London Midland cancellations

[setdown]

Hi all,

I've been using London Midland services for years between Birmingham and Liverpool, and when travelling on their weekday services I don't have any kind of problem (and certainly appreciate the very cheap advance fares ).

However it seems that on Friday evenings and Saturdays it appears to be common for trains to be cancelled (or cut short at Crewe) due to "a member of train crew being unavailable". Indeed last weekend, yesterday and today there are quite a few service alterations on the journeycheck page for this reason.

Is there any reason why this appears to happen more often at these times? Is it a similar situation to what's happening with Southern right now? Like I said, during the week I can't complain so as an ignorant user it'd just be interesting to know!

 

[All Line Rover]

Yesterday (Friday) evening, London Midland curtailed the 17:46 to Crewe at Rugby due to a "staff shortage". Virgin Trains accommodated passengers on the 17:57 to Lancaster (Lichfield and Tamworth), 18:07 to Liverpool (Stafford and Crewe - also Stoke by changing at Stafford) and 18:10 to Wrexham (Nuneaton), which I thought was generous, particularly for first class passengers.

Does London Midland compensate Virgin Trains in this situation? If it does, does this not significantly outweigh the cost of providing sufficient members of staff?

 

[sd0733]

Theres quite a few off sick at the moment, also Fri nights/Sat liverpools are awful so people put in annual leave days etc on those turns and they end up uncovered. Not sure what happened with the 17:46 last night as the guard on that also works a new street and back and the 15:02 crewe to MKC all of which ran. Also, there is a bit of a disagreement over something over the last few days on the guards side which I won't go into any further but is leading to a reluctance to do any rest day work at present.

 

[Carlisle]

Theres quite a few off sick at the moment, also Fri nights/Sat liverpools are awful so people put in annual leave days etc on those turns and they end up uncovered. Not sure what happened with the 17:46 last night as the guard on that also works a new street and back and the 15:02 crewe to MKC all of which ran. Also, there is a bit of a disagreement over something over the last few days on the guards side which I won't go into any further but is leading to a reluctance to do any rest day work at present.

Proves there's no magic bullet really for good management,clearly cancellations,disputes,shortages and excessive sickness can all occur just as easily on a completely non DOO TOC as one trying to introduce it

 

[6Gman]

Proves there's no magic bullet really for good management,clearly cancellations,disputes,shortages and excessive sickness can all occur just as easily on a completely non DOO TOC as one trying to introduce it

Just a thought but how often do senior management appear on the weekend late Liverpool turns?

 

[sd0733]

Just a thought but how often do senior management appear on the weekend late Liverpool turns?

A couple of years ago to be fair they did come up with us quite a bit, they saw how bad it was, got some g4s security in, and all was well. Then the reports of anti-social behaviour went down as g4s went through and we could go with them 'mob-handed' to keep an eye on things. As the reports went down so did the g4s contract as clearly they are no longer needed :roll: and we've now come full circle to the point where we are basically at the same stage we were 3 years ago with it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Proves there's no magic bullet really for good management,clearly cancellations,disputes,shortages and excessive sickness can all occur just as easily on a completely non DOO TOC as one trying to introduce it

Yes although to be fair the same issues are arising (obviously on a far smaller scale at present than on Southern they aren't even comparable) of crushing staff morale, creating divisions between grades with what goes on a lot recently and other issues like lack of route knowledge and retention causes almost all these problems.

 

[Mugby]

The London Midland saga has been dragging on for years now. I remember 2-3 years ago when cancellations in the Birmingham area had reached unacceptable levels, local business leaders were calling for them to be stripped of the franchise but they promised to implement improvement measures as quickly as possible - and here we are 2-3 years later!

 

[gray1404]

Am I right in saying that some of the guards who work a LM Euston to Crewe then work out the next LM to Liverpool (ex Birmingham). If so, that is a very tight amount of time allowed at Crewe and all it would take is a delay on the Trent Valley service and that would easily result in a member of train crew not being available and the Birmingham to Liverpool having to be turned back at Crewe.

