London Bridge reconstruction works

[swt_passenger]

Congrats on getting all the work done on time. One thing that I noticed, though not something that will impact operationally, is the sheer amount of apparently untreated concrete exposed to the weather that is used at the station and graffiti on the new bridge.

It's a constant battle with graffiti along there. IIRC the site was hit on a few occasions early in the build. One of the problems is that the sound barriers required as part of the TWA Order are a bit of a soft target.

Edited to add this

A few slo-mo videos have appeared on David Harvey's flickr site:

Down approach to new viaduct: https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/24187700015/in/photostream/

Continuation along viaduct towards the station: https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/23892754550/in/photostream/

Run through Platform 7: https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/24106622981/in/photostream/

Up approach to new viaduct: https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/24098601461/in/photostream/

Up approach and run through platform 9: https://www.flickr.com/photos/unravelled/24072247912/in/photostream/

 

[urpert]

Some pretty low speed limits on the new viaduct. Are those permanent?

 

[jnjkerbin]

Some pretty low speed limits on the new viaduct. Are those permanent?

The limit is 20mph which (I think) are about the same as they were before the works.

 

[swt_passenger]

Some pretty low speed limits on the new viaduct. Are those permanent?

I'd expect so. High frequency, with up to 28 tph on the two track railway to Charing Cross, and stations close together, will always lead to low speed approaches.

Just the same wiith the Thameslink core, people have asked why no speed increase, but it isn't possible due to the nature of the railway.

I have some very poor quality pdfs of the layout which show a maximum of 25 mph in some areas, as seen in the videos.

 

[ScotGG]

They will remove some of the padding through the thameslink core though when its fully running? That doesn't require speed limit increases. So much time sitting at stations. Nothing as bad on the tube.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some pretty low speed limits on the new viaduct. Are those permanent?

Yes, limited by signal spacing and curvature.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

One thing that I noticed, though not something that will impact operationally, is the sheer amount of apparently untreated concrete exposed to the weather that is used at the station and graffiti on the new bridge.

I've just had a look at the videos posted above, and I'm astonished at the amount of graffiti, given this is a construction site and live railway, I'm a little disappointed security arrangements aren't better.

What gives ? Just a logistics issue, planning being a nuisance or what ?

 

[carriageline]

Yes, limited by signal spacing and curvature.

Is there not a TSR on there currently? I did see a document on the desk about it, didn't read into too much detail though.

 

[gtr driver]

I've just had a look at the videos posted above, and I'm astonished at the amount of graffiti, given this is a construction site and live railway, I'm a little disappointed security arrangements aren't better.

What gives ? Just a logistics issue, planning being a nuisance or what ?

No, just a bizarre cultural change in the UK that means a section of the population think it's acceptable to have no respect for public property and vandalise it constantly.

 

[350401]

Have Network Rail or their contractors made any efforts to remove the graffiti or put security fences in place to limit access? Network Rail, unlike TfL, don't seem to make any attempt to clear graffiti. The tube and DLR, even the above ground parts, are virtually graffiti free. The comparison between the NR tracks and the DLR tracks between Fenchurch St / Tower Gateway and Limehouse is very noticeable. Surely it can't be that hard to paint out the parts visible near the station? Especially on such a flagship and expensive project?

 

[swt_passenger]

I've just had a look at the videos posted above, and I'm astonished at the amount of graffiti, given this is a construction site and live railway, I'm a little disappointed security arrangements aren't better.

What gives ? Just a logistics issue, planning being a nuisance or what ?

I suspect part of the problem has been finishing the viaduct in 2011, and then (as planned all along) not really restarting on that part of the worksite until comparatively recently. Throughout 2012 there was very little activity in the new viaduct area, but even with trains about on the existing viaduct the 'artists' don't seem to consider a live railway to be much of an obstacle.

 

[hwl]

Some pretty low speed limits on the new viaduct. Are those permanent?

David's videos are slowed down so it is easier to see the detail - it isn't that slow in reality!

Up is 25 from the end of P8/9 to the last gantry before CHX and down is 25 from CHX to the future points just before P7(/6).
20 through the platforms 6-9 at LBG but as everything will be stopping it won't matter.
To the East:
Down lines are 30mph to the next gantry (Up are 20) then beyond that all lines 55 or 60 to the east.

