London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

I noticed on a recent visit that the New Routemasters are increasingly looking scruffy with faded paint work, replacement panels in different shades of red, scrapes and dents, partially or fully missing roundals on the front.

Is this because they are owned by TfL rather than the private bus firms, so no money to repaint them, or maybe just my imagination due them being probably some of the oldest buses currently seen in Central London?

TfL were due to start a mid life refurbishment of them, the Board papers (from memory the financial, or investment committee) about 9 months ago had £25-50m allocated. There was a Part2 (restricted) section which probably gave more details.

I think the Operators are just patching them up in meantime. There also seems to be problems with spare parts as there are quite a few that haven’t run for months per LVF (London vehicle finder)
From LVF following not used in September
LT 8, 9, 11, 17, 22, 94, 149, 174, 177, 243, 284, 378, 382, 403, 471, 576, 661, 832, 953, 964

So 2% of the fleet appear to be out of use longer term, (not just few days for maintenance) which suggests fixing them is low priority .

 

[londonteacher]

I have noticed today that TFL have changed some announcements on buses such as the one about diversions, driver change over and regulation of service. I have to say they now seem very polite!

 

[Snow1964]

TfL have a proposal for 2150 new electric buses in the funding settlement with Government

Utilising this operating model and working collaboratively with bus operators and manufacturers, a commitment to an investment of £190m would enable the delivery of 2,150 new electric buses, spread over the initial contract term of these buses.

There would be around 400 buses delivered in 2022/23, 900 buses in 2023/24 and 850 buses in 2024/25, including ongoing costs from 2022/23 and 2023/24. This investment is needed now to unlock the introduction of zero-emission vehicles on the routes we will contract in the next two to three years.

See page 21 of Link for further details

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/b2337/Supplementary%20Agenda%20Wednesday%2006-Oct-2021%2010.00%20Finance%20Committee.pdf?T=9

 

[Mikey C]

TfL have a proposal for 2150 new electric buses in the funding settlement with Government





See page 21 of Link for further details

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/b2337/Supplementary%20Agenda%20Wednesday%2006-Oct-2021%2010.00%20Finance%20Committee.pdf?T=9

Sensibly emphasising the benefit to UK "green" manufacturing, though I'm not sure whether TfL/the government could/should insist on operators mainly operating "British" buses rather than say the upcoming Volvo/MCV electric double decker?

 

[johncrossley]

I'm not sure whether TfL/the government could/should insist on operators mainly operating "British" buses rather than say the upcoming Volvo/MCV electric double decker?

I wouldn't be surprised if they *could*, but I don't think they *should*. I would prefer the best buses regardless of where they come from. Let's face it, British buses have a reputation for being cheap and low standard.

 

[Volvodart]

Have the UK suppliers got enough capacity? For instance, the Scottish Government is looking to have around 2,000 new zero emission buses, they say by the end of 2023 according to their programme for Government, but that timescale seems unrealistic.

 

[MotCO]

I wouldn't be surprised if they *could*, but I don't think they *should*. I would prefer the best buses regardless of where they come from. Let's face it, British buses have a reputation for being cheap and low standard.

But what is a 'British' bus? ADL currently use Chinese chassis from BYD so does that count as British? And isn't there a Canadian connection with hydrogen buses? It would avoid Caetano or Yutong products.

 

[Snow1964]

But what is a 'British' bus? ADL currently use Chinese chassis from BYD so does that count as British? And isn't there a Canadian connection with hydrogen buses? It would avoid Caetano or Yutong products.

ADL are moving to build the chassis themselves, the BYD chassis has been coming from Hungary. The BYD motors and batteries from China

I think Wrightbus are planning to use French batteries (from Forsee) or hydrogen packs (from Ballard of Canada).

Caetano assemble buses in Portugal, MCV assemble in Egypt.

I think various parts come from multiple countries : front axles and steering from Europe, Passenger seats from Italy, Destination displays from Sweden, Tyres from various. So basically no such thing as a 100% British bus. So any Government subsidy is supporting foreign factories and jobs.

 

[Mikey C]

ADL are moving to build the chassis themselves, the BYD chassis has been coming from Hungary. The BYD motors and batteries from China

I think Wrightbus are planning to use French batteries (from Forsee) or hydrogen packs (from Ballard of Canada).

Caetano assemble buses in Portugal, MCV assemble in Egypt.

I think various parts come from multiple countries : front axles and steering from Europe, Passenger seats from Italy, Destination displays from Sweden, Tyres from various. So basically no such thing as a 100% British bus. So any Government subsidy is supporting foreign factories and jobs.

But there's still a significant difference in UK content between a UK assembled bus and one assembled abroad. And symbolically it's the final assembly point which tends to be the most important aspect...

 

[londonbridge]

Sorry to go off topic but on the TfL 249 route two bus shelters have been removed which were opposite each other at the junction of Church Rd and Beulah Hill by the Church. These were illuminated with glass sides. Are Tfl going on a cost cutting exercise?

