London Overground line names announced

[DynamicSpirit]

The Waterloo and City Line which serves Waterloo and the old city at Bank. The Northern Line which serves north of the Thames (though named in anticipation of the Northern Heights extension plan). The Bakerloo Line whose name is a portmanteau of Baker Street and Waterloo which the was built to connect and originally called the Baker Street & Waterloo Railway. The Central Line for running through the centre of London opened under the name of Central London Railway. The Metropolitan Line (built as Metropolitan Railway) derived from the world metropolis, a term used to refer to London in the old days. The District Line was originally the Metropolitan District Railway. Jubilee and Elizabeth Line are the exceptions here because they were named in relation to Queen Elizabeth, the longest serving monarchy of the UK.

You can add to that: The Piccadilly line serves Piccadilly Circus, the Circle line refers to how the line circles around London central London, and the most recent example of a new name - the Hammersmith and City line - connects (surprise!) Hammersmith with the City. Allowing for that the District and Metropolitan lines would have been understood as somewhat geographical when they were first named, I would say the only underground line whose name isn't at least a bit geographically helpful is the Jubilee line.

 

[DjU]

You've missed the point. The new naming of the Overground lines were said to be done with the goal of helping passengers understand where they are and where they will be going (therefore making your point that you don't need to know why it's named that way incorrect), but their names do not do anything to do that.

I think you've missed the point. You've taken 2 and 2 and got 5.

The whole exercise as mentioned even a year ago when it was announced is/was to split the lines out and stop them being a homogeneous lump of 'overground' - Its the giving each line its own name and identity is what aids in helping people know where they are going or identitfy individual lines both on signage and route planning and announcements.
Once you know the line you want or use then "The Windrush Line is suspended" is far more useful to people than 'The Overground is suspended, long list of disparate stations etc"

You cut the network into chunks.
It is now set the same as the Underground.

I don't believe anyone ever claimed 'people will know exactly where they are going solely by the name and by no other method!" To even entertain that idea is a silly as it sounds - hence the comparisons with the older tube line names not being any different.

 

[urbophile]

You can add to that: The Piccadilly line serves Piccadilly Circus, the Circle line refers to how the line circles around London central London, and the most recent example of a new name - the Hammersmith and City line - connects (surprise!) Hammersmith with the City. Allowing for that the District and Metropolitan lines would have been understood as somewhat geographical when they were first named, I would say the only underground line whose name isn't at least a bit geographically helpful is the Jubilee line.

The Northern Line is distinctly unhelpful if you're heading for Morden.

 

[kristiang85]

The Northern Line is distinctly unhelpful if you're heading for Morden.

I remember many years ago, I had an American colleague staying with me for a week long work meeting. It was her first time in London so I was showing her round, but she kept asking asinine questions about the naming of the lines (which, I guess, is pretty understandable when you come from New York). I explained the Jubilee, Bakerloo, Victoria, Central, etc (even though some are pretty obvious), and when she asked about the Northern line I was a little drunk so I just sarcastically said it was in memory of the northerners who died in slave labour building it.

She actually believed me! (and to be fair she did have a point as we were going south I think, so it's a valid query). I can't recall if I ever clarified that, but part of me hopes i didn't and she's passed that fact onto generations of other tourists who visited after her...

(Not my proudest memory, I'll admit haha)

 

[DjU]

You can add to that: The Piccadilly line serves Piccadilly Circus,

I'd hardly say that the Pic and Vic by virture of mentioning a single station are any more 1% more useful as a name than a nebulous name.
The Pic for example is an exceptionally long line with two major west branches and prime mover for Heathrow. Piccadilly conveys that no more than if it was called Cucumber.

Even the other line with a station(s) name Baker-loo is a portmanteau that you have to even twig or be in the know for that to be *any* use. Can guarantee that name is lost on visitors.

Hammersmith & City and Waterloo & City are the only two that really get away with having accurate or succinct geographical names.
With Circle and Central following behind but both with minor caveats.

 

[norbitonflyer]

and the most recent example of a new name - the Hammersmith and City line - connects (surprise!) Hammersmith with the City.

It is actually a very old name - the original Hammersmith & City Railway was a branch from the GWR at Westbourne Park, opened as joint venture between the Great Western and Metropolitan Railways in 1864, less than 18 months after the first part of the Metropolitan Railway (and four years before the first part of the Metropolitan District)

 

[Andyh82]

Like others have said it’s clear political point scoring and a deliberate attempt to get people arguing

Suffragettes Line like others have said is too on the nose, and doesn’t quite work because it’s named after a group not individuals.