(I saw the above being I've caught a LM EUS to Stafford. Then when I've boarded the Liverpool service at Stafford and there has been a change of guard at Crewe, its been the same guard as what I had on the first service).

That is actually good of Virgin to accommodate LM passengers. Normally, (99.9% of the time) you are told that if you hold a LM Only ticket then you are to wait until the next LM service an hour later.

Finally, can we please have some more insight of the reality of the Friday/Saturday late night Liverpool to Crewe services? What antisocial behaviour goes on and how bad is it? One wouldn't imagine those sleepy little places on that section of the WCML having such problems. lol Seriously though, I am curious as to how bad it really gets....

 

[sd0733]

With regards to the first question yes we have loads diagrams where we work
the xx:04 liverpool-crewe arrive at xx:47 and then work the xx:02 down the trent to milton keynes.

Not sure how the ticket acceptance works if I'm honest, but we often get emaiissaying we are taking vt, emt, xc, atw, chiltern etc tickets on various routes quite often. Itmay be a reciprocal arrangement or they may pay each other genuinely don't know.

On the Liverpools its basically anti-social behavior on a massive scale causing an intimidating for everyone passengers and staff. There are large groups of drunks who will fight, smoke, force doors, press pass coms, abuse fellow passengers and staff and even police if they are there. At the stations generally Runcorn and Winsford there will generallbe some form of fight on the platform between Runcorn/Crewe people, winsford/Runcorn or Crewe/Runcorn, generally (Hartford don't seem too bad). There are several couples also end up fighting after an arguement on the train who seem to want to ditch the other half at some random station and some of the lads think its good to go to the toilets, leave the door open and flash at the groups of girls. They are all drunk too and so mostly haven't a clue where they are who they are or where they are going. Btp generally seem to turn a blind eye now due to the amount of trouuble which means they get away with it and then it gets worse.

 

[M60lad]

I came across this yesterday while out round West Midlands, quite a number of cancellations from London Midland due to staff shortages, one in particular was 19:01 Birmingham-Liverpool service which a group of St John's Ambulance Youth Leaders and Cadets were due to be on back to Liverpool but instead they ended up on 18:57 Birmingham-Piccadilly XC service and then onto Liverpool from Manchester, question is, is via Manchester valid from Birmingham as a permitted route? The only reason they managed Manchester no question is there wasn't a ticket check from Birmingham-Manchester at all last night on 18:57 XC from Birmingham and I'm led to believe with XC this can happen and has happened on their services I've been on before.

 

[ivanhoe]

With regards to the first question yes we have loads diagrams where we work
the xx:04 liverpool-crewe arrive at xx:47 and then work the xx:02 down the trent to milton keynes.

Not sure how the ticket acceptance works if I'm honest, but we often get emaiissaying we are taking vt, emt, xc, atw, chiltern etc tickets on various routes quite often. Itmay be a reciprocal arrangement or they may pay each other genuinely don't know.

On the Liverpools its basically anti-social behavior on a massive scale causing an intimidating for everyone passengers and staff. There are large groups of drunks who will fight, smoke, force doors, press pass coms, abuse fellow passengers and staff and even police if they are there. At the stations generally Runcorn and Winsford there will generallbe some form of fight on the platform between Runcorn/Crewe people, winsford/Runcorn or Crewe/Runcorn, generally (Hartford don't seem too bad). There are several couples also end up fighting after an arguement on the train who seem to want to ditch the other half at some random station and some of the lads think its good to go to the toilets, leave the door open and flash at the groups of girls. They are all drunk too and so mostly haven't a clue where they are who they are or where they are going. Btp generally seem to turn a blind eye now due to the amount of trouuble which means they get away with it and then it gets worse.

