London Buses Discussion

[Edsmith]

Overbussed? I wonder why the Bakerloo Line extension that way is the number one priority on the TfL wish list, then. The 168 gave the only direct route to Waterloo, Holborn etc, while the 53 has been ridiculously cut back to no longer cross the Thames. Not everyone wants to change buses at Elephant or Bricklayer's to complete a relatively short journey. The people of almost tubeless S.E. London are always treated lamentably by transport authorities.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, the revised route 1 covers the ex 168 route from Bricklayers Arms all the way to Hampstead Heath and the other few stops still have the 172 to Waterloo and Aldwych. The Bakerloo Line extension has been 'in the pipeline' for 50 years or more.

 

[Busaholic]

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, the revised route 1 covers the ex 168 route from Bricklayers Arms all the way to Hampstead Heath and the other few stops still have the 172 to Waterloo and Aldwych. The Bakerloo Line extension has been 'in the pipeline' for 50 years or more.

You're overlooking the 168 starting from halfway down Old Kent Road i.e. an empty bus rather than one potentially, or actually, full from further afield, which was why it terminated there in the first place. I agree it's not a huge decision, but I was answering the question about why the 1 was extended with my reply about cost cutting and identifying which group of passengers would be most affected, imo, but I shan't argue the point any further.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You're overlooking the 168 starting from halfway down Old Kent Road i.e. an empty bus rather than one potentially, or actually, full from further afield, which was why it terminated there in the first place. I agree it's not a huge decision, but I was answering the question about why the 1 was extended with my reply about cost cutting and identifying which group of passengers would be most affected, imo, but I shan't argue the point any further.

The other corridor which is losing capacity as a result of this cut/change is (part of) the N-S Aldwych-Euston connection. Every time there are changes made in central London, we seem to lose another route somewhere there.

 

[Edsmith]

The other corridor which is losing capacity as a result of this cut/change is (part of) the N-S Aldwych-Euston connection. Every time there are changes made in central London, we seem to lose another route somewhere there.

That's the whole point of it to reduce over bussing, demand in Central London is never going to return to pre pandemic levels.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would say that that time it has returned, I don't use buses in central London all that much but when I do quite a few of them are very overloaded and reliability then suffers

 

[76020]

I am sorry if you know this already but I have found out a trick on the London Bus Finder website, I accidently entered a London Bus registration number with the last digit missing and to my surprise it listed all the buses with the first six digits of this registration number including two buses in Bolton, please see the example below.
So I tried to list all the New Routemasters (LT's) by entering LTZ which is the first three digits of all the Boris Buses and it listed everyone of them, I could even see the two that have been withdrawn which are LT8 and LT174

Oper	Fleet	Reg	Route	Destination	Time	Stop	Stop Name
GAL	SEe243e	LG73FYC	450	last seen at 13:41 04-10-2023
GAL	SEe244e	LG73FYD	450	Lower Sydenham	16:37	51335	Bedford Hall
GAL	SEe245e	LG73FYE	450	last seen at 23:50 03-10-2023
GAL	SEe246e	LG73FYF	450	last seen at 07:22 04-10-2023
GAL	SEe247e	LG73FYH	450	West Croydon	16:37	56293	Brook Road
GAL	SEe248e	LG73FYJ	450	Lower Sydenham	16:36	49790	Harold Road/Chevening Road
GAL	SEe249e	LG73FYK		No record of this vehicle in service
GAL	SEe250e	LG73FYL	450	Lower Sydenham	16:36	52146	Fountain Drive
GAL	SEe251e	LG73FYM	450	West Croydon	16:35	76329	Sydenham High School
GAL	SEe252e	LG73FYN	450	West Croydon	16:37	58329	Dale Park Road
GAL	SEe253e	LG73FYO	450	Lower Sydenham	16:36	49916	Brook Road
GAL	SEe254e	LG73FYP	450	Lower Sydenham	16:37	57067	Charleville Circus
GAL	SEe255e	LG73FYR	450	Lower Sydenham	16:35	49916	Brook Road
GAL	SEe256e	LG73FYS	450	West Croydon	16:37	49674	Ellery Road
GAL	SEe257e	LG73FYT	450	West Croydon	16:36	53732	Westow Hill
GAL	SEe258e	LG73FYU	450	Lower Sydenham	16:37	76613	Kingswood Drive/College Road
GAL	SEe259e	LG73FYV	450	Lower Sydenham	16:37	56721	Bell Green/Sainsburys
GAL	SEe233e	LG73FYW		No record of this vehicle in service
GAL	SEe234e	LG73FYX		No record of this vehicle in service
GAL	SEe235e	LG73FYY		No record of this vehicle in service
GAL	SEe236e	LG73FYZ		No record of this vehicle in service
GM	2004b	LG73FYA	36	last seen at 09:50 04-10-2023
GM	2005b	LG73FYB	36	Bolton Interchange	16:36	Salford, Langworthy Rd

