London Midland 110mph running from Monday 10th December

[DXMachina]

It will be interesting to see if any other TOCs take the cue and seek to recertify and re-path their stock for higher speeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the draft timetable here http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/project-110-timetable.pdf
the current nn46 Euston-Crewe/Birmingham via Northampton is replaced by two 110mph trains:

1. nn46 to Crewe (MKC, RUG via Weedon, TV stations to Stafford then Crewe via Stoke.
Pathing is 10min slower than now north of Rugby

2. nn49 to Birmingham (WFJ, MKC, NMP [14min dwell] and then picks up current path to BHM).
3min faster to NMP, otherwise the same as now.

Thus Watford does not lose a service.
The press release does not make clear if both new trains run from December.

Southbound the TV train runs via Northampton but does not stop.
Times from Crewe are the same, same long dwell at Stafford, 2min slower to Rugby.
It appears to overtake the Birmingham train durings its dwell at NMP.

It looks as though all the gain is south of Rugby, and for TV passengers.
Of course, a new timetable may have been agreed with NR/ORR.
Anybody know any different?

 

[All Line Rover]

I am under the impression that that draft timetable may have changed. Unfortunately we won't know for sure for some months.

 

[Dreadnought]

In the draft timetable here http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/project-110-timetable.pdf
the current nn46 Euston-Crewe/Birmingham via Northampton is replaced by two 110mph trains:

1. nn46 to Crewe (MKC, RUG via Weedon, TV stations to Stafford then Crewe via Stoke.
Pathing is 10min slower than now north of Rugby

2. nn49 to Birmingham (WFJ, MKC, NMP [14min dwell] and then picks up current path to BHM).
3min faster to NMP, otherwise the same as now.

Thus Watford does not lose a service.
The press release does not make clear if both new trains run from December.

Watford may not lose a service but does lose a route as it no longer has the direct LM one serving the Trent Valley line.

 

[bILLOO]

Northampton is going to revert back to pre-2004; with just destinations to London and Birmingham. A big step back, IMHO.

 

[David10]

Northampton is going to revert back to pre-2004; with just destinations to London and Birmingham. A big step back, IMHO.

With a 5 minute connection on the down and 13 on the up at Rugby still good connections and a much quicker journey for the vast majority.

 

[MK Tom]

Northampton is going to revert back to pre-2004; with just destinations to London and Birmingham. A big step back, IMHO.

True - it's the old needs of the few thing. Stone, Stafford, Rugeley, Lichfield, Tamworth, Atherstone, Nuneaton, Rugby and Milton Keynes all make huge gains. Population of around 650,000 there as a rough guess. In return around 270,000 in Northampton and Watford loose out. Northampton still does have five direct TV trains after this though.

What'd be really good for Northampton was if an hourly Virgin service served it from Manchester or Liverpool. I did a thread on this a few months back. Another idea would be to have a faster Birmingham service from NMP that continued on to Wolverhampton. As it stands the only destinations that NMP has other than stops to London and Birmingham are Walsall and the TV. Milton Keynes is about 20,000 people bigger now and has double the London service and services to Manchester, Chester and Croydon (and a few a day to North Wales, Liverpool, Wolverhampton and Scotland).

 

[MCR247]

Yes MK has more services, but it is a lot more conveniently placed so it's like comparing apples and pears

 

[asylumxl]

Without wishing to sound rude, could we please stay on topic by not discussing infrastructure improvements on other lines. There are plenty of different threads for that sort of thing! Thanks.

Infrastructure? Rolling stock I'd have thought, considering the MML is already 110mph in various places and is being upgraded to 125mph in decent chunks.

It seems perfectly relevant to the topic, as cle was essentially saying he thinks other TOCs should follow LMs lead.

It does seem to me like the new timetable is essentially a win/lose situation, seeing as some lose while others gain.

 

[MKB]

In an ideal world you'd like to serve Nuneaton, Tamworth & Lichfield off the WCML, but atm it's just not feasible.

It may not be current policy, but it's certainly feasible and possible.

I should think the ICWC franchise will be quite content with this. It reduces the pressure on them for off-peak long distance services to stop.

The pressure for the reinstatement of Rugby, Nuneaton and Tamworth services is not just about fast trains to London: it's about Northbound services too, especially for passengers that connect through these interchange points. The new LM timetable does little to help with Northbound.

The one thing that LM helped on was trips to Northampton. That's now going to require a connection, halving the reliability of the trip, so I'll be back in the car for that one.

 

[cle]

Infrastructure? Rolling stock I'd have thought, considering the MML is already 110mph in various places and is being upgraded to 125mph in decent chunks.

It seems perfectly relevant to the topic, as cle was essentially saying he thinks other TOCs should follow LMs lead.

It does seem to me like the new timetable is essentially a win/lose situation, seeing as some lose while others gain.

Yep exactly. I was thinking about lines with 110-125mph running for intercity trains at present, which could possibly have their outer suburban 100mph trains run a little faster.

- MML is 110 but being upgraded further - and fast lines are used by Thameslink up to St Albans at least.

- ECML is 125 on the fasts, so the Cambridge Cruisers and faster Peterborough/Cambridge services might be able to utilise.

Both of these will in future have the same units. Which will have better acceleration than the intercity ones. Would be great if they could do 110 also.

It expands the scope of the original topic, but is completely relevant. Whereas All Line Rover's post contributed nothing whatsoever.

 

[jaigee]

The pressure for the reinstatement of Rugby, Nuneaton and Tamworth services is not just about fast trains to London: it's about Northbound services too, especially for passengers that connect through these interchange points. The new LM timetable does little to help with Northbound.