Lionesses Line is such a blatant attempt to jump on something that is popular at this moment. If another England team wins something will there be calls to rename something else or will it always just be the women’s football team that gets a line named after them. Why specifically the lionesses when the lions have also won the World Cup? If you want to celebrate sporting achievement, how about something Olympics themed for a line that goes near Stratford? I suppose that wasn’t on Khan’s watch so wouldn’t count.

I did think the list was one of those windups that people post on social media to deliberately cause division and get people throwing around words like woke and racist.

“This is a service update from the control room at Oxford Circus. There are minor delays on the Suffragettes Line following an earlier broken down train. The Windrush line is part suspended…’ is going to sound ridiculous

 

[DjU]

Like others have said it’s clear political point scoring and a deliberate attempt to get people arguing

Isn't it strange how its only the people that don't like them that think it done deliberately to wind them up. Rather than you winding yourself up about them. When ever you don't like it its 'politcal'

It's clear no matter what they are called some people seem determined to belive it is done to to spite them.

 

[Sorcerer]

Isn't it strange how its only the people that don't like them that think it done deliberately to wind them up. Rather than you winding yourself up about them. When ever you don't like it its 'politcal'

It's clear no matter what they are called some people seem determined to belive it is done to to spite them.

It's not about thinking it's done to wind us up, it's about the fact that the names are somewhat jarring and were not naturally formed. I will concede your earlier point that splitting the Overground into different lines instead of one single collective Overground network will make it easier for the passenger and map learning, but the names themselves are still for the sake of political points. There is no practical reason to name the Watford Line after the women's football team, nor to name the Gospel Oak-Barkling Line (Gosbark/Oakbark line anyone?) after the suffragettes (and this is from a moderate leftist who believes Emmeline Pankhurst should be on some of our money).

To an extent at least some of the names make sense. The Windrush Line is at least geographically accurate seeing as it will run through areas with many Caribbean populations, so people wanting geographical and political names both get a win there, and the Liberty Line, while sounding more American, at least has some historical significance. However, the naming is still for those sweet political points, and it bothers me when people pretend otherwise and act like any suggestion of such is just right-wing anti-woke outrage. I know gaslighting is a word often meaninglessly thrown around these days, but in this case it is actual gaslighting.

If it was up to me, these lines would've been given geographical names like the Watford Line, Eastend Line, Gosbark Line etc since it's perfectly in line with other TfL routes (ie. Gosbark combining Gospel Oak and Barking similar to Baker Street and Waterloo for Bakerloo) and is also a natural evolution from the routes previous names like how the Metropolitan Line evolved from the Metropolitan Railway and how the Central Line runs through Central London. I might've kept the idea for Windrush Line since it runs through Windrush generation areas and meets the geographical criteria.

 

[JKF]

Don’t mind the names myself, only perhaps suffragette jars a bit phonetically, and as others have said seems a bit clumsy, maybe being named after an associated place or person might work better.

Only on this place though would people consider women voting or playing football to be ‘woke’. Or maybe sadly not just here!

 

[Busaholic]

Line names pointing to where they go doesn't always work either. Nobody has yet mentioned, so far as I know, that the Jubilee Line was originally going to be named the Fleet Line, on account of it terminating at Charing Cross with an expectation that any further extension would be Eastwards to Aldwych and then underneath Fleet Street. Of course, the redevelopment of the Docklands and the creation of Canary Wharf caused a massive rethink and the abandonment of Charing Cross and thus any future eastern extension. So we would have had a Stanmore to Stratford line going nowhere near either the Fleet river or Fleet Street but called the Fleet line. I'd call that a near miss!

 

[Tester]

Now why is this not a surprise!

Conservatives in London said Khan had wasted the opportunity to sell naming rights, with the party’s mayoral candidate, Susan Hall, accusing him of spending £6.3m on “virtue signalling”.

Source: The Guardian yesterday

 

[DjU]

it's about the fact that the names are somewhat jarring and were not naturally formed.

You keep trying to hammer this home that they are innately somehow more natural. But they're not are they?

They are just words. They are just continuations of arbitrary names picked by Railway companies 130 years ago. The District or Met line frankly means sod all of *any* relevence to *anyone*. It might aswell be called the Suburb line or the Borough line.

They now have historic ties, they are now engrained in the DNA of the Underground and have had 100 years usage in various forms, that's why they feel more 'correct' - not due to any special magic of the words.