The shelter at the 403/154 stop outside Fairfield Halls in Croydon was removed some time ago, there's a note on the stop saying it will be replaced by a smart shelter in autumn '21, no sign of it yet.

 

[Brooke]

There was sadly a serious incident on an N25 at Mile End last night. Unfortunately the bus involved was the current Spirit of London.

Source: https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/mile-end-stabbing-live-updates-21910237

A man is in hospital in a 'critical condition' after a stabbing on an East London bus, while two others were also taken to hospital with reportedly non life-threatening injuries.

The station and the A11 Mile End Road were closed for much of the morning while police conducted an investigation.

Tower Hamlets police Tweeted: "Due to an ongoing investigation into a serious assault that occurred earlier this morning- the West bound carriageway of Mile End Road, and Mile End Underground Station remains closed at this time."

The Met has since confirmed that one man, 34, is in a critical condition, while two others, 34 and 22, were also taken to hospital but there injuries were not believed to be life-threatening.

Police were alerted to reports of a man with a knife on a N25 bus at 12.48am.

A 34-year-old man was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm and remains in custody in an East London police station.

From my observations, the incident happened around 1am with a fast response from the emergency services. Things were getting cleared up around 8am and Mile End Road fully reopened shortly after.

 

[Mikey C]

There was sadly a serious incident on an N25 at Mile End last night. Unfortunately the bus involved was the current Spirit of London.

Source: https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/mile-end-stabbing-live-updates-21910237

From my observations, the incident happened around 1am with a fast response from the emergency services. Things were getting cleared up around 8am and Mile End Road fully reopened shortly after.

On the BBC as well, Spirit of London buses haven't had much luck really

Mile End stabbing: Man critical after attack on east London night bus

Two other people had knife injuries after the attack on the bus outside Mile End Tube station.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Busaholic]

There was sadly a serious incident on an N25 at Mile End last night. Unfortunately the bus involved was the current Spirit of London.

Source: https://www.mylondon.news/news/east-london-news/mile-end-stabbing-live-updates-21910237



From my observations, the incident happened around 1am with a fast response from the emergency services. Things were getting cleared up around 8am and Mile End Road fully reopened shortly after.

There was a survey done a few years ago amongst night bus passengers to gauge the most dangerous or unpleasant night bus route and, perhaps a surprise to some, the (N)25 didn't feature in the top10. The comparatively unknown route 262 from Stratford to Beckton topped the list, not far from where this incident occurred.

 

[moogal]

There was a survey done a few years ago amongst night bus passengers to gauge the most dangerous or unpleasant night bus route and, perhaps a surprise to some, the (N)25 didn't feature in the top10. The comparatively unknown route 262 from Stratford to Beckton topped the list, not far from where this incident occurred.

It used to be one of my local routes and (especially after conversion to double deckers) didn't seem to be that bad compared to certain others (in comparison, I remember spending a lot of time sat on stationary N20 buses while drivers attempted to deal with problem passengers)

 

[j_walker1804]

Latest tender results are in….


220 retained by London United existing diesel DD buses
226 awarded to London United currently Metroline West. New electric SD.
295 awarded to London United currently Metroline West new electric DD.

Presumably the 226/295 will be going to Westbourne Park as they have electric charging facilities already.

 

[Mikey C]

Latest tender results are in….


220 retained by London United existing diesel DD buses
226 awarded to London United currently Metroline West. New electric SD.
295 awarded to London United currently Metroline West new electric DD.

Presumably the 226/295 will be going to Westbourne Park as they have electric charging facilities already.

Isn't Westbourne Park a Metroline garage?

I assume the electric buses will be ADLs, based on previous orders.

 

[Busaholic]

Isn't Westbourne Park a Metroline garage?

I assume the electric buses will be ADLs, based on previous orders.

Westbourne Park and its routes, formerly Tower Transit, will be operated by a new company majority owned by RATP. London United's owners, from about December 2021.

 

[Mikey C]

Westbourne Park and its routes, formerly Tower Transit, will be operated by a new company majority owned by RATP. London United's owners, from about December 2021.

Of course, sorry had a complete brain fade, somehow turning the Tower Transit garage into a Metroline one!

 

[MotCO]

Westbourne Park and its routes, formerly Tower Transit, will be operated by a new company majority owned by RATP. London United's owners, from about December 2021.

Isn't Westbourne Park a Metroline garage?

I assume the electric buses will be ADLs, based on previous orders.

But Tower Transit favoured Optares . I suppose it depends who can meet the delivery dates - in which case it won't be Optare (sorry, Switch).

 

[LAIRA]

Latest tender results are in….


220 retained by London United existing diesel DD buses
226 awarded to London United currently Metroline West. New electric SD.
295 awarded to London United currently Metroline West new electric DD.

Presumably the 226/295 will be going to Westbourne Park as they have electric charging facilities already.

