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London Overground to go completly DOO by July 2014

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313103

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Lorol are to implement plans for their network to be 100% DOO by July 2014. It will be done in two stages. The North London and West London lines by December 2013 and the Gospel Oak to Barking line by July 2014.

I cannot give any links to the info but reps were called to a meeting late on Friday and were given the news there.

A total of 104 posts will be lost including mine.
 
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Tom C

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Sorry to hear that!!

Not that I am advocating losing guards on trains (exact opposite in fact!) but are there redeployment plans or is it full scale redundancy?

DOO=Driver Only Operation
 
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313103

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DOO Driver Only Operation.
Too early to know what contingencies are in place.
If you could transfer to Drivers grade, most would of already done it. You have to go through numerous tests before you can become a driver.
 

Tom C

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Best of luck in the coming months, been through consulation for the loss of posts myself and its an awful thing to have to go through.

Hope they see the error in what they are doing.
 
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I was under the impression that with the new deal that the rmt signed that nothing would happen till 2015
 

Latecomer

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It's always been on the cards really. Assuming that this news is confirmed in due course then it's very sad for those involved as I don't see their being sufficient opportunities for redeployment in what is still a relatively small company.
 

RichmondCommu

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From a customer point of view this is very disappointing. Very tempting to write to Boris about this but of course it would be a complete waste of time and paper.
 

43021HST

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Havn't NSE been doing that with various success since the eighties on London commuter lines.

I don't agree with DOO, as it can endanger both the saftey of the driver and the passengers.
 

HSTEd

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Wouldn't this be the first major DOO conversion on an existing line since privatisation?

I have my doubts they will dare take on the unions over this, it is probably just posturing.
 

Aictos

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As much as I think this is a step too far, could LOROL follow in the steps of the former SPT area and have the former guards just do revenue and customer service with the drivers having full responsibility of the train?
 

jopsuk

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Sorry to hear this. Especially bad timing PR-wise what the recent re-introduction of a second member of staff on a TfL bus route.

(Lets be sensitive here and not have the debate, yet again, about the pros and cons of DOO. this is the human side of DOO conversion- job losses, during a period of high unemployment)
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
Wouldn't this be the first major DOO conversion on an existing line since privatisation?

I have my doubts they will dare take on the unions over this, it is probably just posturing.



They are obviously prepared to do so despite the well documented evidence of the challenges they will face with them if earlier pre and post privitisation convertins are anything to go by.

I personally have mixed views - I can see the TOCs point on the issue and we all want value for money in life but the safety critical roll of the guard still means something to me and shouldnt be underestimated.

↲speeking personally, on a system like overground which serves so many different areas of a diverse city I think this is a mistake and in some instances and at some times of day would make me think twice as a disabled traveler about using it.↲

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry to hear this. Especially bad timing PR-wise what the recent re-introduction of a second member of staff on a TfL bus route.

(Lets be sensitive here and not have the debate, yet again, about the pros and cons of DOO. this is the human side of DOO conversion- job losses, during a period of high unemployment)



agreed entirely and although my last post may suggest I want a debate I was mearly sharing my views on the poor nature of the decision in this instance. My very first thought is naturally for the 124 posts sheduled to go and it to me makes a mockery of Borris's hot air about wanting to create and sustain jobs in London.↲
 

Solent&Wessex

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As much as I think this is a step too far, could LOROL follow in the steps of the former SPT area and have the former guards just do revenue and customer service with the drivers having full responsibility of the train?

I think this is the way forward, and if I were the unions I would press for this course of action.

One of the reasons that DOO is seen as attractive by manglement in urban "metro" style services is the fact that Guards are seen as a wasted asset. Whilst I am not denigrating the role of the Guard (I am one myself of course!), it is true that the opening and closing of doors can be accomplished just as safely by the driver in these situations. But, due to the nature of the services and stopping pattern, it is seen that that is all the Guard does. If the driver can do that bit, what do we need a Guard for?

The unions and others should now be pressing to retain the Guards but as customer service / revenue protection staff. Encouraging people to travel by train is important, and having a visible second member of staff on the train is particularly important for many sectors of the public. Get the public on side too, run local campaigns, if needs be get the union to do a bit of scaremongering.

I am convinced that all trains should have a visible second member of staff, although I am open minded exactly as to what form this person should take.
 

notadriver

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The Javelin trains have their on board manager position - non safety critical and on every train. But totally customer service orientated. How do current conductor guards see / feel about that role ?
 

Mojo

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No. C2C converted to Driver Only Operation at about the turn of the century.
Although I believe their 12-car services still require a guard, or 'Train Captain' on board, or at least certainly did a few years ago.

Whilst I certainly think it's a shame to lose tradition and so on, and definitely that customer-facing role on late night trains, the Overground is now a lot better with its staffed stations than before. So I hope the staff will be redeployed to either an on-board customer service role, revenue protection, or to improve staffing at stations as I feel they could be much more valuable here.

Still, Lorol must have recruited quite a few guards in the past few years and hope these people are protected; certainly at my company the policy is First In Last Out, so let's hope they can find something for them!
 

