London Overground 'Circle Line'

[gordonthemoron]

Tried it out at the weekend after Boris' opening fanfare and was seriously unimpressed for the following reasons:

1. Why us it so slow?
2. Why are the trains so poor & short?
3. Why is the frequency so poor?

anyone any ideas? Or is this just some politician talking rubbish as usual?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Tried it out at the weekend after Boris' opening fanfare and was seriously unimpressed for the following reasons:

1. Why us it so slow?
2. Why are the trains so poor & short?
3. Why is the frequency so poor?

anyone any ideas? Or is this just some politician talking rubbish as usual?

1) It is slow due to having stops every few minutes! Also because most of the lines run through busy parts of London where speed limits are lower I guess. It is a circular route and LOROL probably don't expect most of its passengers to travel the whole circle like you did

2) I guess that is a case of LOROL only having limited stock and that is always how they have run their trains, some of the stations also may not be long enough to accomodate longer trains.

3) I would argue that for a NR service the frequency is reasonable, most run every 10-15mins, remember you can't compare this to LUL!

 

[Michael.Y]

Tried it out at the weekend after Boris' opening fanfare and was seriously unimpressed for the following reasons:

1. Why us it so slow?
2. Why are the trains so poor & short?
3. Why is the frequency so poor?

anyone any ideas? Or is this just some politician talking rubbish as usual?

It's a commuter line for short hops. It's not designed to be used end-end. It'll be supplanted by Crossrail and the improved Thameslink anyway so it doesn't need to be anything more than it is.

Trains poor? They're brand new and designed for the purpose.

Frequency poor? Some places would kill for 16tph.

I think you're being a bit harsh and unfair. Do you work in the industry or are you just a spotter with false expectations?

 

[Manchester77]

poor and short?! You people in London are spoilt rotten. The entire southern region has had major investment into its fleet. You want to try living here in manchester. A bit city, big enough for a service of more than 1 toy on suburban trains yeah? But no if you miss that you have to wait for another hour or walk to the met. If you think 378s are poor come live travel on our 150 + 142 combo or a merseytravel 142

London overground is one of the best services I've travelled on. I know I've just said that you're spoilt but you're also lucky to be. You no have what 2 main orbital city routes, soon to be 2 cross city line (excluding LUL central) I do think that the services in London are world class, lets just get the rest of the UK like that

 

[asylumxl]

poor and short?! You people in London are spoilt rotten. The entire southern region has had major investment into its fleet. You want to try living here in manchester. A bit city, big enough for a service of more than 1 toy on suburban trains yeah? But no if you miss that you have to wait for another hour or walk to the met. If you think 378s are poor come live travel on our 150 + 142 combo or a merseytravel 142

I think the Metrolink is pretty good and by no means something I'd turn my nose up at. You also have 390s, 323s and various other non Pacer trains coming in to Picadilly.

 

[jopsuk]

2. "poor" is subjective- longitudinal seating is pretty common for "Metro" type stock. The trains are longer than were running previously on the NLL (which was three car 313s), longer than the LU A-Stock on the ELL (four cars, but shorter) and as long/longer than most SLL trains (which were 2-car 456s, pairs of them or single 455s in most cases). The "ELLX" South London service is limited in train length to what the East London Line can take- which will be 5 cars (the extra carriages are on order), using SDO at some stations. When extended to 120m they'll be longer than most Underground trains and just 7.5m shorter than a full Metropolitan Line S8 stock train- funny what the larger body and longer carriages can do to perception of length.

 

[NSE]

From an enthusiasts point of view, its become far more predictable and the trains, personally, boring, but from a general public point of view its a huge success. The frequencies on the NLL have to work around freight and a small portion of the district line, the WLL has to work around Clapham Junction and the Hourly Southern service, the ELL round the Southern services and the SLL the South Eastern and Southern services and the Watford DC with Bakerloo, therefore I'd argue the frequencies are very good. I've never had to wait more then 6/8 minutes for a train. I'd argue thats good, the trains are clean, can fit people on. More capacity than the old 313's. They can't fit more carriages on because some stations can't be expanded. Off the top of my head Finchley Road and Frognal, Hampstead Heath, Gospel Oak, Wapping, Rotherhithe and Kentish Town West are all going to prove a little tricky to extend.

