London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[calc7]

straying ever so slightly - who remembers the Gate Gourmet strikes at heathrow, primarily affecting BA?
I understand these guys and the bunch of crettins at RG are one and the same. When they cocked up a flights onboard offering BA gave out food vouchers valid at certain outlets within the terminals. Would a tie up with SSP meaning vouchers could be used at the likes of BK, Pumpkin etc not be an idea for when theres no food left, no sheff, the crew leader has a hangover, the trolley has wheel flats, if its the 3rd Tuesday of the month or indeed any of the other reasons the PR Dept fail to fobb us off with?

They could even be valid at the pubs they opperate or maybe at Wetherspoons?
That way EC arnt seen to be handing out actual cash iether as streight payouts or in free travel as we all know this governments views on handing out money to those who need it. of cours when somebody with half a brain take7 over next winter then it will all be much simpler.

Should say Virgin get it, the onboard free FC Refreshments will instantly be done propperly.
if somebody like First take over my bet is the Sarnys et2 will stil be free with Traveling sheff on many trains and maybe even there much praised full restaurant on INV/ABD runs.
A continental player like SNCF wil I think do ok too

I like that idea. The only issue would be how the vouchers are accounted for, given they'd need to be able to be handed out at short notice on a train to a few dozen customers.

And to respond to your last paragraph, I would most prefer to see a Virgin-style First Class service on the ECML. Agreed that on the long routes a decent cooked meal would be a must.

 

[YorkshireRider]

My Dad went standard class to Leeds yesterday - he said that the coffee from the std class trolley has gone up 25p since he went to York last week and is now a different brand which he didn't care for. So it will be the coffee shop on Stevenage platform next time! (EC loses out again)

They have changed to it starbucks via. I would agree 25p takes the **** a bit, maybe 5p given how many they sell would have been about right however to say its worse is a bit bizarre. The nescafe crap was awful, this stuff is pretty good and about as good as instant is going get.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Not sure about First getting East Coast if you are thinking about service in First Class. Tried the First Class service on Great Western, tea and coffee comes in paper cups and you get a complimentary biscuit or nuts with it served at seat. However to get a travelling chef snack you had to walk to the buffet to fetch it yourself, whilst the first class hosts lounged about doing nothing!

At lunchtime there is nothing substantial on the travelling chef menu either, just ommeletes and sandwiches.

 

[jon0844]

EC treats its service as complimentary and 'subject to availability' so I'm sure there's no problem giving out vouchers - as they'll be marked 'To the value of £0.00'.

John Lewis recently gave me a voucher for 2 hot drinks and a cake, for having kept me waiting a while at the collection point. They had a stack of them, so I'm sure they could have staff giving them out to anyone (or more than one). I'm guessing they don't.

I presume the company has worked out that giving customers something that's worth about £10 in total, depending on what you order, is worth the cost to them - which is substantially less! They keep a customer, and possibly get more sales because I'm most likely going to use the voucher another day - so that brings me back to the shop!

EC could, and possibly should, give out a voucher for use at the shop on the train - valid for 30 days or something. Whatever the value to the customer is a lot less to EC.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Not sure about First getting East Coast if you are thinking about service in First Class. Tried the First Class service on Great Western, tea and coffee comes in paper cups and you get a complimentary biscuit or nuts with it served at seat. However to get a travelling chef snack you had to walk to the buffet to fetch it yourself, whilst the first class hosts lounged about doing nothing!

At lunchtime there is nothing substantial on the travelling chef menu either, just ommeletes and sandwiches.

Really, when i went to Cornwall with sum mates last year the staff were great and took our orders within about 10mins of leaving Paddington, thought it was a reasonable price too.

 

[krisk]

I'm just wondering at what point people will just accept EC will do whatever it thinks best. Free vouchers for Wetherspoons? Good luck with that.

Personally I can not see how they get it so wrong but what I do see here is that peoples expectations are too high, treating a drinks "service" like a free bar. You might want G&T, wine and beer all at once but what about other people travelling who then may not get their first choice as you take three drinks?

This is where complimentary offerings go wrong, complimentary does not equate to all inclusive.