226 is nearer Atlas Road garage and all garages will have to be electric soon, so this could be the first one at Atlas Road

 

[Busaholic]

226 is nearer Atlas Road garage and all garages will have to be electric soon, so this could be the first one at Atlas Road

I'd have thought this is more likely too, at least in the medium term.

 

[Mikey C]

There's about a year before the electric buses enter service, is that long enough to "wire up" a garage?

 

[Busoccultation]

There's about a year before the electric buses enter service, is that long enough to "wire up" a garage?

It should do, but despite that RATP still haven't been able to finish the electrification works at Fulwell and Harrow garages despite the tender announcements for the EV routes at those garages was announced this time last year.

S & X are both electrified so it shouldn't be too much of an issue for whichever garage the 295 would end up at, though the 70 would likely need to move out to S and transfer to X to make space and which means they would need to put some BYD changers there for its allocated BE's should RATP decide to send to 295 to S. The 226, on the other hand, would most likely go to RP as mentioned above and that will need some electrification works done before the new buses for the route can be used.

 

[busesrusuk]

It should do, but despite that RATP still haven't been able to finish the electrification works at Fulwell and Harrow garages despite the tender announcements for the EV routes at those garages was announced this time last year.

S & X are both electrified so it shouldn't be too much of an issue for whichever garage the 295 would end up at, though the 70 would likely need to move out to S and transfer to X to make space and which means they would need to put some BYD changers there for its allocated BE's should RATP decide to send to 295 to S. The 226, on the other hand, would most likely go to RP as mentioned above and that will need some electrification works done before the new buses for the route can be used.

Maybe Wandsworth for the 295???

 

[galwhv69]

Maybe Wandsworth for the 295???

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Wandsworth is likely to close for TfL work, so only Sightseeing will be based there

 

[busesrusuk]

It's been mentioned elsewhere that Wandsworth is likely to close for TfL work, so only Sightseeing will be based there

That would be a surprise move - its not a cheap option to set up a garage for TfL work given that its only very recent that they have set the place up to operate TfL services.

Time will tell though...

 

[Mikey C]

I was quite surprised to yesterday see Go Ahead WVLs on the 129, still with coloured skirts.

It seems ages ago that TfL insisted that buses had to be in all red (with no coloured skirts, stripes or swirls), and I had assumed that operators would have been given a time limit to modify existing buses?

 

[90sWereBetter]

I was quite surprised to yesterday see Go Ahead WVLs on the 129, still with coloured skirts.

It seems ages ago that TfL insisted that buses had to be in all red (with no coloured skirts, stripes or swirls), and I had assumed that operators would have been given a time limit to modify existing buses?

I think there's only about 10-20 buses left with the old Go-Ahead livery, nearly all of them 2010 WVLs and Es which missed out on the refurbishment process. From an enthusiast side, I do wish this rule was relaxed, Stagecoach and Metroline's London liveries brightened the place up no end in the 2000s. From an engineering and financial side, just one colour certainly makes the books look a lot happier!

I'm not sure if this was a plan or just hearsay, but I swear there was a rumour TFL were going to insist on a standard moquette and interior for buses a few years ago, which is why CT Plus and Sullivan Buses use gold handrails and a red/grey moquette with roundels in them. Clearly this edict never came into force, given the Big 5 (and Tower Transit ) are all still specifying their own interiors.

 

[317 forever]

I was quite surprised to yesterday see Go Ahead WVLs on the 129, still with coloured skirts.

It seems ages ago that TfL insisted that buses had to be in all red (with no coloured skirts, stripes or swirls), and I had assumed that operators would have been given a time limit to modify existing buses?

Once buses were refurbished or repainted they would lose their coloured skirts. A handful have still not been touched even after all these years. I saw a similar one on route 432 in August

 

[Busaholic]

I think there's only about 10-20 buses left with the old Go-Ahead livery, nearly all of them 2010 WVLs and Es which missed out on the refurbishment process. From an enthusiast side, I do wish this rule was relaxed, Stagecoach and Metroline's London liveries brightened the place up no end in the 2000s. From an engineering and financial side, just one colour certainly makes the books look a lot happier!

I'm not sure if this was a plan or just hearsay, but I swear there was a rumour TFL were going to insist on a standard moquette and interior for buses a few years ago, which is why CT Plus and Sullivan Buses use gold handrails and a red/grey moquette with roundels in them. Clearly this edict never came into force, given the Big 5 (and Tower Transit ) are all still specifying their own interiors.

If TfL decide that buses on their routes should be all red so as to avoid public confusion, then how come allover advert buses are allowed, whether for products, a 'cause' or royal matters? Personally, I thought the 80% red rule gave sufficient leeway for each bus company to differentiate themselves from other companies while causing no upset to any potential passenger. If all the buses are to look the same inside and out, then surely the next logical move is for TfL to dictate, order and then operate the buses themselves? How novel an idea that would be!