All of the suggestions you made are just as equally natural or unnatural as any of the chosen ones, arbitrarily chosen for or with whatever reasoning - like, whats 'the practical reason' for a line to be called Gosbark (yes I known its a portmanteau) a completely made up word. And apparently *not* jarring at all... Might as well call it Turnip. You'd still be able identify the line.

Line has name, line is identifiable, line is unique, signage can be more clear, maps split, announcements tailored.

In 5-10 years the new ones will be 'just the names'

In a hundred they will be part of the DNA.

Arguably the only lines that have formed 'naturally' are the Bakerloo in which the coined name overtook the real name and the Circle which was introduced as a need for a service really not a line. And thats a blimin' teacup now!

Admittedly the coined name for the Goblin is a bit of a loss of a naturally formed name. Especially with Suffragette being the weakest of the chosen ones.

It's not about thinking it's done to wind us up,
I know gaslighting is a word often meaninglessly thrown around these days, but in this case it is actual gaslighting.

Notes gaslighting is used meaninglessly and then throws its around frivolously. Utterly stupendous. No further notes.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You keep trying to hammer this home that they are innately somehow more natural. But they're not are they?

They are just words. They are just continuations of arbitrary names picked by Railway companies 130 years ago. The District or Met line frankly means sod all of *any* relevence to *anyone*. It might aswell be called the Suburb line or the Borough line.

They now have historic ties, they are now engrained in the DNA of the Underground and have had 100 years usage in various forms, that's why they feel more 'correct' - not due to any special magic of the words.

All of the suggestions you made are just as equally natural or unnatural as any of the chosen ones, arbitrarily chosen for or with whatever reasoning - like, whats 'the practical reason' for a line to be called Gosbark (yes I known its a portmanteau) a completely made up word. And apparently *not* jarring at all... Might as well call it Turnip. You'd still be able identify the line.

Line has name, line is identifiable, line is unique, signage can be more clear, maps split, announcements tailored.

In 5-10 years the new ones will be 'just the names'

In a hundred they will be part of the DNA.

Arguably the only lines that have formed 'naturally' are the Bakerloo in which the coined name overtook the real name and the Circle which was introduced as a need for a service really not a line. And thats a blimin' teacup now!

Admittedly the coined name for the Goblin is a bit of a loss of a naturally formed name.


Notes gaslighting is used meaninglessly and then throws its around frivolously. Utterly stupendous. No further notes.

I really must ask what’s prompting you to defend the name choices so relentlessly. Only because that is the 30th post you’ve made in this thread - yes, I counted, sad of me I know - arguing with someone who isn’t a fan of the name. That’s bizarrely persistent, so might I politely ask why you feel so passionately about defending TfL’s choice here?

You’ve said yourself, they’re just names, but making 30 posts (31 if you reply) to defend them really does suggest they’re more than that to you.

 

[Sorcerer]

You keep trying to hammer this home that they are innately somehow more natural. But they're not are they?

They are just words. They are just continuations of arbitrary names picked by Railway companies 130 years ago. The District or Met line frankly means sod all of *any* relevence to *anyone*. It might aswell be called the Suburb line or the Borough line.

They now have historic ties, they are now engrained in the DNA of the Underground and have had 100 years usage in various forms, that's why they feel more 'correct' - not due to any special magic of the words.

All of the suggestions you made are just as equally natural or unnatural as any of the chosen ones, arbitrarily chosen for or with whatever reasoning - like, whats 'the practical reason' for a line to be called Gosbark (yes I known its a portmanteau) a completely made up word. And apparently *not* jarring at all... Might as well call it Turnip. You'd still be able identify the line.

Line has name, line is identifiable, line is unique, signage can be more clear, maps split, announcements tailored.

In 5-10 years the new ones will be 'just the names'

In a hundred they will be part of the DNA.

Arguably the only lines that have formed 'naturally' are the Bakerloo in which the coined name overtook the real name and the Circle which was introduced as a need for a service really not a line. And thats a blimin' teacup now!


Notes gaslighting is used meaninglessly and then throws its around frivolously. Utterly stupendous. No further notes.

It's clear that your mind is made up on this, therefore I will not be wasting my time engaging in further discussion with you about it.

 

[Thirteen]

Now why is this not a surprise!

Conservatives in London said Khan had wasted the opportunity to sell naming rights, with the party’s mayoral candidate, Susan Hall, accusing him of spending £6.3m on “virtue signalling”.

Source: The Guardian yesterday

Honestly, Susan Hall is such a terrible candidate.