It does not excuse EC getting the basics wrong but that can be forgiven in the eventually of say being the first train to leave after a fatality etc but when it seems to be week after week there is no excuse. The only way it will change is when people vote with their feet and their wallets but just remember if you no longer want that first class seat they will just sell it to someone for an advance fare instead.

 

[Bellwater]

Personally I can not see how they get it so wrong but what I do see here is that peoples expectations are too high, treating a drinks "service" like a free bar. You might want G&T, wine and beer all at once but what about other people travelling who then may not get their first choice as you take three drinks?

This is where complimentary offerings go wrong, complimentary does not equate to all inclusive.

Think the main complaint is someone gets on the 2330 KGX-LDS with their £25 Advance ticket and expects a 3 course meal.

 

[Aberdonian]

I have a lot of sympathy for KRISK's reasoning. The problem is that there is effectively no alternative to EC on the Aberdeen to Edinburgh route. The only real alternative is the services provided by First which only runs Sprinters which I dont find good on a run of two and a half hours. There is therefore a need to press EC to improve on these aspects of their service.

 

[Aberdonian]

I'm certainly not talking about unreasonable expectations. I experienced NO hot food on three successive journeys.

 

[krisk]

Steady on

I'm guessing these are subject to availability

I'm interested how much of it is down to EC, if there are ordering restrictions placed on the staff ie try and run the food out on later services or if there are just general cock ups from RG whereby deliveries go missing or are incomplete

Patience whilst they switch to the new way of operating should be expected but this is over a year now isn't it?

 

[calc7]

Steady on

I'm guessing these are subject to availability

I'm interested how much of it is down to EC, if there are ordering restrictions placed on the staff ie try and run the food out on later services or if there are just general cock ups from RG whereby deliveries go missing or are incomplete

Patience whilst they switch to the new way of operating should be expected but this is over a year now isn't it?

I think the current situation is what many of us believe it is the best we are going to get and have already made our decisions to travel in STD unless First is dirt cheap.

 

[ainsworth74]

Think the main complaint is someone gets on the 2330 KGX-LDS with their £25 Advance ticket and expects a 3 course meal.

Who on earth has said they've expected that?

Personally I can not see how they get it so wrong but what I do see here is that peoples expectations are too high, treating a drinks "service" like a free bar. You might want G&T, wine and beer all at once but what about other people travelling who then may not get their first choice as you take three drinks?

For me it's less what you can get in one go and more that the drinks don't come around frequently enough. I did Kings Cross to Darlington on Wednesday (a journey of two and a half hours) and I saw the drinks trolley twice so once an hour basically that's surely not reasonable. When I travelled on Virgin between Glasgow and Euston the trolley certainly came round more often than that.

Patience whilst they switch to the new way of operating should be expected but this is over a year now isn't it?

It will be a year in May and I think by now they really should have sorted this lot out 11 months is more than longer enough iron out any bugs in the system surely?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Think the main complaint is someone gets on the 2330 KGX-LDS with their £25 Advance ticket and expects a 3 course meal.

Who on earth has said they've expected that?

I think that post is simply a misreading of the thread by Bellwater.

We've repeated the context quite clearly, that long distance journeys which take place during one or more of the accepted 'meal-times' are when passengers expect a wholesome, adequate and enjoyable meal.
We've repeated quite clearly that it was the Company which decided that price would not be a factor - not the passenger. Many of us pay many times Bellwater's £25 and would like to eat. Many of us would be happy to pay a suppliment for a meal (and were happy to do so in the Restaurant Car).
I'm struggling to understand the significance of the Advance ticket (unless it was to emphasise the low cost of the £25 ticket).
I have no recollection of ever making any complaint about the EC catering service when it was paid-for, and I think I can safely say that I always paid more than £25 - and that was just for the catering (i.e. in addition to the ticket price).

It will be a year in May and I think by now they really should have sorted this lot out 11 months is more than longer enough iron out any bugs in the system surely?

Whatever erratic and sometimes predictably absent service we have now is indeed surely all that the Company intend to provide for us. (And as it is largely contracted to RG, then the Quality Assurance applied by RG is surely at a level which the 2 Companies have now agreed. When on-board crew open a cart of clean lay-up crockery and find used & soiled cups, then that will be at an acceptable service level. If its not, then I want to know why it takes so long after the commencement of a supply Contract to reach the agreed service level).