 

[MasterSpenny]

So I tried to list all the New Routemasters (LT's) by entering LTZ which is the first three digits of all the Boris Buses and it listed everyone of them, I could even see the two that have been withdrawn which are LT8 and LT174

I’m sure LT8 isn’t withdrawn. Isn’t it a Metroline bus nowadays?

 

[Goldfish62]

I’m sure LT8 isn’t withdrawn. Isn’t it a Metroline bus nowadays?

According to Bustimes it's currently heading north on the 32 in the Cricklewood area.

 

[76020]

According to Bustimes it's currently heading north on the 32 in the Cricklewood area.

I have just checked and you are dead right, it did show vehicle withdrawn from AL, but as has been pointed out it is running for ML now, my apologizes for my error.

 

[AlbertBeale]

That's the whole point of it to reduce over bussing, demand in Central London is never going to return to pre pandemic levels.

Lots of locals wouldn't call the previous situation overbussing. Various links no longer exist without extra changes; if you're not very mobile, carrying shopping etc, and have to queue more times in the rain and squeeze onto a crowded bus more times, to make what was once a through journey with adequate provision for busy times, it feels like the current situation is underbussing.

 

[BJames]

The 329 might be moving to Wood Green
If so, to create space for the SL1?
I do not know how genuine this is though, hence the word ’might’

https://twitter.com/ediz1975/status/1700220613644730469?s=20

From conversation today - drivers are a little unsure of what's happening - the general consensus was that it seems pretty certain, indeed a date of 11 December for 329 moving has been floated, but it is seemingly quite unpopular amongst drivers apparently and some are still convinced (or trying to convince themselves) that it won't move over.

 

[Mikey C]

I would say that that time it has returned, I don't use buses in central London all that much but when I do quite a few of them are very overloaded and reliability then suffers

All the cycle schemes have reduced road capacity for buses in Central London, which doesn't exactly help...

 

[AlbertBeale]

All the cycle schemes have reduced road capacity for buses in Central London, which doesn't exactly help...

Though not as much as all the unnecessary cars in central London have reduced space for buses... At least the bikes on the roads are being used to move people - a lot of the space wasted on cars has just empty cars parked there for 90% of the time.

 

[Statto]

Though not as much as all the unnecessary cars in central London have reduced space for buses... At least the bikes on the roads are being used to move people - a lot of the space wasted on cars has just empty cars parked there for 90% of the time.

Some road schemes haven't helped either, like closing to traffic the Southern end of the Aldwych, that could have been kept open for busses.

 

[Notchapple]

From conversation today - drivers are a little unsure of what's happening - the general consensus was that it seems pretty certain, indeed a date of 11 December for 329 moving has been floated, but it is seemingly quite unpopular amongst drivers apparently and some are still convinced (or trying to convince themselves) that it won't move over.

Don't changes usually occur on a Saturday?

 

[Edsmith]

Lots of locals wouldn't call the previous situation overbussing. Various links no longer exist without extra changes; if you're not very mobile, carrying shopping etc, and have to queue more times in the rain and squeeze onto a crowded bus more times, to make what was once a through journey with adequate provision for busy times, it feels like the current situation is underbussing.

What links will no longer exist? The 1 covers exactly the same route as the 168 from Bricklayers Arms roundabout to Hampstead Heath. The latest stats show usage in Central London still well down on pre pandemic levels.

Don't changes usually occur on a Saturday?