If anything I'd argue LO has become a victim of its own success, but I don't think so. I commute on it regularly and as it (mostly) avoids zone 1, its normally cheaper. Happy Days.

 

[Manchester77]

I think the Metrolink is pretty good and by no means something I'd turn my nose up at. You also have 390s, 323s and various other non Pacer trains coming in to Picadilly.

Indeed but if you fall out of its catchment zone, which many suburbs do thinking of urmston in particular, you're stuck with not exactly what I'd call the best services.

Yes I understand that but 390s other than Stockport dont call at any other GM stations do they?

I do understand that there are worse places with worse trains (eg no EMUs) but the GM zone popped into mind cos it's my local place

 

[Oswyntail]

As I have written elsewhere, I spent a large chunk of a day last week trying this out, and utterly disagree with the OP. I was astonished by the high frequencies throughout (I had not seriously visited the line since the 80s). The stock is excellent and well fitted for its purpose. And, though I lament the total absence of 125mph stretches, the speed was more than acceptable. I would suggest that the OP be made to commute from Woodlesford to Horsforth at 8am for a month

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm a daily commuter on the ELLX (ex-South London Line), so I'll wade into this discussion..

[*]Why us it so slow?

Presumably due to slow line speeds in places and having to slot in between other services and freight. I know what you mean though - the slowest-feeling part I've experienced is Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Road which usually takes me 7 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes for what is a little over a mile!

[*]Why are the trains so poor & short?

I don't think that they are particularly short, given the stations they serve. They're built with one thing in mind: capacity. The greatest capacity is achieved by making people stand. I don't know about the NLL/WLL but on the ELL, the northbound trains going into Canada Water are totally wedged and they just wouldn't be able to fit all those people on with a conventional layout.

The side-effect is that on the edge of peak there are not enough seats, whereas on a conventional layout there would have been. Also, the layout doesn't feel as "cosy" as a conventionally-laid out train. The seats themselves however are amongst the most uncomfortable I've ever sat on - very low back with little support and virtually no padding. They are very similar to the Victoria LU seats (made at the same factory maybe?).

The trains accelerate very slowly out of stations, and it takes a very long time for the doors to be unlocked after entering any station. I'm sure this contributes to the feeling of a slow journey compared to a London Underground train which would brake and accelerate much sharper and have much quicker door unlocking.

I personally think the stock has some deficiencies, given that it was built specifically for the LO metro service, but I can see why the decisions were made the way they were.

[*]Why is the frequency so poor?

I don't think there really is demand for a more regular service. Also, I suspect at the pinchpoints, such as Surrey Quays on the ELL, the line is pretty much near or at capacity. On other parts of the network, there are other TOCs services to fit in too.


And of course a lot of it is Boris and politics...

 

[Starmill]

I'm a daily commuter on the ELLX (ex-South London Line), so I'll wade into this discussion..


Presumably due to slow line speeds in places and having to slot in between other services and freight. I know what you mean though - the slowest-feeling part I've experienced is Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Road which usually takes me 7 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes for what is a little over a mile!


I don't think that they are particularly short, given the stations they serve. They're built with one thing in mind: capacity. The greatest capacity is achieved by making people stand. I don't know about the NLL/WLL but on the ELL, the northbound trains going into Canada Water are totally wedged and they just wouldn't be able to fit all those people on with a conventional layout.

The side-effect is that on the edge of peak there are not enough seats, whereas on a conventional layout there would have been. Also, the layout doesn't feel as "cosy" as a conventionally-laid out train. The seats themselves however are amongst the most uncomfortable I've ever sat on - very low back with little support and virtually no padding. They are very similar to the Victoria LU seats (made at the same factory maybe?).