 

[142094]

It seems to be coffee and tea after every stop, whilst the cold drink trolley is after every major stop. So on an Edinburgh - London, it should be after EDB, NCL, YRK and possibly one more.

Depending on the stopping pattern, it could be after every stop for the faster services, or every other station on the stoppers.

I was on a breakfast and afternoon service the other day, and the apple and rhubarb juice along with orange is available on the breakfast service, but only orange juice in the afternoon. I asked if they'd run out but apparently it isn't served in the afternoon as it is too expensive.

 

[calc7]

I was on a breakfast and afternoon service the other day, and the apple and rhubarb juice along with orange is available on the breakfast service, but only orange juice in the afternoon. I asked if they'd run out but apparently it isn't served in the afternoon as it is too expensive.

That apple and rhubarb juice is delicious and retails in Waitrose for around £2.50, so I am not surprised it is absent from the all-day offer (ie it replaced by alcoholic offerings).

Funnily enough they have served it in the Kings Cross lounge.

 

[142094]

I agree, it is very nice and I prefer it to the orange juice. Got to remember though that EC will get everything at trade price or probably better if they are buying in vast quantities, so it can't be that expensive.

 

[calc7]

I agree, it is very nice and I prefer it to the orange juice. Got to remember though that EC will get everything at trade price or probably better if they are buying in vast quantities, so it can't be that expensive.

You must remember we are talking about a company here who told me I could have crisps or biscuits from the trolley.

 

[142094]

You must remember we are talking about a company here who told me I could have crisps or biscuits from the trolley.

Lol, you must be getting the wrong staff on yours - I've been on and went to use the toilet to come back and find a fresh can of beer on my table, without even asking!

 

[calc7]

Lol, you must be getting the wrong staff on yours - I've been on and went to use the toilet to come back and find a fresh can of beer on my table, without even asking!

Until that becomes the norm I shall be staying quite firmly rooted in STD whilst buying &connections tickets where possible to deprive them of revenue. Nothing like voting with your wallet.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . Got to remember though that EC will get everything at trade price or probably better if they are buying in vast quantities, so it can't be that expensive.

But are they?
I expect that the prices 'per portion' are surprisingly high, due to the several 'value-added' stages between supplier's warehouse and our on-board seat.
Most of these will be in procurement and delivery, stock management, refridgeration, then the preperation of each trains's carts as well as the cleaning and washing of crockery cutlery and linens, station access charges, train access charges, platform staff and equipment to load and unload, and staff costs (on-board, on leave, on breaks, all admin in Catering, HR and management) and pensions.

I think each crumb becomes very expensive with their chosen method of service delivery. While I won't defend their choice, it has made the notion of 'cost per unit' rather irrelevant. They've chosen to invest a pre-determined 'cost per train service' which applies almost irrespective of how much is consumed or how many passengers are on-board.

 

[Aberdonian]

Can anyone tell me, please, which Government Department is responsible for the Directly Operated service provided by ECML?
Presumably they have a responsibilty for and accountability for the quality service which ECML are contracted to deliver.
Alsothey are presumably covered by freedom of information legislation.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

DOR Ltd and its wholly owned subsiduary ECML Ltd., are indeed subject to FoI requests (as you will see from a search of www.whatdotheyknow.com - what may not be so apparent if you do, is that many requests have come from people who also post on this forum).

The Company is answerable to the Transport Minister at the DfT and are wholly owned by the Department, but operating as they do, at arms length (and its a long arm), then we would be wrong to assume that there is openness, transparency and effective scrutiny between the Department and industry bodies and their contracted suppliers and agents. In fact, there is confidentiality, obfuscation and deceipt within the industry at that level, not only are the Minister and Department are ill-advised, but DOR and other TOCs are also poorly served by their industry partners and operate under misapprehensions.

Depending on exactly why you ask, I suspect that there may be more effective routes to obtaining the information you require.

[for the avoidance of doubt, my words in this post have been well considered before posting.]

 

[Bellwater]

I think that post is simply a misreading of the thread by Bellwater.