It seems the behaviour of the.Cheshire Set is the key problem here . I thought you were all affluent and were fine pillars of society! Seriously though, this needs nipping in the bud or the actions of a few could seriously undermine the travel plans of the majority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I came across this yesterday while out round West Midlands, quite a number of cancellations from London Midland due to staff shortages, one in particular was 19:01 Birmingham-Liverpool service which a group of St John's Ambulance Youth Leaders and Cadets were due to be on back to Liverpool but instead they ended up on 18:57 Birmingham-Piccadilly XC service and then onto Liverpool from Manchester, question is, is via Manchester valid from Birmingham as a permitted route? The only reason they managed Manchester no question is there wasn't a ticket check from Birmingham-Manchester at all last night on 18:57 XC from Birmingham and I'm led to believe with XC this can happen and has happened on their services I've been on before.

Not permitted, but from experience staff tend to be quite lenient on youth group leaders/school parties. Slower than waiting for the next one though!


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[Camden]

The London Midland saga has been dragging on for years now. I remember 2-3 years ago when cancellations in the Birmingham area had reached unacceptable levels, local business leaders were calling for them to be stripped of the franchise but they promised to implement improvement measures as quickly as possible - and here we are 2-3 years later!

Yes, I remember the Sunday when all trains were cancelled! Can you imagine that happening in London?!

It seems the behaviour of the.Cheshire Set is the key problem here . I thought you were all affluent and were fine pillars of society! Seriously though, this needs nipping in the bud or the actions of a few could seriously undermine the travel plans of the majority.

I said this once before (suggesting a solution could be an "abuse it and lose it" approach warning to the towns in question to get their house in order), and ended up getting a PM telling me someone had complained. "Cheshire set" is a bit misleading, as Cheshire is a very varied place, and parts of mid-Cheshire suffers from various issues as badly as any inner city area. Another thing that perhaps needs to happen is for Liverpool to go ahead and implement minimum alcohol pricing. I expect if it was the most expensive place in then north to get a pint, then that might deter those from those towns who only go there for the drink, as well as cut down on how much is consumed.

As a rule, when I've used it, the Birmingham to Liverpool journey is one of the most relaxing and stress free routes I've been on. So for it to also be plagued by such extreme outbursts to the extent of needing an alcohol ban in the evenings etc, suggests to me a rather unfair set of circumstances in which a minority is disrupting an important link between two of Britain's biggest cities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MUP, unless set impracticably high, won't affect pub prices.


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[6Gman]

It seems the behaviour of the.Cheshire Set is the key problem here . I thought you were all affluent and were fine pillars of society! Seriously though, this needs nipping in the bud or the actions of a few could seriously undermine the travel plans of the majority.

It's well past the "bud" stage sadly.

 

[Polarbear]

Unfortunately, the anti-social behaviour displayed on the Crewe - Liverpool route has been a problem for many years. There are also issues late evenings on the mid Cheshire line around weekends too & ive personally avoided using either late on Fridays or Saturday's.

It's not an uncommon problem across the UK, people from relatively rural areas going out on the town at the weekend, having too much booze & not being able to handle it. The difference in Cheshire is that many of them use the railway to get to and from the big cities.

As for a solution, what's needed is a change in the drinking culture in the UK, but I fear that's not going to happen in my lifetime.

 

[Agent_c]

, what's needed is a change in the drinking culture in the UK, but I fear that's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Maybe I'm just getting older, but I'm beginning to think the Temperance movement had a good point about closing the "saloons".

 

[craigybagel]

It seems the behaviour of the.Cheshire Set is the key problem here . I thought you were all affluent and were fine pillars of society! Seriously though, this needs nipping in the bud or the actions of a few could seriously undermine the travel plans of the majority.

Crewe and Winsford are the two exceptions to the rule where Cheshire is concerned

 

[gray1404]

With regards to the first question yes we have loads diagrams where we work
the xx:04 liverpool-crewe arrive at xx:47 and then work the xx:02 down the trent to milton keynes.

Not sure how the ticket acceptance works if I'm honest, but we often get emaiissaying we are taking vt, emt, xc, atw, chiltern etc tickets on various routes quite often. Itmay be a reciprocal arrangement or they may pay each other genuinely don't know.

Does it work the other way round too. i.e. work a Trent Valley service back up North to Crewe; then a tight connection to work a LM service onto Liverpool?