 

[Barn]

Question that's just struck me. I guess that drivers update their route knowledge over things like the new viaduct by studying signal placement, speed limits, etc, on paper. Then is the first time they do it for real in passenger service?

Presumably, except for drivers who happen to be tasked with driving the test trains, there wouldn't be time for drivers to 'practise' on many of these changes prior to opening.

 

[gtr driver]

Have Network Rail or their contractors made any efforts to remove the graffiti or put security fences in place to limit access? Network Rail, unlike TfL, don't seem to make any attempt to clear graffiti. The tube and DLR, even the above ground parts, are virtually graffiti free. The comparison between the NR tracks and the DLR tracks between Fenchurch St / Tower Gateway and Limehouse is very noticeable. Surely it can't be that hard to paint out the parts visible near the station? Especially on such a flagship and expensive project?

Network Rail fence off the entire railway and spend an awful lot of time cleaning graffiti off. But ultimately it has to be an open environment to some degree and every possible access point can't be secured or guarded all the time. A possession is needed to access the areas that need cleaning and the scope for possessions are increasingly scarce. Ultimately this isn't a problem they should HAVE to deal with. The scale of vandalism now is a problem for society, one could argue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Question that's just struck me. I guess that drivers update their route knowledge over things like the new viaduct by studying signal placement, speed limits, etc, on paper. Then is the first time they do it for real in passenger service?

Presumably, except for drivers who happen to be tasked with driving the test trains, there wouldn't be time for drivers to 'practise' on many of these changes prior to opening.

Most likely, yes. Route learning trains are not unknown but lack of capacity and staff shortages makes them difficult. Probably impossible on a busy stretch of railway such as this.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there not a TSR on there currently? I did see a document on the desk about it, didn't read into too much detail though.

All the welding got done, so the TSRs are SPATEd on the ground.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Question that's just struck me. I guess that drivers update their route knowledge over things like the new viaduct by studying signal placement, speed limits, etc, on paper. Then is the first time they do it for real in passenger service?

Presumably, except for drivers who happen to be tasked with driving the test trains, there wouldn't be time for drivers to 'practise' on many of these changes prior to opening.

It's done with specific briefing documents, and a CGI drivers eye DVD of the new route. All done on training days specifically for that purpose in the weeks leading up to the new layout commissioning. Reports back from the drivers I know say the CGI is really good.

 

[carriageline]

I think us signallers had the same documents, and the attention to detail is fantastic, even down to graffiti

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely it can't be that hard to paint out the parts visible near the station? Especially on such a flagship and expensive project?

They do. And the little ****ers come back, repeatedly.

 

[hemsl]

Network Rail fence off the entire railway and spend an awful lot of time cleaning graffiti off. But ultimately it has to be an open environment to some degree and every possible access point can't be secured or guarded all the time. A possession is needed to access the areas that need cleaning and the scope for possessions are increasingly scarce. Ultimately this isn't a problem they should HAVE to deal with. The scale of vandalism now is a problem for society, one could argue.

I completely agree that that Network Rail should not be blamed for the problem being created: the vandals alone are culpable for their mindless behaviour.

However the comparison between Network Rail-maintained property and TfL's is still valid. I agree that TfL seem to do a far better job of removing graffiti, and presumably have the same challenges of track-access, etc. It's a shame that Network Rail don't do as good a job - even if they shouldn't have to in the first place.

 

[67018]

No, just a bizarre cultural change in the UK that means a section of the population think it's acceptable to have no respect for public property and vandalise it constantly.

Lamentable, yes, but a culture change? Not a recent one, that's for sure, it's been a problem around there for at least 25 years and probably longer.

 

[GodAtum]

I'm afraid to stay I don't like the new station layout. They have not put the middle platform bridge back in which was very useful for waiting and changing platforms without walking all the way back to the end.

 

[theageofthetra]

What do you make of the scaffolding special extension to the country end roof of P1/2?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm afraid to stay I don't like the new station layout. They have not put the middle platform bridge back in which was very useful for waiting and changing platforms without walking all the way back to the end.

