London Season Ticket

[lc78]

Hi,
I will move to London soon and I need to exchange my actual season ticket (from Cambridge to London) with a new one to travel in London. My office is close to Farringdon and my new house is in Beckenham.
Thanks to your previous posts I understood how the changeover works and I figured out how much the “pro rata” could be if I purchase a season ticket from Beckenham Junction (BKJ) to Farringdon (ZFD) but I have few questions to get the best from my money ( why not? )

1. It happens that I need to travel to Cambridge few times a months, can I buy a season ticket from BKJ to St Pancras and stop to Farringdon? It will save me few pounds on the tube tickets the times I need to go to Kings Cross
2. Is it possible to buy a season ticket from BKJ to London Terminals and stop to Farringdon?
3. For some reasons that I don’t understand a season ticket from Shortlands (SRT - one stop before BKJ) to Hampstead (one stop after St Pancras) costs £1,180 instead £1,244. Can I use it to travel from BKJ to ZFD?
4. Can I buy a season ticket from SRT to London Terminals and use it to other routes (for example to go to London Victoria or London Bridge) from BKJ?

Thank you very much for your help!

 

[soil]

1. a Beck Jn - St P season is routed 'Not Underground'. St Pancras is a member of the London Routeing Point Group, but does not appear on maps of Beck Jn - London. Therefore the ticket is valid on permitted routes to Blackfriars, on the relevant maps.

These are:
LK and LL: http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=61
SL http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=98

A Beckenham Junction - St Pancras season is therefore valid:

Beckenham Junction - Herne Hill
Herne Hill - Tulse Hill
Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye
Peckham Rye - Victoria
Peckham Rye - Blackfriars
Herne Hill - Victoria
Herne Hill - Blackfriars
Beckenham Junction - Petts Wood
Petts Wood - Orpington for interchange purposes only
Bickley - Peckham Rye
Petts Wood - Lewisham
Lewisham - Peckham Rye

plus
Blackfriars - St Pancras

You could start and end your journey between any two stations en route, and combine any number of these segments in one journey

Beck Jn - London Terminals has additional validity as follows:

Hither Green - New Cross
New Cross - London Bridge
London Bridge - Waterloo East
Waterloo East - Charing Cross
Beckenham Junction - Crystal Palace
Crystal Palace - Victoria (via Streatham Hill and Clapham Junction)
London Bridge - Cannon Street

But, it is not valid between Blackfriars and St Pancras

So the London Terminals ticket is more flexible, as it is valid to/via Clapham Junction, London Bridge, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Victoria, Blackfriars, and Waterloo East, instead of St Pancras, Farringdon, Blackfriars and Victoria.

2. No this is not permitted, the ticket is only valid as far as Blackfriars.

 

[LexyBoy]

1. Yes, you may use a Season on any route permitted by the ticket and at any intermediate stations. It may not work the barriers at Farringdon however (I'd be surprised if it does), but this has no bearing on validity. Make sure you're issued a ticket specifically to St Pancras and not London Terminals - the latter is not valid beyond City Thameslink.
2. No, as above.
3. Yes, you may use a Season for intermediate journeys on any permitted route. I've not checked but can't see any reason why there would be routes permitted from BKJ which are not from SRT.
4. Yes, but it will not be valid to Farringdon.

 

[soil]

It's not valid to City Thameslink, only as far as Blackfriars.

 

[bb21]

1. It happens that I need to travel to Cambridge few times a months, can I buy a season ticket from BKJ to St Pancras and stop to Farringdon? It will save me few pounds on the tube tickets the times I need to go to Kings Cross

The route on the ticket is Not Underground which means you are supposed to use Thameslink services to cross London, and of course you can stop short at Farringdon. However the ticket must be issued to/from London St Pancrs and not London Terminals.

Beware that this ticket is not valid on London Underground between Farringdon and King's Cross St Pancras, only on National Rail.

2. Is it possible to buy a season ticket from BKJ to London Terminals and stop to Farringdon?

A ticket to London Terminals is not valid on any route to/from/crossing Farringdon. The furthest you can go on Thameslink core routes coming from the south is City Thameslink.

3. For some reasons that I don’t understand a season ticket from Shortlands (SRT - one stop before BKJ) to Hampstead (one stop after St Pancras) costs £1,180 instead £1,244. Can I use it to travel from BKJ to ZFD?