Regarding ticket acceptance, I have noticed that it is rare to be given information about ticket acceptance by the VT platform staff at Stafford (bearing in mind my usual journey is EUS/MKC to LIV changing at STA with LM) and I have been left waiting for the next LM service to LIV having arriving late during disruption - and let Virgin services go. I might start asking the guard on the LM EUS-Crewe service if they've had any emails about ticket acceptance before I get off at Stafford.

I really am sorry to hear of the problems in the evenings. I have traveled on the last LIV-BHM (direct) Friday nights, which of course is before the troublesome Crewe turn backs, but when that was starting to get "loud" out of Liverpool - but it used to clear out totally by Crewe.

 

[Camden]

I really am sorry to hear of the problems in the evenings. I have traveled on the last LIV-BHM (direct) Friday nights, which of course is before the troublesome Crewe turn backs, but when that was starting to get "loud" out of Liverpool - but it used to clear out totally by Crewe.

Therein I think shows a big problem, as the train certainly shouldn't clear out at Crewe but continue on its way with people on it. So I wonder if people are being put off from utilising it. I personally wouldn't use this line southbound in the evenings, despite being more than happy to use at any other time. Definitely an issue that should be dealt with, in my view.

 

[6Gman]

Crewe and Winsford are the two exceptions to the rule where Cheshire is concerned

Oi! Crewe's alright.


Seriously, every few weeks there seems to be an appeal in the local paper about an on-train incident and it's always a Liverpool - Birmingham service.

 

[LowLevel]

Friday and Saturday night trains are a nightmare. If I get a begging phone call to work some of our finest I'll decline even for a pot of gold. Why on earth would I want to give up my rare social evenings with my mates at times when they're off too (generally well behaved) to carry around an extremely vocal minority of total idiots? Cancel the lot for me. Ours have come very close to being 'blacked' by the union before following a series of staff assaults (everything from verbal abuse to people being punched to being pushed on to the track).

Needs the staff to put their foot down and declare enough is enough, and if it looks a bit lively drop anchor and refuse to leave Liverpool.

Local police are far more effective than BTP in these situations as they just turn up mob handed and throw them in the back of a van, which BTP don't have the numbers to do.

I've found parking my train at a station blocking an important single line section and refusing to budge is a grand way of getting help motivated.

 

[sd0733]

Does it work the other way round too. i.e. work a Trent Valley service back up North to Crewe; then a tight connection to work a LM service onto Liverpool.

Wierdly in general no, the only job i can think of with a liverpool following a trent is the dreaded 818 turn on a Saturday where you work the 20:24 arrival then the 20:57 upto Liverpool. not particularly tight though.

 

[craigybagel]

Oi! Crewe's alright.

I know mate, I both love and indeed live in Crewe. But you've got to admit it's not your typical Cheshire town . Much nicer than winsford though

Regarding ticket acceptance, I have noticed that it is rare to be given information about ticket acceptance by the VT platform staff at Stafford (bearing in mind my usual journey is EUS/MKC to LIV changing at STA with LM) and I have been left waiting for the next LM service to LIV having arriving late during disruption - and let Virgin services go. I might start asking the guard on the LM EUS-Crewe service if they've had any emails about ticket acceptance before I get off at Stafford.

Ticket acceptance is agreed at control level, and the info is then passed down to station and onboard staff. Stafford is one of the best organised stations with hard working proactive staff you'll find anywhere on the network, but if control don't tell them what's going on they can't advise you to travel on an invalid train.

 

[trainmania100]

It must be the green livery unlucky
I'd say the same will happen to them and freightliner as it did with southern. Better get that livery changed

 

[DarloRich]

Hi all,

I've been using London Midland services for years between Birmingham and Liverpool, and when travelling on their weekday services I don't have any kind of problem (and certainly appreciate the very cheap advance fares ).

However it seems that on Friday evenings and Saturdays it appears to be common for trains to be cancelled (or cut short at Crewe) due to "a member of train crew being unavailable". Indeed last weekend, yesterday and today there are quite a few service alterations on the journeycheck page for this reason.

Is there any reason why this appears to happen more often at these times? Is it a similar situation to what's happening with Southern right now? Like I said, during the week I can't complain so as an ignorant user it'd just be interesting to know!