Are you talking about the Southern platforms here, or the through platforms?

There'll be no walking all the way back to the end of the through platforms, they have no end access, what you can see are fire escapes. It is logically the same as Reading, with stairs and escalators both London and country side of a massive circulating space, the difference being that it is underneath rather than above.

There will be routes to/from the terminating platforms without going all the way to the buffers, but they won't be open until the lower concourse opens.

 

[GodAtum]

Are you talking about the Southern platforms here, or the through platforms?

There'll be no walking all the way back to the end of the through platforms, they have no end access, what you can see are fire escapes. It is logically the same as Reading, with stairs and escalators both London and country side of a massive circulating space, the difference being that it is underneath rather than above.

There will be routes to/from the terminating platforms without going all the way to the buffers, but they won't be open until the lower concourse opens.

Yes the Southern platforms. Will there be a lower concourse to replace the overbridge then?

 

[Barn]

I think it'll look great when it opens.

Two questions though:

Will a person standing on a platform be able to look across and see all other platforms (and appreciate the scale of the space), or will their view be blocked by a wall between the terminating and through platforms?

I still can't quite understand how the promised swathes of natural light enter the concourse. Most of the roof is presumably either platform or track bed. Will the openings be where the escalators go through the platforms? If so, will those areas be covered over by the platform canopies? Or are they glass above the escalators?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes the Southern platforms. Will there be a lower concourse to replace the overbridge then?

Yes, this one:

I think I've partially answered my second question. But I can't quite tell if there is glazing directly above the escalators.

 

[GodAtum]

Which way are the escalators facing, London or country?

 

[hwl]

Which way are the escalators facing, London or country?

The through platforms will have 2 sets 1 facing in each direction.
In that image facing North West (towards the actual bridge) the city end escalators and stairs are shown, the country end are hidden in the gaps between the shops to the right. the entrance to the tube station can be seen in the background to the left of the escalator bank.

Terminating platforms only have one bank at the country end as the current concourse is staying.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it'll look great when it opens.

Two questions though:

Will a person standing on a platform be able to look across and see all other platforms (and appreciate the scale of the space), or will their view be blocked by a wall between the terminating and through platforms?

I still can't quite understand how the promised swathes of natural light enter the concourse. Most of the roof is presumably either platform or track bed. Will the openings be where the escalators go through the platforms? If so, will those areas be covered over by the platform canopies? Or are they glass above the escalators?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Yes, this one:

I think I've partially answered my second question. But I can't quite tell if there is glazing directly above the escalators.

1. Wall between terminating and through platforms along the side of track 9 (visible in the video linked yesterday)

2. Northlights above the centre of each platform (e.g. above escalators and lifts)

 

[swt_passenger]

Terminating platforms only have one bank at the country end as the current concourse is staying.

I'd just add the detail that the terminating platform escalators are about ⅓ of the way along the platform, and are in line across the whole station with the country end escalators of platforms 1-9.

So when in the paid side of the main ground level concourse all the 'east facing' escalators will be going down to a similar position IYSWIM.

I've attached an extract from a planning drawing - it may have appeared earlier in one of the previous discussions about the layout.

 

[snowball]

Yes, this one:

I think I've seen a version of that image with all the same station details but different people!

 

[ScotGG]

Three platforms for Charing Cross services will certainly be a big improvement but I wonder how long it'll be enough. Cannon Street services already have use of three platforms and tonight I've watched how some small delays have built up as even that's not enough as they queue up to go through the one up platform at London Bridge.

 

[swt_passenger]

Three platforms for Charing Cross services will certainly be a big improvement but I wonder how long it'll be enough. Cannon Street services already have use of three platforms and tonight I've watched how some small delays have built up as even that's not enough as they queue up to go through the one up platform at London Bridge.

It's four platforms for Charing Cross eventually though. What's just opened is not finished, because the P6 track and structure is not there yet. Then when it is, in August, it will be needed temporarily for the up Cannon St route.

Final layout is 3 for Cannon St, 2 for Thameslink, 4 for Charing Cross. 9 in total.

The Cannon St lines are currently capacity limited because there are only two tracks available east of London Bridge, rather than the usual three.