as I can see and although it will be eased somewhat with Thameslink being shifted away from there, I can remember the days before Thameslink existed and Borough Market was a problem then and will remain so after they've gone.

When work started, I naively thought that relieving the bottleneck was one of the main aims of the project but it will still be one up and one down road for Southeastern at Borough Market.

Or have I got this completely wrong?

 

[steamybrian]

You have got it completely wrong....

The viaduct under construction between London Bridge, Borough Market Jn and Metropolitan Jn will carry another pair of lines. When completed it will provide four tracks all the way between Charing Cross to London Bridge and beyond.
At present there is only one up and one down line through Borough Market Jn .

 

[BigVince76]

I live near New Cross and Deptford and I am not looking forward to the chaos of the next few years. I also assumed that relieving the Borough market bottleneck was part of the plans. What will be the long term effect of the works, both for my own stations, and the greater SE network?

 

[neilm]

However the OP is right, there will still only be one and one down for southeastern. Thameslink will have the other pair.

 

[steamybrian]

However the OP is right, there will still only be one and one down for southeastern. Thameslink will have the other pair.

So the South Eastern will not use the new line...?????

 

[neilm]

I need the experts to confirm but I believe no they will be dedicated to thameslink. Otherwise it would defeat the object of the whole programme and the bermondsey dive under.

 

[Metobusfan]

So the South Eastern will not use the new line...?????

What I was role they won't... But let's wait n see

 

[JamesRowden]

There's this diagram online from http://railwaydave.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/what-is-thameslink-programme.html

 

[acepepper]

You have got it completely wrong....

The viaduct under construction between London Bridge, Borough Market Jn and Metropolitan Jn will carry another pair of lines. When completed it will provide four tracks all the way between Charing Cross to London Bridge and beyond.
At present there is only one up and one down line through Borough Market Jn .

But the point is, two of these lines will be dedicated to Thameslink only, which is a massive boost for them poor old SE passengers will be stuck with the same old two lines they have now. Massive pain for not much gain as far as I can see.

 

[neilm]

Well you will have the new london bridge train station and I am assume once it is done there will be a bit more capacity as paths will be freed up and also more reliable since se trains will not be affected by thameslink.

 

[acepepper]

I live near New Cross and Deptford and I am not looking forward to the chaos of the next few years. I also assumed that relieving the Borough market bottleneck was part of the plans. What will be the long term effect of the works, both for my own stations, and the greater SE network?

Do you think that most normal commuters have any idea of the disruption they'll face for the next few years? For instance how many, I wonder realize that no Charing Cross services will stop at London Bridge, (up or down) for 18 months?

 

[hwl]

I live near New Cross and Deptford and I am not looking forward to the chaos of the next few years. I also assumed that relieving the Borough market bottleneck was part of the plans. What will be the long term effect of the works, both for my own stations, and the greater SE network?

1. The Limitation is capacity at Charing Cross both now and after the works so there is no point adding more lines through Borough Market to towards Charing Cross.

2. All Charing Cross services will stop at London Bridge in just under 2 years times onwards (currently circa 10tph in the am peak go through the up loop next to P6 without stopping at the moment).

3. The dwell times on Up Charing Cross services will increase so combined with 2. it should be easier to get on a Charing Cross service at London Bridge in the morning peak post works.

4. All Greenwich line services go to Cannon Street from January (exc. engineering work on occasional Sundays post works?). This means other services will get diverted to Charing Cross etc. instead.

5. The in peaks you will get 16tph of "Southern" Thameslink services between London Bridge and Blackfriars (& Beyond). Thameslink services effectively can't operate in the peaks at the moment (currently 1tph in 1 direction in the peaks) due to the borough market bottleneck. This is the Borough Market Bottleneck that is being removed as there isn't a Southeastern one. This provides Southeastern passenegers a service every 2.5 - 5 minutes to Blackfriars in the peaks which currently doesn't exist which might be a better alternative for those who work on the western side of the Square mile or Temple area etc.

 

[NSEFAN]

But the point is, two of these lines will be dedicated to Thameslink only, which is a massive boost for them poor old SE passengers will be stuck with the same old two lines they have now. Massive pain for not much gain as far as I can see.

Look at the diagram that JamesRowden posted. What's happening is the services will become better segregated. This is a big boost for capacity because the number of conflicts is reduced, even though the number of lines hasn't increased.