May I ask a question? Have you ever had to go home from work or school with some ailment? I know I have. Why should train conductors be any different?

Although the "member of train crew being unavailable" covers a multitude of sins from illness to guard stuck at X due to broken down Y via taxi didn't turn up in time to collect them and guard in hospital after being attacked.

 

[gray1404]

Therein I think shows a big problem, as the train certainly shouldn't clear out at Crewe but continue on its way with people on it. So I wonder if people are being put off from utilising it. I personally wouldn't use this line southbound in the evenings, despite being more than happy to use at any other time. Definitely an issue that should be dealt with, in my view.

The first thin I would say here is that some of use have to travel at that time. I do not think a last direct service of 21.34 out of Liverpool going to Birmingham direct is partially late. One can still reasonably expect a regional service at that time of day. It would not be fair on those needing to travel South of Crewe to merely cancel the service. Sometimes, even with low passenger numbers, it is about providing a service, plus it is only an hourly service at that time of day.

I would also say that I totally refuse to let any yobs or antisocial people defer me from using the railway service. It just goes against certain principals of mine.

Friday and Saturday night trains are a nightmare. If I get a begging phone call to work some of our finest I'll decline even for a pot of gold. Why on earth would I want to give up my rare social evenings with my mates at times when they're off too (generally well behaved) to carry around an extremely vocal minority of total idiots? Cancel the lot for me. Ours have come very close to being 'blacked' by the union before following a series of staff assaults (everything from verbal abuse to people being punched to being pushed on to the track).

Needs the staff to put their foot down and declare enough is enough, and if it looks a bit lively drop anchor and refuse to leave Liverpool.

Local police are far more effective than BTP in these situations as they just turn up mob handed and throw them in the back of a van, which BTP don't have the numbers to do.

I've found parking my train at a station blocking an important single line section and refusing to budge is a grand way of getting help motivated.

I think it is fair to say that most people who work on the railway believe in providing a service. Therefore, a train crew member really would only block a single section of track on the WCML as a very last resort. It also bothers me that a member of staff would feel intimidated into not working a service. I guess it would be best (on the last couple of Crewe services) for the guard to stay in the rear cab and not walk through the train.

Ticket acceptance is agreed at control level, and the info is then passed down to station and onboard staff. Stafford is one of the best organised stations with hard working proactive staff you'll find anywhere on the network, but if control don't tell them what's going on they can't advise you to travel on an invalid train.

I too have noticed Stafford station staff are very helpful and proactive. So I think simply asking them about any ticket acceptance would be fine. The only problem I have come up against is when I have had a ticket to Liverpool South Parkway (which is never my final destination as I live in Formby on the Merseyrail network). I have been told that because I am not going to Liverpool Lime Street, even though there is ticket acceptance in place I need to wait for the LM service. In these circumstances I have simply boarded the VT service anyway. Thankfully there is an easement in place allowing a double back which I have had up my sleeve if needed.

 

[the sniper]

I guess it would be best (on the last couple of Crewe services) for the guard to stay in the rear cab and not walk through the train.

Not so easy if they keep setting off the passcoms, which used to be the norm on these late ones off Liverpool. Or when the brawling spills out onto the platforms at intermediate stations, or when people literally get bottled and there's blood everywhere, it gets a bit difficult to ignore them!

 

[sd0733]

Not so easy if they keep setting off the passcoms, which used to be the norm on these late ones off Liverpool. Or when the brawling spills out onto the platforms at intermediate stations, or when people literally get bottled and there's blood everywhere, it gets a bit difficult to ignore them!

All of those things happen at least weekly so yes staying in the backs not going to happen. In the past ive ended up with the riot police out who emptied the train totally to get them.under control and had a passenger punch the door glass on the 350 so hard it broke the glass. You have to feel sorry for the genuine passengers too as especially the 21:34 still has families fom day out and people from flights etc on them

 

[gray1404]

The scum in this situation are the passengers who cause the trouble. The Police should be hot on those trains and actually doing something about it. Not good.