I personally like the names apart from the Lioness Line because it's a tongue twister, the colours are nice, the green for Suffragette Line is somewhere between the District's dark green and the Tram's light green.

Interesting that the Lioness Line is light orange and not dark orange.

 

[DjU]

I really must ask what’s prompting you to defend the name choices so relentlessly. Only because that is the 30th post you’ve made in this thread - yes, I counted, sad of me I know - arguing with someone who isn’t a fan of the name. That’s bizarrely persistent,

Thank you for keeping track on my posts, I was unaware I had strayed past my quota of replies. Didn't realise you can only reply a person once. I shall note that down. Obviously that means I shall not be replying to you past this post.

It's all very odd as there was someone else that tried to say leave the board if you don't want debate or discussion and I'm still having a dicussion and someone is telling me to stop posting.

That’s bizarrely persistent, so might I politely ask why you feel so passionately about defending TfL’s choice here?
You’ve said yourself, they’re just names, but making 30 posts (31 if you reply) to defend them really does suggest they’re more than that to you.

Swing and miss. I quite clearly said they could be called whatever, the chosen ones to me have no affinity to me. You seem to labeling anyone who wants to dicuss any merits of the names as 'defenders'. Very odd.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I was expecting the "Samsung Line", "Burberry Line", "Circle to Search" Line.

TfL could have gotten billions with this idea!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thank you for keeping track on my posts, I was unaware I had strayed past my quota of replies. Didn't realise you can only reply a person once. I shall note that down. Obviously that means I shall not be replying to you past this post.

It's all very odd as there was someone else that tried to say leave the board if you don't want debate or discussion and I'm still having a dicussion and someone is telling me to stop posting.

I asked out of genuine interest so I could try and understand and empathise more with what you were trying to say, so I’m sad you’ve taken it as me “telling [you] to stop posting.” That wasn’t what I was saying at all, so it’s a shame. I’m sorry if you saw it that way.

I was expecting the "Samsung Line", "Burberry Line", "Circle to Search" Line.

TfL could have gotten billions with this idea!

I have to say, especially what with the London Cable Car’s past branding, I am surprised TfL didn’t jump on the chance to get some advertising and sponsors in the names.

Swing and miss. I quite clearly said they could be called whatever, the chosen ones to me have no affinity to me. You seem to labeling anyone who wants to dicuss any merits of the names as 'defenders'. Very odd.

I might add that I really like the choice of Lioness line for Watford, purely because I think it’s a pretty sounding name and I like the cheerful matching yellow.

 

[JJmoogle]

Lionesses Line is such a blatant attempt to jump on something that is popular at this moment. If another England team wins something will there be calls to rename something else or will it always just be the women’s football team that gets a line named after them. Why specifically the lionesses when the lions have also won the World Cup? If you want to celebrate sporting achievement, how about something Olympics themed for a line that goes near Stratford? I suppose that wasn’t on Khan’s watch so wouldn’t count.

When the men won that World Cup, a moment so ingrained in the psyche of England the FA was still straight up banning women from using FA facilities to play football.

I keep seeing this idea of 'popular at the moment' being suggested from various places but if you're aware of the history of the womens game this seems somewhat unknowing given the arduous history to get the womens game back at all.

I find the recognition of the womens team on the tube map rather beautiful given that struggle, a permenant yet understated reminder, after all it's simply the name of a female lion if you don't look too deeply.

 

[birchesgreen]

That would require a major redesign of the map and some serious thought about how to visually distinguish the different modes in a way that's intuitive - and I see no sign of TfL doing that.

As it is, I expect the unwieldy map to become even harder to follow due to the duplication of colours that we're going to see with the new names.

Well i haven't seen it yet (in context) so will reserve final judgement until then, but the intention is good and right anyway.

 

[leonie13]

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but the renaming of the lines prompted me to research a bit of the history of the North London Line, and I was surprised to learn it continued past Stratford down to North Woolwich, back in the day.

How did this work at Stratford? Did trains have to reverse or was Stratford station completely remodelled at some point? Today's layout doesn't seem to support such a route without a reversal, unless I'm mistaken?

 

[bramling]

Isn't it strange how its only the people that don't like them that think it done deliberately to wind them up. Rather than you winding yourself up about them. When ever you don't like it its 'politcal'

It's clear no matter what they are called some people seem determined to belive it is done to to spite them.