Normally but presumably a route could move garage any day of the week?

 

[Busaholic]

Lots of locals wouldn't call the previous situation overbussing. Various links no longer exist without extra changes; if you're not very mobile, carrying shopping etc, and have to queue more times in the rain and squeeze onto a crowded bus more times, to make what was once a through journey with adequate provision for busy times, it feels like the current situation is underbussing.

Absolutely, 'overbussing' is a concept devised by those wishing to justify withdrawal of finances from existing bus services, often based on ignorance rather than knowledge. It is ludicrous that you can't travel between Waterloo and Kings Cross stations directly by bus , for instance. On another thread, various people who live in the area defend the current level of bus services between St Albans and Hatfield because they are so well used, whereas planners and/or some detractors on this forum want to divert resources to link places currently unlinked because there is so little demand, it having been tried and failed in the past in some instances.

Normally but presumably a route could move garage any day of the week?

They never do, other than on a Saturday.

 

[MasterSpenny]

Absolutely, 'overbussing' is a concept devised by those wishing to justify withdrawal of finances from existing bus services, often based on ignorance rather than knowledge. It is ludicrous that you can't travel between Waterloo and Kings Cross stations directly by bus , for instance. On another thread, various people who live in the area defend the current level of bus services between St Albans and Hatfield because they are so well used, whereas planners and/or some detractors on this forum want to divert resources to link places currently unlinked because there is so little demand, it having been tried and failed in the past in some instances.


They never do, other than on a Saturday.

Then wouldn’t the 329 transfer (if it does happen) be on the 9th December (that day is a Saturday according to my calendar app, as below it states its on the 11th which also from the calendar is a Monday)

From conversation today - drivers are a little unsure of what's happening - the general consensus was that it seems pretty certain, indeed a date of 11 December for 329 moving has been floated, but it is seemingly quite unpopular amongst drivers apparently and some are still convinced (or trying to convince themselves) that it won't move over.

 

[BJames]

Possibly - was just repeating information from drivers which has been floated at the depot. No 100% confirmation on the movement date so hopefully more information soon.

 

[Busaholic]

Possibly - was just repeating information from drivers which has been floated at the depot. No 100% confirmation on the movement date so hopefully more information soon.

Sometimes, particularly in this part of North London in recent years, a part allocation on a route can get transferred, and this often relates to the Monday to Friday element only. In such cases, the actual move would take place on a Monday but the official date of the change will be the previous Saturday. It's always Saturdays, used to be Wednesdays up to about sixty years ago! Two of Wood Green, Palmers Green, Tottenham, Edmonton, Stamford Hill and Enfield garages were usually involved.

 

[MasterSpenny]

BYD Enviro 200 EV SEe24 has returned to service on route 444 following route 507/521 withdrawal earlier this year (from physical observation)

London Vehicle Finder

Search current and historic bus routes and locations in London, Reading, Edinburgh. Created to help photographers track down ellusive vehicles.

lvf.io

GoAhead London - Route 444​

Towards - Chingford Station​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
SEe24	LJ66CGG	Chingford Station	19:43	48321	Empire Parade
SEe33	LJ66CHD	Chingford Station	20:20	47543	Chingford Mount
SEe61	LJ67DKD	Chingford Station	20:26	47094	Turnpike Lane Bus Station
SEe62	LJ67DKE	Chingford Station	20:19	59047	White Hart Lane
SEe158e	LB71ECX	Chingford Station	20:19	72711	York Road

Towards - Turnpike Lane Station​

Fleet	Reg	Destination	Due	Stop Id	Stop Name
SEe32	LJ66CHC	Turnpike Lane Station	20:19	74923	Bull Lane/North Middlesex Hospital
SEe120	LF20XNC	Turnpike Lane Station	20:20	51026	Montagu Road

Vehicles that have also been on the route during the day :-​

Fleet	Reg	Used From	Used Until	Line
SEe31	LJ66CGZ	05:15	17:20
SEe34	LJ66CHF	05:45	18:30
SEe35	LJ66CHG	07:00	19:10
SEe36	LJ66CHH	04:15	19:20
SEe63	LJ67DKF	06:30	18:30
SEe64	LJ67DKK	08:00	19:30
SEe122	LF20XNE	00:00	00:30
SEe123	LF70YWA	00:00	00:30
SEe125	LF70YWC	00:00	00:45
SEe137e	LF70YWR	14:10	19:20
SEe140	LF70YWU	07:00	11:50
SEe156e	LB71ECV	00:00	01:00