We've repeated the context quite clearly, that long distance journeys which take place during one or more of the accepted 'meal-times' are when passengers expect a wholesome, adequate and enjoyable meal.
We've repeated quite clearly that it was the Company which decided that price would not be a factor - not the passenger. Many of us pay many times Bellwater's £25 and would like to eat. Many of us would be happy to pay a suppliment for a meal (and were happy to do so in the Restaurant Car).
I'm struggling to understand the significance of the Advance ticket (unless it was to emphasise the low cost of the £25 ticket).
I have no recollection of ever making any complaint about the EC catering service when it was paid-for, and I think I can safely say that I always paid more than £25 - and that was just for the catering (i.e. in addition to the ticket price).

Whatever erratic and sometimes predictably absent service we have now is indeed surely all that the Company intend to provide for us. (And as it is largely contracted to RG, then the Quality Assurance applied by RG is surely at a level which the 2 Companies have now agreed. When on-board crew open a cart of clean lay-up crockery and find used & soiled cups, then that will be at an acceptable service level. If its not, then I want to know why it takes so long after the commencement of a supply Contract to reach the agreed service level).

Dave, Í know you and others on here pay more than a token amount for First Class Travel and expect as such First Class Service.

Its those on Advances who complain who get me when there's not much difference in price.

 

[Butts]

Dave, Í know you and others on here pay more than a token amount for First Class Travel and expect as such First Class Service.

Its those on Advances who complain who get me when there's not much difference in price.

So are you suggesting that there should be a two tier service - one for "cheapo tickets" and one for the rest - if you look back about 1000 posts I'm sure I suggested a seperate carriage

If East Coast offer cheap fares then that is their decision , it should not lead to a drop in standards. (always assuming there are any)

The staff on duty seem to make a big difference as has been witnessed on many posts to this thread good and bad.

The biggest single factor is that even at it's best with full delivery the catering is no better than found in a supermaket cafe for what is supposed to be a premium product. The previous offer although not complimentary was far superior as has been borne out by many contributors.

 

[johnnychips]

I agree with Butts. I got a ridiculously cheap fare from Dundee to Donny
1st Class (about £50) and had lots of coffee and drinks offered all the way. The staff were fantastic and efficient. However, the meal was microwaved jacket potato and school-dinner curry. At the price I paid I was grateful for anything, but if I had paid a premium fare I would not be impressed - not least by the fact that 1st was packed out by low-paying plebs like myself.

 

[Bellwater]

Remember when GNER did "Standard Plus?" used that once, it was alright.

 

[jon0844]

The 'in-between' class on Eurostar works well, so why not a 'leisure first' or 'standard plus' service?

I'm not going to suggest how EC differentiates between them (possibly for another thread) but it's not a crazy idea.

 

[142094]

But are they?
I expect that the prices 'per portion' are surprisingly high, due to the several 'value-added' stages between supplier's warehouse and our on-board seat.
Most of these will be in procurement and delivery, stock management, refridgeration, then the preperation of each trains's carts as well as the cleaning and washing of crockery cutlery and linens, station access charges, train access charges, platform staff and equipment to load and unload, and staff costs (on-board, on leave, on breaks, all admin in Catering, HR and management) and pensions.

I think each crumb becomes very expensive with their chosen method of service delivery. While I won't defend their choice, it has made the notion of 'cost per unit' rather irrelevant. They've chosen to invest a pre-determined 'cost per train service' which applies almost irrespective of how much is consumed or how many passengers are on-board.

Depends which costs are attributed to the 'complimentary offer' I suppose. I'm also unsure on how their contract with Rail Gourmet works, it might be the case that RG bid the lowest price and got the contract. Some of the preparation areas will be used by other TOCs - main one I know is York where IIRC it is also used by TPE.

 

[Bridge189]

Remember when GNER did "Standard Plus?" used that once, it was alright.

Really? I remember it being just an STD coach with antimacassars on the seat with newspapers on the table. It was also the coach near to the cafe bar so the queue would often form through it from mainline STD. I believe however if you showed your STD* ticket at the bar they would give you a free tea and a shortbread.

 

[jon0844]

So a free paper, one cup of tea and a biscuit. Isn't that what you now get in FC?