What most people will think is “politician wastes £6 million pounds of taxpayer money on an attention-seeking gimmick”, whilst at the same time noting that they can’t get a GP appointment / can’t register with a dentist / their local council is dysfunctional / their local national rail service is on strike all the time / they can’t afford their mortgage / their local mental health provision is appalling, or whatever.

Their opinion of politics and politicians as a whole then sinks just that little bit more into the already-deep gutter.

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but the renaming of the lines prompted me to research a bit of the history of the North London Line, and I was surprised to learn it continued past Stratford down to North Woolwich, back in the day.

How did this work at Stratford? Did trains have to reverse or was Stratford station completely remodelled at some point? Today's layout doesn't seem to support such a route without a reversal, unless I'm mistaken?

The line originally ran into the low-level platforms, which are now used by the DLR Stratford International branch, hence no need to reverse.

As a matter of interest, going back even further the actual North London Line ran to Broad Street and Poplar. North Woolwich was very much a Great Eastern line, and the traditional service ran from there to Palace Gates of all places.

 

[JJmoogle]

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but the renaming of the lines prompted me to research a bit of the history of the North London Line, and I was surprised to learn it continued past Stratford down to North Woolwich, back in the day.

How did this work at Stratford? Did trains have to reverse or was Stratford station completely remodelled at some point? Today's layout doesn't seem to support such a route without a reversal, unless I'm mistaken?

It used to curve off into and then through where The DLR and Jubilee platforms on the lower level

 

[davews]

Well the discussion goes on....
My initial response has not change, the new line names are awful whatever you views. Although I have done loads of walking in London I had never heard of Mildmay until yesterday, even less the significance of the hospital which is there. I don't watch football, I thought Lioness was something to do with Africa. Similarly Windrush, although I grew up in the 1950s I had not even heard of them until it became the news a few years ago. Suffragettes, that is now fortunately history and is totally meaningless regarding specific places in London. Liberty, wasn't there a ship of that name, London hardly strikes me a place where everybody is free to do what they want.

Guess we will get used to them but they will jar for a very long time, long after Kahn has left the scene.

 

[yorksrob]

Now why is this not a surprise!

Conservatives in London said Khan had wasted the opportunity to sell naming rights, with the party’s mayoral candidate, Susan Hall, accusing him of spending £6.3m on “virtue signalling”.

Source: The Guardian yesterday

I have to say, I'd take Civic naming over tacky commercialism any day. What could we have:

The Southern Water line (brown obviously)

The Ratners line (off gold)

 

[Skoodle]

....how about something Olympics themed for a line that goes near Stratford? I suppose that wasn’t on Khan’s watch so wouldn’t count.

The Olympic Line would have been perfect, unfortunately IOC's trademarks prohibit use of the words “Olympic”, “Olympiad” and “Olympic Games” - so could never have been an option.

 

[kristiang85]

The Olympic Line would have been perfect, unfortunately IOC's trademarks prohibit use of the words “Olympic”, “Olympiad” and “Olympic Games” - so could never have been an option.

The 2012 Line might have been quite nostalgic. I feel that was the last time we all had some form of collective pride in our country.

 

[The exile]

The Olympic Line would have been perfect, unfortunately IOC's trademarks prohibit use of the words “Olympic”, “Olympiad” and “Olympic Games” - so could never have been an option.

How did the shipping line manage? Presumably predated the trademark.
And they could hardly have objected to “Olympia Line” for Stratford to Clapham Jn given that it passes through Kenny O.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There is one reason why the Northern line name stuck despite it going further south, is that at the time and still exists today south of the river was dominated by the Southern Railway, so having the Southern line at Balham would have caused some confusion.

Line names pointing to where they go doesn't always work either. Nobody has yet mentioned, so far as I know, that the Jubilee Line was originally going to be named the Fleet Line, on account of it terminating at Charing Cross with an expectation that any further extension would be Eastwards to Aldwych and then underneath Fleet Street. Of course, the redevelopment of the Docklands and the creation of Canary Wharf caused a massive rethink and the abandonment of Charing Cross and thus any future eastern extension. So we would have had a Stanmore to Stratford line going nowhere near either the Fleet river or Fleet Street but called the Fleet line. I'd call that a near miss!

Honestly I’m surprised no one has mentioned this yet, that had the original name gone ahead with the Fleet line, only for the extension via Fleet Street to be cancelled in 1980s it would have been a bit of embarrassment, they probably would have renamed the line at the time of the extension, I believe the alternate name was the River line at one point? This would be a good name as the line does cross the river Thames four times between Westminster & Stratford