Quite correct, the whole world seems obsessed with travelling to and from London. Some of us travel northwards from the TV stations and that service is abysmal, and looks to remain so.

 

[radamfi]

The one thing that LM helped on was trips to Northampton. That's now going to require a connection, halving the reliability of the trip, so I'll be back in the car for that one.

That is the British way of thinking. In the Netherlands or Switzerland, whether a connection is required or not is irrelevant. There's no reason why there can't be a reliable connection from Northampton to Nuneaton and beyond at Rugby. There would be in the Netherlands or Switzerland.

 

[The Planner]

Paths that are sat in Dec 12 avoid Northampton both ways. xx.02 off Crewe with a xy.49 arrival at Euston. xx.46 off Euston with a xy.24 arrival at Crewe.

 

[Batman]

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, but in the context of this discussion I thought I'd check; Do 350's have tilting capabilities?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Paths that are sat in Dec 12 avoid Northampton both ways. xx.02 off Crewe with a xy.49 arrival at Euston. xx.46 off Euston with a xy.24 arrival at Crewe.

We should disregard the draft timetable on the ORR site then.
That's 14min faster northbound and 29min faster southbound.

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought I'd check; Do 350's have tilting capabilities?

No they neither have the bogies, body shell or TMS for tilting.

 

[bILLOO]

Slightly off topic and probably answered elsewhere, but why wasn't the Northampton loop upgraded to allow 110mph (at least) during the WCML upgrades?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Slightly off topic and probably answered elsewhere, but why wasn't the Northampton loop upgraded to allow 110mph (at least) during the WCML upgrades?

The money ran out. Actually I'm not sure if there ever was a scheme for the loop north of Northampton. It's 100 up to MP63.
The slow in the Trent Valley (other than the new bit) is also still 75mph.
In order to call at Atherstone, LM have to use the slow, usually from Attleborough (MP95).

 

[rail-britain]

Thats published news item, do you want the original press release?
I am also currently awaiting a confirmation of some other details, specific to the rolling stock; the press officer doesn't know the details

At last, the remainder of the Press Release (not on the news item) and confirmation :

Notes to editors:
Improved journey times to/from London from 10 December 2012:
Station journey time reduction to London journey time reduction from London
Rugeley 31minutes 18mins
Lichfield Trent Valley 31mins 20mins
Tamworth 31mins 20mins
Atherstone 31mins 22mins
Nuneaton 32mins 24mins

The train in question is the 350/1

 

[All Line Rover]

I do hope they time the Liverpool to Birmingham service to connect well into the sped up Crewe to London via Stoke service at Stafford. I'm sure they will - they seem to get quite a few customers from Liverpool who change at Stafford.

 

[The Planner]

Not aware of them tweaking those, but Ive not looked at them for a while.

 

[Pumbaa]

No the Brum - Liverpool remains unchanged. The connection should remain in both directions, if a little longer.

 

[All Line Rover]

No the Brum - Liverpool remains unchanged. The connection should remain in both directions, if a little longer.

That's a pity.

 

[MKB]

It surely can't be true that the BHM-LIV services remain unchanged? That would beggar belief.

NUN-LIV used to be 80-odd minutes pre-VHF.

Post-VHF, we have

NUN d xx17
STA a xy53

STA d xx09
LIV d xy10

Total journey time 113 minutes.

Now, we're being promised:

NUN d xx55
STA a xy39

STA d xx09
LIV d xy10

Total journey time 135 minutes!!!

This is surely a joke?

[Other STA-LIV trains are xx23-xy15 (VT) and xx35-xy43 (LM), so they are no use.]

 

[northernrail2009]

In an ideal world you'd like to serve Nuneaton, Tamworth & Lichfield off the WCML, but atm it's just not feasible.

However, can anyone work out the potential impact of LM's higher speeds for a potential service all the way through to Manchester? I.e. 2tph up the TV, one going to Crewe via Stoke, the other continuing to Piccadilly?

So something like: Watford Junc, Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV, Stafford, Stoke on Trent, Kidsgrove, Congleton, Macclesfield, Poynton, Cheadle Hulme, Stockport, Piccadilly

Am I reading it right that LM will run to Manchester?

If so when does this start?

 

[David10]

Am I reading it right that LM will run to Manchester?

No they won't. LM did want to extend the London-Crewe service to Liverpool and divert the 2nd hourly Birmingham-Liverpool to Preston but this was disallowed by the ORR.

 

[The Planner]

It surely can't be true that the BHM-LIV services remain unchanged? That would beggar belief.

They are where they are, Im not sure where you would expect LM to move them to anyway as it would completely balls up the New St - Wolves corridor.

 

[cle]

No they won't. LM did want to extend the London-Crewe service to Liverpool and divert the 2nd hourly Birmingham-Liverpool to Preston but this was disallowed by the ORR.

But I think in theory they're ok with it, but it'll need to wait until the Dec 2013 timetable, which is a big shake up on the West Coast - I think this may be when Euston-Glasgows become first stop Preston as standard.

 

[DiscoStu]

Slightly off topic and probably answered elsewhere, but why wasn't the Northampton loop upgraded to allow 110mph (at least) during the WCML upgrades?

I was always under the impression that until the sharp curve into the south end of Northampton station was straightened out, no high speed trains will run via Northampton, which would make any 110mph upgrades pointless.

I've always yearned for Virgin services to stop at Northampton, offering non-stop 45 min services into Euston ... we currently only have one per day at 06:43.

I'll be amazed if this happens in my life time :cry: