London Overground to go completly DOO by July 2014

[Greenback]

(Lets be sensitive here and not have the debate, yet again, about the pros and cons of DOO. this is the human side of DOO conversion- job losses, during a period of high unemployment)

I couldn't agree more.

The unions and others should now be pressing to retain the Guards but as customer service / revenue protection staff. Encouraging people to travel by train is important, and having a visible second member of staff on the train is particularly important for many sectors of the public.

Absolutely right. It certainly enhances the travelling experience of the paying customer to have someone on board to give information, check tickets and be a visible deterrent to anti social behaviour.

although I am open minded exactly as to what form this person should take.

As am I, though the obvious ones are a ticket inspector/revenue protection officer.

Steady on; whilst nobody likes change, Lorol have not said what the arrangements will be for the redeployment of affected staff and there is no definite guarantee that people will lose their jobs.

Indeed. I would not expect anyone to be made redundant. I am very sorry for 313103 and I hope and expect that he will be found alternative work, possibly (ideally) with pay protection as well.

 

[maniacmartin]

I have always wondered what the primary role of a Travel Safe officer is. They appear to come across as something between private security and customer services. Whilst I don't think they are strictly necessary, it is nice to have them around, and I have seen them assisting passengers, handing out timetables and such.

However, I suspect that Travel Safe Officers are paid much less than guards, so transfer guards to this role would still leave them financially worse off.

 

[yorkie]

I agree, alternative roles should be found. I had to re-apply for my job and take a pay cut / work more hours for the same pay, and it's not a nice experience at all, but far better than nothing. The union may be able to negotiate some 'pay protection' for a period of time.

 

[Muzer]

The RMT are already pledging to fight this move by TfL;

See Source



I feel very sorry for all those guards affected by this, both for themselves and their families. While it's not ideal I hope that TfL/LOROL are able to come up with ideas for redeployment within the company. Another move towards DOO is deeply concerning, and I dearly hope it doesn't give any TOCs other ideas.

Thoughts to 313103 and his fellow LO guards.

Trouble is with the RMT, because Bob Crow is so crazy, when he does actually say something worthwhile nobody listens to him.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm very sorry to hear about this and I hope that LO will keep the second member of staff on board with focus on customer service. I dislike travelling on trains where the only other member of staff is the driver and feel much better knowing there is someone else around. Hopefully the Unions will put pressure on LO to adopt the Strathclyde style of working which does seems quite successful.

 

[transmanche]

Get the public on side too, run local campaigns, if needs be get the union to do a bit of scaremongering.

"The news that millions of passengers are to be put at risk through plans to throw the guards off London Overground trains on north London routes will send shockwaves through transport services.

Well it looks like RMT have already started that ball rolling. I can't see that Bob Crow's rhetoric is going to do much good, as the travelling public in London is used to DOO rail services. A large proportion of rail services in and around London are already DOO; including all London Underground services and some other London Overground services. And the difference between DOO on LU and LO (compared to say FCC) is that the stations are manned - from first train to last.

To the travelling public (especially to those on the ELL) Bob Crow's statement just looks like another example of crying wolf. More importantly it does a disservice to the affected members of staff (such as 313103) who deserve proper negotiation in order to get the best possible deal, rather than political soapboxing.

[...] whether in this day and age a company can justify two different methods of operation across their network without valid reason I don't know. LOROL inherited guards on those sections of the network where they are employed rather than created them.

What I've gleaned from here is that the ELL (and the Euston-Watford line?) are DOO. Does LO have any second-person-on-board on these routes? Whether ticket inspector, CSA or other type of presence? (I'm not sure which of these is what ainsworth74 describes as the Strathclyde method of working.) Or is it just travelling teams of RPIs?

To 313103, my sympathies at a worrying time. Redundancy (and even just the prospect of redundancy) is never easy. But sometimes it can open new and unexpected avenues. I hope at the very least you get a decent package from LO. Good luck!

 

[Pumbaa]

Condolences etc staff affected. I was wondering when this would break open here, the papers were doing the rounds earlier this week.

A couple of points to add;

- As others have pointed out, the compensation package/other roles are yet to be announced.
- Don't confuse LOROL and London Overground. In this instance, LOROL are people running the concession. London Overground is the TfL moniker for rail. I'm not sure who came up with the idea to cut costs in this manner in the first instance, but both parties have agreed it. Ultimately, it has the support of City Hall. I suspect (I have no evidence to suggest either way) that this has come direct from them, as LOROL as an outfit has little incentive to go through the trouble of implementing DOO.
- The paper I saw said 172s /Gospel - Barking will retain guards until electrification and assumed introduction of 378s commences. I highly doubt this will occur prior to July 2014.

 

[Mojo]

What I've gleaned from here is that the ELL (and the Euston-Watford line?) are DOO. Does LO have any second-person-on-board on these routes? Whether ticket inspector, CSA or other type of presence? (I'm not sure which of these is what ainsworth74 describes as the Strathclyde method of working.) Or is it just travelling teams of RPIs?

Yes; the Watford DC line and the East London line and its branches are operated as DOO by London Overground. Other than stations that are all staffed during traffic hours, the only on-board presence as you suggest is just travelling teams of Revenue Protection Inspectors and TravelSafe Officers.

Despite their official job title being conductor, as far as I've seen all guards on London Overground trains are non-commercial so do not inspect customers' tickets or Oyster cards.

 

[Pumbaa]

Despite their official job title being conductor, as far as I've seen all guards on London Overground trains are non-commercial so do not inspect customers' tickets or Oyster cards.

Yes, safety/CS only.

I highly doubt this will be the last DOO proposal we see this year.

 

[thelem]

I have my doubts they will dare take on the unions over this, it is probably just posturing.

What is the union structure here? Are there many other essential staff in the same union as the conductors? If the whole grade is facing redundancy, then a strike will have reduced effectiveness, and may just serve to hasten the introduction of DOO.

If this is a result of cuts in government subsidy, then we must consider the alternatives. Would it have been better to lose the same number of staff from other govenment services? No one likes cuts, but conductors are probably one of the least-bad options.

 

[313103]

So sorry Guys and Girls for not replying to my original post. First of all I am really touched by your thoughts, I know that I can be a argumentative so and so at times, I think that is to show how passionate I really am. I would like to say thank you to you all.

Well I have just got home having spent some days in Manchester and also doing the ELR Diesel gala. I actually had a wonderful time at the event and it was at this event that I received the news. On arriving back at the hotel later in the day I noticed that I few of the conductors had posted messages to my facebook page. It was then confirmed just now in the last 10 minutes since I got home by a letter from the Customer Services Director. I would like to post it but I don't know how to.

These will be difficult months ahead, and I have already started the process to look for other jobs outside the industry. Hopefully the company wont stop me from going to job interviews during the next couple of months.

Once again thank you all for your support.

 

[AlexS]

Very sorry to see you in this position again, and I hope you manage to find something fulfilling to do, whether that's inside the industry or out - a change can be as good as a rest.

I don't see the RMT overturning this one, for better or for worse. I don't necessarily agree with it, it's just done as a cost saving and nothing more, but I can see why it's been selected for these lines (you're never more than 2 or 3 minutes walk let alone train ride from a station/access point should you end up in trouble and require external assistance, along with GSM-R to summon it). I do think, as TfL has created such a high quality service, that if it does go through, something along the lines of the Strathclyde agreement should be brought in for all of their DOO services.

 

[ainsworth74]

(I'm not sure which of these is what ainsworth74 describes as the Strathclyde method of working.)

The service is in effect DOO but every train should have a Ticket Examiner on board. They aren't safety critical and therefore don't do dispatch but they'll sell tickets, do customer service (like wheelchair ramps, answering questions) and during disruption they're a visible presence to passengers. I also believe they've had training to enable them to help evacuate a train and talk to signallers and therefore would be useful in an emergency situation.