Andrewlong

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On the Reading to Waterloo SWT service, the guard spends so much of their time opening and closing doors that they are unable to do any ticket checking/revenue collection.

So even if the traditional role of the guard may change, with the proposed closure of ticket offices - as others have said there is a clear need for a role here. And unions need to concentrate on this rather than the loss of jobs which happen anyway throughout the economy.
 

Yew

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Train captain, haven't heard that one before...

I think having a customer service person in board makes a lot of sense. Would they be safety trained though? (Like detonators and all that)
 

jopsuk

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A further reminder that we're not talking about a hypothetical situation, but a real loss of employment affecting a member of this forum.
 

Mojo

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A further reminder that we're not talking about a hypothetical situation, but a real loss of employment affecting a member of this forum.
Steady on; whilst nobody likes change, Lorol have not said what the arrangements will be for the redeployment of affected staff and there is no definite guarantee that people will lose their jobs.
 

trentside

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The RMT are already pledging to fight this move by TfL;

See Source

Rail union RMT today pledged an all out fight, including the use of strike action, following the bombshell announcement that over a hundred guards on London Overground will be kicked off the trains and sacked within the year in the first tranche of multi million pound spending cuts on London's transport services in the wake of the Government spending review.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said;

"The news that millions of passengers are to be put at risk through plans to throw the guards off London Overground trains on north London routes will send shockwaves through transport services.

"We can expect many more of these attacks on jobs and safety as TFL slash hundreds of millions from their budget at Government behest. They will be met with the fiercest possible resistance from RMT as we link up the groups of workers in the firing line. "

Ends

I feel very sorry for all those guards affected by this, both for themselves and their families. While it's not ideal I hope that TfL/LOROL are able to come up with ideas for redeployment within the company. Another move towards DOO is deeply concerning, and I dearly hope it doesn't give any TOCs other ideas.

Thoughts to 313103 and his fellow LO guards.
 

Latecomer

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One problem is that LOROL already operates DOO services on the ELL. It is not so very long ago that there was a thread on here ahead of the Clapham extension expressing concern over safety, etc because of certain areas it travels through. That did not wash with me then and it doesn't now.

The trains are busy at all times of day, they are well lit, they have clear CCTV and above all the fact that they are open carriages the whole length of the train makes for a pretty safe environment.

As a driver I might prefer to have a guard for other reasons. If things do go wrong it is indeed nice to have someone else to make announcements to passengers and keep them reassured whilst you remain focussed on safety critical issues, etc. It's always good to have someone else there (and indeed for them to assist in safety critical matters in the event of accident, evacuation, etc). These are rare events however and whether in this day and age a company can justify two different methods of operation across their network without valid reason I don't know. LOROL inherited guards on those sections of the network where they are employed rather than created them. I felt it was only a matter of time.

As I stated earlier, I feel desperately sorry for potential job losses but looking rationally I can see why this might be done. On the potentially negative side there are a couple of issues. Firstly, it would be the first major challenge for LOROL in terms of industrial relations and how that is managed (outside of the Travel Safe Officer dispute from which LOROL were one step removed by virtue of not employing Travel Safe Officers directly). Secondly, it would depend on how quietly it is done (partly dependent on the above) and whether there is significant passenger disquiet.

I might finally add that a lot will also ride on how redeployment and/or redundancy is handled. Thus far LOROL tend to have been fairly generous with regard to drivers who have been redeployed or 'moved on'. I would hope that this extends to guards.
 
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yorkie

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Havn't NSE been doing that with various success since the eighties on London commuter lines.
NSE ceased to exist nearly 20 years ago, but yes they did.

I don't agree with DOO, as it can endanger both the saftey of the driver and the passengers.
A very provocative statement. We've had the DOO debate many times before, and it can get very heated. I'm not so sure that I feel safer on an SWT inner-suburban 455 than on a Scotrail Strathclyde electric service, or a Southeastern service on HS1, but I agree with jopsuk, we really don't need that debate, and anyone who missed them can easily find them..
(Lets be sensitive here and not have the debate, yet again, about the pros and cons of DOO. this is the human side of DOO conversion- job losses, during a period of high unemployment)
A total of 104 posts will be lost including mine.
I am very sorry to hear that. :(
 

Monty

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On the Reading to Waterloo SWT service, the guard spends so much of their time opening and closing doors that they are unable to do any ticket checking/revenue collection.

This is more to do with the fact that 458s only have guards panels in the cabs and you can only release and close the doors from there.

It's a shame that LOROL wish to abolish guards on their services, I used to be a regular user of the NLL and I have to say I'd be a little concerned about travelling on it at night knowing the only staff member on board was the driver. 313103 as a fellow guard you have my sympathy and my support I truly hope the union can dissuade LOROL from carrying out this proposal.
 

bicbasher

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Maybe it's time to consider bringing in the supposed 'Travel Safe' officers contract in-house and hire most if not all of the 103 guards to provide a broader customer service role on the NLL/WLL/DC/GOBLIN services instead?

This action will be the biggest test for the TfL concessionaire, which will see if they can implement the cuts handed to them by TfL's cuts to it's budget.
 
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