Of course, assuming that you mean West Hampstead?

Shortlands - West Hampstead Route Not Underground is valid going Shortlands - Beckenham Junction - Herne Hill - then via Thameslink - Farringdon - St Pancras - West Hampstead, amongst others, so you can start/stop short anywhere en route with a season ticket.

4. Can I buy a season ticket from SRT to London Terminals and use it to other routes (for example to go to London Victoria or London Bridge) from BKJ?

Thank you very much for your help!

I am unable to check at the moment but I am sure others can look it up for you.

 

[LexyBoy]

It's not valid to City Thameslink, only as far as Blackfriars.

NRE disagrees on that point. Not that City Thameslink is much more useful than Blackfriars, being a minute's walk up the road.

 

[bb21]

It's not valid to City Thameslink, only as far as Blackfriars.

Not sure which part you are responding to, but I can't think of any ticket that is valid to Blackfriars but not City Thameslink.

The threshold point on Thameslink is Farringdon, with tickets valid to City Thameslink coming from the south or King's Cross/St Pancras coming from the north, and neither at/crossing Farringdon.

 

[soil]

With regards to Shortlands - West Hampstead, this is indeed slightly cheaper than Shortlands - London Terminals, but it's the same price as Beckenham Junction - West Hampstead, as indeed is Shortlands - London Terminals priced the same as Beck Jn - London Terminals, which isn't especially surprising.

Shortlands is a part of the Bromley South routeing group, and has different permitted routes to Beckenham Junction.

The permitted route to West Hampstead is again 'not underground', and this is either:

Clapham Junction - West Hampstead
or
Blackfriars - West Hampstead Thameslink (which is via St Pancras)

For this reason, a Beckenham Junction - West Hampstead Stations season is more flexible than Beckenham Junction - St Pancras ticket, as well as being cheaper, adding in validity:

Beckenham Junction - Clapham Junction
Clapham Junction - West Hampstead (via Olympia and Willesden Junction)
St Pancras - West Hampstead


As regards a ticket from Beckenham Junction vs Shortlands, the Shortlands ticket is additionally valid Crystal Palace - East Croydon, and East Croydon - Victoria.

It's otherwise AFAICT, pretty much identical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure which part you are responding to, but I can't think of any ticket that is valid to Blackfriars but not City Thameslink.

The threshold point on Thameslink is Farringdon, with tickets valid to City Thameslink coming from the south or King's Cross/St Pancras coming from the north, and neither at/crossing Farringdon.

Hmm, City Thameslink not included on the relevant maps (cf. London - Brighton, which does), but I think you are right that in practice it would be accepted, certainly the season ticket calculator says so...

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/tickets

Although that says it's valid to Vauxhall, which is definitely not a mapped route, so.....

 

[bb21]

The permitted route to West Hampstead is again 'not underground', and this is either:

It will be.

There is in theory no season ticket with cross-London markers as passengers are expected to use Travelcards in these cases.

 

[soil]

It will be.

There is in theory no season ticket with cross-London markers as passengers are expected to use Travelcards in these cases.

It will be what?

There are season tickets with cross-London markers, such as Peterborough - Walthamstow Central,

which according to a site such as this one:

http://tickets.southernrailway.com/sn/en/JourneyPlanning/SeasonMixingDeck

is valid between Finsbury Park and Walthamstow Central on the underground

 

[bb21]

It will be what?

There are season tickets with cross-London markers, such as Peterborough - Walthamstow Central,

which according to a site such as this one:

http://tickets.southernrailway.com/sn/en/JourneyPlanning/SeasonMixingDeck

is valid between Finsbury Park and Walthamstow Central on the underground

They are not supposed to exist. A small number might exist due to local or historical arrangements however in theory on the whole they should not exist.

 

[barrykas]

They are not supposed to exist. A small number might exist due to local or historical arrangements however in theory on the whole they should not exist.

Looking at BRFares, this seems to apply between two clusters, more specifically:

R608 - Peterborough, Manea, March and Whittlesea

AND

R605 - Most of London Overground and most ex-WAGN stations!

Priced by East Coast, and route "+ Any Permitted". £172.20 a week in Standard, £292.70 a week in First.