 

[greatkingrat]

There will be an improvement in platform capacity at London Bridge, as there will be four platforms just for Charing Cross services, while currently there are only three for both CX and Blackfriars trains combined. This will allow the peak trains that currently skip London Bridge to stop there.

 

[acepepper]

I need the experts to confirm but I believe no they will be dedicated to thameslink. Otherwise it would defeat the object of the whole programme and the bermondsey dive under.

I'm no expert but I'm a SE driver and at the recent briefing we were given, we were told that the new lines will be Thameslink only. We will never use them. That's when it dawned on me that SE passengers are being sold a pup.

 

[hwl]

Do you think that most normal commuters have any idea of the disruption they'll face for the next few years? For instance how many, I wonder realize that no Charing Cross services will stop at London Bridge, (up or down) for 18 months?

The foot higher vinyl lettering outlining what is happening to services post January went up over most prevosuly blank bits of hoarding at the weekend - but I still reckon that most have very little idea...
The Charing Cross passengers will get a small taster in December on the Up services of what awaits...

 

[NSE]

Surely it still benefits SE passengers. Even if the new lines are for TL only, then that's still taking four trains each way off an hour. Meaning that SE and TL are completely separate so no more one disrupting the other.

 

[acepepper]

Surely it still benefits SE passengers. Even if the new lines are for TL only, then that's still taking four trains each way off an hour. Meaning that SE and TL are completely separate so no more one disrupting the other.

It will relieve pressure, no doubt about that, but it's not going to be the Nirvana that those selling it are trying to make out.

 

[NSE]

It will relieve pressure, no doubt about that, but it's not going to be the Nirvana that those selling it are trying to make out.

Oh no, it wont be perfect. I understand for the all the hassle you're gonna get you probably would like more to make up for it. But at least you are getting something :P

 

[acepepper]

The foot higher vinyl lettering outlining what is happening to services post January went up over most prevosuly blank bits of hoarding at the weekend - but I still reckon that most have very little idea...
The Charing Cross passengers will get a small taster in December on the Up services of what awaits...

I spoke to a regular London Bridge commuter yesterday and he looked like I'd punched him in the gut when I told him about the 18 month non stopping CX trains. He had absolutely no clue. I honestly think he walked away not fully believing me.

 

[hwl]

I'm no expert but I'm a SE driver and at the recent briefing we were given, we were told that the new lines will be Thameslink only. We will never use them. That's when it dawned on me that SE passengers are being sold a pup.

Largely true - A bit more reliability and a "new" station is what most SE users will see. (i.e. 18tph? on P6 in the mornings will drop to 14tph on the new P8&9)
Those who change at LBG will see a bigger benefit.
There will actually be slight reductions in service to CHX and CST after the works but that is based on move to 12 car trains.

CHX 29tph max to 28tph max post works
CST 25tph max to 22tph* max post works (because of loss of paths for ECS via the curve to Blackfriars) *might be slightly higher but they don't seem to want to over promise at this stage.
But with more services to Blackfriars via Catford Loop to compensate.

Greenwich Line also gets Crossrail from Abbey Wood in 2018.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm no expert but I'm a SE driver and at the recent briefing we were given, we were told that the new lines will be Thameslink only. We will never use them. That's when it dawned on me that SE passengers are being sold a pup.

SE is getting new station plus the brand new viaduct is purely for CX services. The current line is going to be Thameslink only. The two cant mix in timetable tabled service due to Thameslink ATO. However they can share if required tho this will adversely affect Thameslink.

The other side that is being ignored is fact that SE will get more carriages as part of the Thameslink Project due to displaced to the arrival of Class 700s.

So its not quite as bleak as its been painted but simply put there is no way London Bridge rebuild isn't a better thing for SE commuters.

 

[acepepper]

SE is getting new station plus the brand new viaduct is purely for CX services. The current line is going to be Thameslink only. The two cant mix in timetable tabled service due to Thameslink ATO. However they can share if required tho this will adversely affect Thameslink.

The other side that is being ignored is fact that SE will get more carriages as part of the Thameslink Project due to displaced to the arrival of Class 700s.

So its not quite as bleak as its been painted but simply put there is no way London Bridge rebuild isn't a better thing for SE commuters.