To my mind if you have to have DOO (and unfortunately it seems we do, at least on services like LO) then that's the model that should be used. Roving bands of RPIs is not sufficient.

 

[ChristopherJ]

Best of luck. You held out against the odds of BR, NSE and Silverlink making you redundant in the past - you deserve a slice of the good life by now!

Why not apply to be a conductor on one of Boris's new wonder buses? Apply for the same job with the same authority that is ultimately making you redundant. :roll:

What the hell is Boris playing at... Getting rid of conductors on trains to make them DOO, while simultaneously employing conductors on DOO bus routes to make them double manned...

Madness. Utter madness.

 

[notadriver]

Is this the beginning of the end of 'overpaid' train staff ? Will train drivers soon be on the same hourly rate as bus drivers - maybe even less ?

 

[bronzeonion]

Are LOROL in any financial danger?? If not this decision was bases on pure greed! I thought LOROL had something going for them but now they've shown theyre just like any other TOC.

 

[313103]

Just been doing some applications now and I never realised how difficult they are (1 inside the industry 2 outside) and already I am struggling. I left school with no exam marks so I am already at the bottom. I am just hoping that my previous experience of customer service will help in some way.

One job has a closing date of 19 July and I don't even have a CV yet. Not sure how one is done so ive asked a friend and she is sending me a CV to show me what I have to do. When I got that done I will be sending those applications off.

I am trying to be upbeat at the moment. I am a little brain dead at the moment so will look more on the job front again tomorrow.

 

[ChristopherJ]

I know you have a while before redunancy but make sure you go to your local Jobcentre to Sign On for Jobseekers Allowance and contact your local council to find if you're eligable for Housing Benefit and Council Tax Support should worst come to the worst and you fail to find alternative employment in the interim.

P.S - you have a PM.

 

[notadriver]

313103 do you not possess a PCV license ? If so London bus drivers are on very similar money to Lorol conductors.

 

[Dr.iver]

Is this the beginning of the end of 'overpaid' train staff ? Will train drivers soon be on the same hourly rate as bus drivers - maybe even less ?

Not jealous much are we ? Does the thought of someone holding a more responsible job then yourself really mean you have to come up with a question like this ? Let me guess you failed the assessment right and you have been bitter ever since ?

I hope and expect Aslef to join the fight to prevent these job losses and I wish every railway colleague affected the best of luck in fighting this decision

 

[Sleepy]

Not jealous much are we ? Does the thought of someone holding a more responsible job then yourself really mean you have to come up with a question like this ? Let me guess you failed the assessment right and you have been bitter ever since ?

I hope and expect Aslef to join the fight to prevent these job losses and I wish every railway colleague affected the best of luck in fighting this decision

The number of LOROL drivers in RMT & how much ASLEF are prepared to get involved will decide the outcome IMHO.

 

[deltabravo]

Not jealous much are we ? Does the thought of someone holding a more responsible job then yourself really mean you have to come up with a question like this ? Let me guess you failed the assessment right and you have been bitter ever since ?

I hope and expect Aslef to join the fight to prevent these job losses and I wish every railway colleague affected the best of luck in fighting this decision

As far as I'm aware, notadriver is actually a train driver...

 

[Monty]

I hope and expect Aslef to join the fight to prevent these job losses and I wish every railway colleague affected the best of luck in fighting this decision

I mean no disrespect to any ASLEF members here, but don't count on it.

313103 for what it's worth you could try and call SWT's recruitment office and enquire about becoming a guard at Waterloo? Even if there are no vacancies now it can't hurt to make your interest known so when a vacancy does become available you are at the top of the pile so to speak.

 

[A-driver]

Obviously none of us know what will happen out of this (if anything) but its worth bearing in mind that the RMT won't roll over and if nothing else won't want to loose members. What I'm getting at is that with ASLEF, both times recently where drivers have been made redundant (Eurostar and Wrexham & Shropshire) the union were very good at securing deals with other TOCs and ensuring that any recruitment in the driver grade went to the drivers who had been made redundant before they advertised vacancies anywhere else and as far as I know most, if not all, the redundant drivers got jobs at other TOCs very quickly.