If memory serves, there are also a number of "through London" Travelcards priced by Southeastern (and possibly Southern) in the fares database as well, but those are specifically done as Travelcards, and thus "routed" London Zones 1-6.

 

[bb21]

Yes, AFAIK passengers are supposed to be issued "customised Travelcards" if cross-London transfer is required, some of which obviously already exist in the database with pre-defined fares.

 

[30907]

1. a Beck Jn - St P season is ...is valid on permitted routes to Blackfriars, on the relevant maps.

These are:
LK and LL: http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=61
SL http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=98

A Beckenham Junction - St Pancras season is therefore valid:

Beckenham Junction - Herne Hill
Herne Hill - Tulse Hill
Tulse Hill - Peckham Rye
Peckham Rye - Victoria
Peckham Rye - Blackfriars
Herne Hill - Victoria
Herne Hill - Blackfriars
Beckenham Junction - Petts Wood
Petts Wood - Orpington for interchange purposes only
Bickley - Peckham Rye
Petts Wood - Lewisham
Lewisham - Peckham Rye

plus
Blackfriars - St Pancras

Beck Jn - London Terminals has additional validity as follows:

Hither Green - New Cross
New Cross - London Bridge
London Bridge - Waterloo East
Waterloo East - Charing Cross
Beckenham Junction - Crystal Palace
Crystal Palace - Victoria (via Streatham Hill and Clapham Junction)
London Bridge - Cannon Street

The maps are curious: I would also have expected
Beckenham Jn-Lewisham (agreed, not much use, unless you live towards New Beckenham!)
and
London Br-Blackfriars
to be permitted on both tickets. The second omission seems particularly odd.

 

[barrykas]

Yes, AFAIK passengers are supposed to be issued "customised Travelcards" if cross-London transfer is required, some of which obviously already exist in the database with pre-defined fares.

Correct, though I believe that only works with "ANY PERMITTED" flows, as the route field has to be either "LONDON ZONES 1-6" or "LONDON ZN1-6 +HS", so the ticket wouldn't be able to show a TOC/route restriction as well.

And just for a change, the calculation is actually reasonably simple: Add together the two "out-boundary" Zone 1-6 Travelcard fares and then deduct an "in-boundary" Zone 1-6 Travelcard fare, and hey presto, Robert is your mother's brother.

You can also issue such tickets to the Met line stations in Zones 7-9, with add-ons of £4.80 a week for the Zone 7 stations, £15.60 for Chalfont & Latimer, and £23.40 for Amersham and Chesham, though in such cases you need to name a specific station in the appropriate zone as National Rail ticket machines don't recognise Zones 7-9.

 

[bb21]

Correct, though I believe that only works with "ANY PERMITTED" flows, as the route field has to be either "LONDON ZONES 1-6" or "LONDON ZN1-6 +HS", so the ticket wouldn't be able to show a TOC/route restriction as well.

Agreed, which is why there is a special remark in the Fares Guide regarding this issue. I am not sure how this would work if one of the component Travelcards has a route restriction.

 

[causton]

"ldn z1-6 + sthnonly?"

 

[soil]

The maps are curious: I would also have expected
Beckenham Jn-Lewisham (agreed, not much use, unless you live towards New Beckenham!)
and
London Br-Blackfriars
to be permitted on both tickets. The second omission seems particularly odd.

Well, it maybe is actually.

Shortest route Beckenham Junction - St Pancras is shortest route to Beck Jn - Blackfriars


Beck Jn - Herne Hill 4.75
Herne Hill - Blackfriars 4 miles
is 8.75 miles

Or

Beck Jn - New Beckenham 0.75 mles (?)
New Beckenham - London Bridge 7.75
London bridge - Blackfriars 1 mile (?)

9.5 miles

So should be valid under shortest route rule.

I can't really see why you couldn't continue to Farringdon either on a London Terminals ticket, under the shortest route rule, as Blackfriars - Farringdon is 1.25 miles, so there and back would be 2.5 miles?

 

[lc78]

Thanks everybody, your answers are really helpful!
It looks that the best season ticket is Shortlands - West Hampstead according to Soil Which gives me the possibility to stop in Farringdon and in St Pancras (no underground of course) but also to travel to others London stations and it is slightly cheaper.
However, reading the maps is a little bit complicated and I'm not sure where the season ticket can be used. (i.e. Can I go from Shortlands to London Bridge via Catford?)
Is there a web site/software which gives me a clear indication?
Thanks again.