Does that mean that SE will be getting Thameslink's 319 and 377 fleets?

 

[SF-02]

What's the exact problem tonight at London Bridge with safety checks causing a lot of problems?

Cutting 4 Thameslink trains from interfering with SE paths wont do much for peak time congestion as those 4 disappear from the peaks right now as it is. Is a bit less crossing over from Greenwich trains and a few more stopping at L Bridge the extent of improvements? A better station too of course.

I feel for southeastern users. Must be the worst treated in the South East of England. I would've put GA there with them but at least some Londoners that use them will benefit from going to LO soon. SE suburban trains are filthy, reliability is poor, stock inadequate and Thameslink doesn't look to do much for years of pain. It needs to be done but some sweeteners to SE would've been nice like longer trains now, better evening & weekend frequencies etc. People expect this post 2018 but no guarantees.

 

[user15681]

Positives that I see?

- Complete segregation of SE and TL routes, thanks to Borough and Bermondsey alterations. One up and one down solely for CHX services past London Bridge, no more sharing with BFR bounds.
- 4 through platforms for CHX only now (2 up 2 down) and 2 through platforms for BFR bound trains now, compared to current 3 through platforms (and one through road) shared between CHX and BFR bound trains.

Nobody has ever sold the Thameslink programme as huge improvements for SE though - it's always been huge improvements for the Thameslink route, with some improvements for SE.

CHX - Charing Cross
BFR - Blackfriars
SE - Southeastern
TL - Thameslink

 

[hwl]

Does that mean that SE will be getting Thameslink's 319 and 377 fleets?

25x 377s from Southern DC only fleet of 4 car units (probably the oldest ones that are most similar to SE's 375s) and rumours of some more stock ex Thameslink or GN.

 

[SF-02]

Does that mean that SE will be getting Thameslink's 319 and 377 fleets?

Getting some 377/1s but in Dec 2017 just as London Bridge rebuild is completing (so more paths than there will be from Jan 2015 and also less congestion) and Crossrail opening so the need for stock will be reducing. They're needed from January 2015 with service cuts.

 

[acepepper]

Positives that I see?

- Complete segregation of SE and TL routes, thanks to Borough and Bermondsey alterations. One up and one down solely for CHX services past London Bridge, no more sharing with BFR bounds.
- 4 through platforms for CHX only now (2 up 2 down) and 2 through platforms for BFR bound trains now, compared to current 3 through platforms (and one through road) shared between CHX and BFR bound trains.

Nobody has ever sold the Thameslink programme as huge improvements for SE though - it's always been huge improvements for the Thameslink route, with some improvements for SE.

CHX - Charing Cross
BFR - Blackfriars
SE - Southeastern
TL - Thameslink

I can't see two up platforms speeding things up to be honest. There are two up platforms for Cannon St, but still only one train at a time can leave. It will be the same on the CX side.

 

[user15681]

25x 377s from Southern DC only fleet of 4 car units (probably the oldest ones that are most similar to SE's 375s) and rumours of some more stock ex Thameslink or GN.

Getting some 377/1s but in Dec 2017 just as London Bridge rebuild is completing (so more paths than from Jan 2015 and less congestion) and Crossrail opening so the need for stock will be reducing. They're needed from January 2015 with service cuts.

Ball is already rolling on a small amount of additional stock very soon.

 

[Taunton]

I really do feel the works programme has been organised for the convenience of the construction contractors and not for the passengers - which is of course the new 21st Century way of doing projects.

As I understand it -

No trains from the "north side" of the SE (eg via Greenwich) to Charing Cross ever again.

No Thameslink through London Bridge at all for the next several years. This ruins a convenient way from the West End/Canary Wharf etc via the Jubilee Line to Gatwick Airport etc.

No trains to Charing Cross will stop at London Bridge for the next couple of years. Among other things, this means those from Greenwich etc (point above) to Waterloo/Charing Cross cannot even change at London Bridge to get to Charing Cross.

As there have been some ridiculous moment of excessive hype from the PR side of this project in the past, like all the ludicrous puffs about the new viaduct across Borough Market being "completed", and how wonderful that would now make journeys, completely ignoring that although the civils bit was finished no tracks were going to be laid on it for several more years, I presume we are in for more rubbish about what a wonderful improvement the new changes from December are.