The trains accelerate very slowly out of stations, and it takes a very long time for the doors to be unlocked after entering any station. I'm sure this contributes to the feeling of a slow journey compared to a London Underground train which would brake and accelerate much sharper and have much quicker door unlocking.

I personally think the stock has some deficiencies, given that it was built specifically for the LO metro service, but I can see why the decisions were made the way they were.

As a visitor to the capital, I find 378s terminally disappointing. I don't know if passnegers like them, but as a "train tourist" I now try to avoid them and your views help to express why... but I'm still never quite sure why I don't like them.

In addition, I think the view is quite restricted? The windows are really difficult to see out of properly. And, they view down the train looks almost "rough" because of the massive indents for the doors.

 

[maniacmartin]

In addition, I think the view is quite restricted? The windows are really difficult to see out of properly.

The windows are quite large. However, if you are sitting down, you will have your back to the window, and someone will be sitting in front of the window on the opposite side obscuring the view. The joys of longitudinal seating.

And, they view down the train looks almost "rough" because of the massive indents for the doors.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

 

[LE Greys]

As a visitor to the capital, I find 378s terminally disappointing. I don't know if passnegers like them, but as a "train tourist" I now try to avoid them and your views help to express why... but I'm still never quite sure why I don't like them.

In addition, I think the view is quite restricted? The windows are really difficult to see out of properly. And, they view down the train looks almost "rough" because of the massive indents for the doors.

I did the same route in the days of rancid 313s with scratched glass that hadn't been refurbed since privatisation, and the 378s are a great relief in comparison. They're not as comfortable, but then track bashers weren't really considered when compared with locals going only a few stops. However, they seem cleaner and brighter, and the information system is better, they also run more frequently. I just wish we had them on the Moorgate Lines.

 

[Mintona]

Just as well the railway isn't run for enthusiasts really then.

 

[bicbasher]

Isn't the average trip on LO around 10-15 mins? So the 378's are providing what most passengers demand, which is the ability to move around quickly to the other interchanges, in my case travelling to Canada Water for the Jubilee.

 

[Clip]

Tried it out at the weekend after Boris' opening fanfare and was seriously unimpressed for the following reasons:

1. Why us it so slow?
2. Why are the trains so poor & short?
3. Why is the frequency so poor?

anyone any ideas? Or is this just some politician talking rubbish as usual?

Are you a politician then because this whole post is just baffling.

 

[NSE]

yeah 10/15 minutes sounds about right. I'm only ever on for about five/ten minutes tops

 

[Starmill]

Just as well the railway isn't run for enthusiasts really then.

If this was directed at me, I didn't say it was.

 

[Mintona]

If this was directed at me, I didn't say it was.

Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. I just feel the 378s are perfect for the job they do, and will be even more perfect when they have 5 coaches each.

 

[HSTEd]

Track upgrades could probably be useful though.
It would enable them [the Class 378s) to use the insane acceleration capacity built into them.

 

[Chris M]

Add another voice to the chorus of disagreement with the OP.
The Overground is all about moving very large numbers of people a short distance, and the trains are designed around this and are very good at what they do. Compare them to the 313s or even the 172s on the Goblin and you will see why they are the right stock for the job.
The route is a cobble together of nearly a dozen independently built railways that (other than Shoreditch High Street to Highbury & Islington) were never designed to operate as they do and most stretches have to work around other services too. The whole lot could do with being at least 6tph but there just aren't the paths available AIUI.
Longer trains are coming, but will take time because the infrastructure needs to be adjusted to cope. In many cases this is a result of rationalisation/modernisation in the 1960s-80s.

 

[notadriver]

I'm a daily commuter on the ELLX (ex-South London Line), so I'll wade into this discussion..