 

[AlbertBeale]

Lots of locals wouldn't call the previous situation overbussing. Various links no longer exist without extra changes; if you're not very mobile, carrying shopping etc, and have to queue more times in the rain and squeeze onto a crowded bus more times, to make what was once a through journey with adequate provision for busy times, it feels like the current situation is underbussing.

What links will no longer exist? The 1 covers exactly the same route as the 168 from Bricklayers Arms roundabout to Hampstead Heath. The latest stats show usage in Central London still well down on pre pandemic levels.

I was referring to the loss of links, and also the loss of capacity, in the Bloomsbury area and nearby as a result of the various cuts and changes in the last few years - which have made travel slower and harder. That is, I was - obviously, I thought - referring to overall trends. This specific change lowers capacity in the area I'm talking about.

 

[Edsmith]

I was referring to the loss of links, and also the loss of capacity, in the Bloomsbury area and nearby as a result of the various cuts and changes in the last few years - which have made travel slower and harder. That is, I was - obviously, I thought - referring to overall trends. This specific change lowers capacity in the area I'm talking about.

At the risk of repeating myself, no significant links have been lost as a result of the 1 replacing the 168 and with the decline in bus usage in Central London what else do you expect to happen?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I saw a 73-plate electric bus between Lewisham and Catford today and wondered if it was on test. No idea what route/make. Presume it was returning to Catford garage (?) unless it had come from New Cross (NX)

 

[Edsmith]

I saw a 73-plate electric bus between Lewisham and Catford today and wondered if it was on test. No idea what route/make. Presume it was returning to Catford garage (?) unless it had come from New Cross (NX)

Just a guess but possibly one of the new buses due for the 199?

 

[MasterSpenny]

Volvo BZL VMS2821 on delivery. Plate LF73DWA.
Isn’t this a bus ordered for the 187 new contract?

https://x.com/DPS30673/status/1710267817239417147?s=20

Ooohhhhh

 

[Edvid]

Yes, it's nominally the last number of that route's Volvo BZL batch.

Buses on order are listed in the first two posts of this Tangytango Proboards thread.

 

[Busoccultation]

Volvo BZL VMS2821 on delivery. Plate LF73DWA.
Isn’t this a bus ordered for the 187 new contract?

https://x.com/DPS30673/status/1710267817239417147?s=20

Yes that will be for the 187 & 487 routes at Willesden Junction garage.

 

[AlbertBeale]

At the risk of repeating myself, no significant links have been lost as a result of the 1 replacing the 168 and with the decline in bus usage in Central London what else do you expect to happen?

At the risk of repeating myself, I didn't say that that latest change had itself broken links (in that case it "only" reduced capacity). The point is that the accumulation of cuts and changes in the area in the last few years has, overall, broken links and made journeys slower and more difficult. There are times when the local capacity is overloaded and difficult or impossible for vulnerable people to use. What I expect to happen, since you ask, is to have a sufficiently well funded public transport system for everyone to be able to travel easily. If you just naively add up total numbers over a whole day, you can end up with absurd results in extremis like only needing one bus trip per day between a given village and a nearby town - the capacity sums work out, but people can only go to town and can't get back again.

 

[Edsmith]

At the risk of repeating myself, I didn't say that that latest change had itself broken links (in that case it "only" reduced capacity). The point is that the accumulation of cuts and changes in the area in the last few years has, overall, broken links and made journeys slower and more difficult. There are times when the local capacity is overloaded and difficult or impossible for vulnerable people to use. What I expect to happen, since you ask, is to have a sufficiently well funded public transport system for everyone to be able to travel easily. If you just naively add up total numbers over a whole day, you can end up with absurd results in extremis like only needing one bus trip per day between a given village and a nearby town - the capacity sums work out, but people can only go to town and can't get back again.

Whichever way you look at it, falling demand is going to mean cuts in services, surely that is obvious?