 

[greatkingrat]

There are actually over 1400 flows for season tickets that have a cross london indicator. They range from

7DS BLACKWD BUSLINC - MAIDSTONE STNS (+WARMSTER-SALSBRY) 335.50
to 7DS TOTTENHAM HALE - STRATFORD LONDON (+ANY PERMITTED) 12.30

The latter could be very useful for some people as it is cheaper than the Not Via London ticket (15.50), and the T Hale - London Terminals ticket (22.20).

 

[bb21]

There are actually over 1400 flows for season tickets that have a cross london indicator.

There might be, but how many distinct fares are there of the 1400, bearing in mind many will be in clusters.

 

[telstarbox]

Thanks everybody, your answers are really helpful!
It looks that the best season ticket is Shortlands - West Hampstead according to Soil Which gives me the possibility to stop in Farringdon and in St Pancras (no underground of course) but also to travel to others London stations and it is slightly cheaper.
However, reading the maps is a little bit complicated and I'm not sure where the season ticket can be used. (i.e. Can I go from Shortlands to London Bridge via Catford?)
Is there a web site/software which gives me a clear indication?
Thanks again.

This map should help you:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/London_Rail_Tube_map.pdf

You can go from Shortlands via Catford to London Bridge.

 

[greatkingrat]

That is the number of flows. There are about 40000 distinct station-pairs that have a cross-London season ticket between them.

 

[soil]

Thanks everybody, your answers are really helpful!
It looks that the best season ticket is Shortlands - West Hampstead according to Soil Which gives me the possibility to stop in Farringdon and in St Pancras (no underground of course) but also to travel to others London stations and it is slightly cheaper.
However, reading the maps is a little bit complicated and I'm not sure where the season ticket can be used. (i.e. Can I go from Shortlands to London Bridge via Catford?)
Is there a web site/software which gives me a clear indication?
Thanks again.

The Shortlands - West Hampstead ticket is rather curious, since it is valid from Petts Wood, which is a more expensive ticket. It's valid via Catford as mentioned in my first post. (Bickley to Peckham Rye). Not valid on non-stop trains from Bromley South to Victoria though.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't really see why you couldn't continue to Farringdon either on a London Terminals ticket, under the shortest route rule, as Blackfriars - Farringdon is 1.25 miles, so there and back would be 2.5 miles?

Maybe because Farringdon isn't a London terminal and you can't go beyond the destination on your ticket. There and back would be doubling back, or in the case of a season ticket, two journeys.

 

[bb21]

That is the number of flows. There are about 40000 distinct station-pairs that have a cross-London season ticket between them.

That is certainly more than what I am aware of. Any chance of them being provided in a readable format?

 

[greatkingrat]

That is certainly more than what I am aware of. Any chance of them being provided in a readable format?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArPWS1Zzr49BdHI3Y05sR2NxSnk4d0xvMkJXejlQQlE&usp=sharing

For the clusters (highlighted in green) I have just shown one station from each cluster rather than every possible combination.

 

[bb21]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArPWS1Zzr49BdHI3Y05sR2NxSnk4d0xvMkJXejlQQlE&usp=sharing

For the clusters (highlighted in green) I have just shown one station from each cluster rather than every possible combination.

That's cool. Thanks.

 

[kieron]

Thanks everybody, your answers are really helpful!
It looks that the best season ticket is Shortlands - West Hampstead according to Soil

I don't think it is, given than you've said you're interested in going to Cambridge from time to time. A Shortlands-Oakleigh Park ticket costs the same, and you can then catch the fast King's Cross-Cambridge train with that and an Oakleigh Park-Cambridge "Not via London" ticket.

The Shortlands - West Hampstead ticket is rather curious, since it is valid from Petts Wood, which is a more expensive ticket. It's valid via Catford as mentioned in my first post. (Bickley to Peckham Rye). Not valid on non-stop trains from Bromley South to Victoria though.

Are you sure? The ticket restriction is "not underground", not "Thameslink only". I would have thought it would still be valid by 'bus from Victoria.

 

[soil]

Since when were rail tickets valid on the bus?