There is a good chance that if this did go as far as redundancy the rmt would do the same with operators such as London midland, swt, set and southern.

I fear this is a largely politically motivated decision and based on the mayors continuous battle with the rmt. He has failed to get rid of tube drivers and is now looking elsewhere. I suppose its a fear of TFL taking control of franchises as I doubt the dft would have made such a move, and as I have said in other threads the dft seem to be agains expanding DOO at present.


Obviously if you can find other work you prefer then go for it but its early days yet and nothing is set in stone and I would have some faith in your union for the time being, as I say it is in their interest as well to find you alternative work should it come to that.

 

[JB25]

Sorry to go slightly off track here but where do LOROL use Guards? Certainly all their West Croydon - Dalston stuff seems to be DOO from what I can tell.

 

[bicbasher]

Sorry to go slightly off track here but where do LOROL use Guards? Certainly all their West Croydon - Dalston stuff seems to be DOO from what I can tell.

ELL/SLL and Watford DC are DOO. The other lines have guards.

 

[ChristopherJ]

Sorry to go slightly off track here but where do LOROL use Guards? Certainly all their West Croydon - Dalston stuff seems to be DOO from what I can tell.

Stratford - Richmond (North London Line)
Stratford / Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction (West London Line)
Gospel Oak - Barking

All other routes are DOO.

Would I be correct in guessing the reason for delay of DOO implementation between the NLL/WLL and Gospel Oak - Barking routes is because of rolling stock modification?

• The 378 EMUs operate both a mixture of DOO (Watford/ELL/SLL) and crewed (NLL/WLL) services and are pre-installed and ready for immediate switch to DOO operation?
  
  
• The 172 DMUs on the Gospel Oak - Barking were not designed for DOO operation and require modification? Will LOROL choose in-cab dispatch cameras (used on the 378s) or install CCTV monitors on the station platforms?

 

[yorkie]

Why not apply to be a conductor on one of Boris's new wonder buses? Apply for the same job with the same authority that is ultimately making you redundant. :roll:

The new buses do not have conductors. If they were conductors they'd be at a higher grade. They're also not comparable with Guards either.

Getting rid of conductors on trains to make them DOO, while simultaneously employing conductors on DOO bus routes to make them double manned...

But neither are Conductors. There's not a comparison between a non-commercial Guard, and a platform attendant. The only thing they have in common is that they don't check or issue tickets.

Are LOROL in any financial danger?? If not this decision was bases on pure greed! I thought LOROL had something going for them but now they've shown theyre just like any other TOC.

See previous posts, including this one...

...Ultimately, it has the support of City Hall. I suspect (I have no evidence to suggest either way) that this has come direct from them, as LOROL as an outfit has little incentive to go through the trouble of implementing DOO....

Not jealous much are we ? Does the thought of someone holding a more responsible job then yourself really mean you have to come up with a question like this ? Let me guess you failed the assessment right and you have been bitter ever since ?

notadriver has, in fact informed us that he is a train driver (as well as being a qualified as a bus/coach driver) but just posts in a way that suggests he isn't. Loads of people seem to fall for it, you are not the first and you won't be the last!

 

[Antman]

Best of luck. You held out against the odds of BR, NSE and Silverlink making you redundant in the past - you deserve a slice of the good life by now!

Why not apply to be a conductor on one of Boris's new wonder buses? Apply for the same job with the same authority that is ultimately making you redundant. :roll:

What the hell is Boris playing at... Getting rid of conductors on trains to make them DOO, while simultaneously employing conductors on DOO bus routes to make them double manned...

Madness. Utter madness.

They are two completely seperate issues.

Is there any justification for keeping gaurds? Other parts of LO seem to run alright in DOO mode.

 

[dlj83]

313103 do you not possess a PCV license ? If so London bus drivers are on very similar money to Lorol conductors.

What's the salary for a conductor on the NBfL