The trains accelerate very slowly out of stations, and it takes a very long time for the doors to be unlocked after entering any station. I'm sure this contributes to the feeling of a slow journey compared to a London Underground train which would brake and accelerate much sharper and have much quicker door unlocking.

I don't think its fair to compare the acceleration of a main line train to a tube train. Perhaps a comparison with the sub surface line S stock would be more appropriate and I'm sure that a properly driven 378 would out easily out accelerate an S stock which seems to take 30 seconds to reach 30 mph!

I don't think its fair to compare the acceleration of a main line train to a tube train. Perhaps a comparison with the sub surface line S stock would be more appropriate and I'm sure that a properly driven 378 would out easily out accelerate an S stock which seems to take 30 seconds to reach 30 mph!

 

[swt_passenger]

Track upgrades could probably be useful though.
It would enable them [the Class 378s) to use the insane acceleration capacity built into them.

How are you going to provide the same 'insane acceleration capacity' to the freight locos they'd otherwise catch up with?

Sending the freight 'elsewhere' isn't really a suitable answer...

 

[jopsuk]

How are you going to provide the same 'insane acceleration capacity' to the freight locos they'd otherwise catch up with?

Sending the freight 'elsewhere' isn't really a suitable answer...

To a certain extent, it is- that's exactly what Ipswich-Ely-Peterborough (and beyond) freight upgrade, which I'm sure I've seen claims of taking up to 100 extra freight train movements each day, is about. Yes, some of the NLL freight is unavoidably on that route- but much of it isn't.

 

[swt_passenger]

To a certain extent, it is- that's exactly what Ipswich-Ely-Peterborough (and beyond) freight upgrade, which I'm sure I've seen claims of taking up to 100 extra freight train movements each day, is about. Yes, some of the NLL freight is unavoidably on that route- but much of it isn't.

Up to a point, but the capacity that the cross country route frees up is expected to be used by new traffic from the London Gateway development. The same issues exist on the SLL and WLL anyway, whether freight or other TOCs.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think its fair to compare the acceleration of a main line train to a tube train. Perhaps a comparison with the sub surface line S stock would be more appropriate and I'm sure that a properly driven 378 would out easily out accelerate an S stock which seems to take 30 seconds to reach 30 mph!

Fair call. The 378's acceleration may not be all that bad when measured, but because its very smooth and quiet and the doors take ages it feels slow.

 

[Aictos]

There's nothing wrong with the LOROL routes: the trains and services are purposely designed to work as a metro system you know move people from A to B who are only travelling 10 to 15 mins on the service.

I think it's selfish of the OP to complain that it's not good enough for them when it's a pretty effective system compared to other areas of the UK who only wished they had the same kind of network!

 

[LE Greys]

Up to a point, but the capacity that the cross country route frees up is expected to be used by new traffic from the London Gateway development. The same issues exist on the SLL and WLL anyway, whether freight or other TOCs.

This is a very good arguement for building an eastern section to the E-W Link plus a connection from Braintree to Stansted (or Bishop's Stortford if the idea of Freightliners rumbling under the airport runway is no good). The western and southern links are a different concern, though.

 

[HSTEd]

How are you going to provide the same 'insane acceleration capacity' to the freight locos they'd otherwise catch up with?

Sending the freight 'elsewhere' isn't really a suitable answer...

Are these freights going to destinations within central London?

If not.... we have to ask the question.... why are they even approaching Central London, let alone getting in as close as the routes operated by the Overground?

Surely additional radial upgrades further out are in order to allow them to get out of central London.

And for freightliners... I think at some point people are going to have to seriously consider FMUs.
For the simple reason that they would be able to keep up with passenger suburban trains thanks to having comparable acceleration and braking curves.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The Overground is such a vast improvement on (most of) what it replaced that (without overlooking what shortcomings it has) it almost seems churlish to complain about what it is now - in terms of trains, stations and frequency (and interconnection) of services.

It is, in short, a job well done - and the passenger numbers clearly bear that out!