London Terminals

[Zerforax]

Hi,

I've purchased an annual season ticket from Hitchin* to London Terminals (not sure why there is an asterisk next to Hitchin on my ticket).

The trip I would like to make is Hitchin --> Kings Cross --> St Pancras --> City Thameslink (and the reverse on the way back).

As City Thameslink is classed as a London Terminal, I see no reason and have had no problems with getting on at City Thameslinks and doing the commute back home.

However this morning the ticket inspector would not allow me to get through at St Pancras say that my ticket doesn't allow me onward travel.

My friend does the same trip but has a Thameslink key card and has no issues with tapping through for those journeys.

I've tried using the routeing information but I still don't feel like I've worked out the answer properly. Any help is much appreciated!

 

[CyrusWuff]

The short version is that journeys to/from/via Farringdon either have to have LU Zone 1 validity or be issued to "London Thameslink" or a named station.

From Hitchin, a season to City Thameslink carries an £8 per week (£320 per year) premium over the one to London Terminals (which is essentially valid to either Kings Cross or Moorgate).

 

[Hadders]

CyrusWuff is correct.

Depends on where exactly you have to be but it’s worth noting that with a Hitchin-London Terminals ticket you can take the Northern or Metropolitan/Circle/H&C lines between Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate although you cannot enter or exit at any intermediate stations (except Old Street).

I work near to Holborn Circus and it takes me about 20 minutes to walk from Kings Cross. Sounds a long time but by the time you’ve factored in crossing to St Pancras, getting downstairs and waiting for a train there’s probably not that much in it. I use Oyster PAYG or contactless for the odd occasion when it’s chucking it down.

 

[Zerforax]

Sounds like I've completely misunderstood what it means by London Terminals then. Why is the National Rail website so poorly written without better explanation?

Yes I don't work far from Holborn Cirus but I feel like it's going to take me longer than 20 minutes to walk from Kings Cross and with winter approaching it's putting me off!

Is it difficult to amend a season ticket once you've purchased it? Although I got it through work with a season ticket loan so maybe more complicated.

I guess I need to stop using it at City Thameslink or do I just wing it since the ticket staff don't seem to care?

 

[Hadders]

I wouldn’t wing it as one day you’ll come a cropper. Seriously it’s not that far to walk down the Grays Inn Road and platforms 0-8 at Kings Cross give you a bit of a head start.

In theory I think any ticket office can do a changeover but @CyrusWuff will be better placed to answer that, I suspect. You want a changeover as it’s done at a pro-rata rate rather than a refund and a new ticket.

As for why Nationalrail.co.uk isn’t clear you’d have to ask them. To be fair rail fares are complex and while we all want things to be simplified it’s inevitable that there’ll be complication when there’s over 2,500 stations that you can travel between at Anytime, Off Peak Single single or return and that’s before you add in Advance fares and special offers. You have come to the right place though as this forum is well known for providing the correct advice and has a range of experts who are happy to assist.

 

[mallard]

As for why Nationalrail.co.uk isn’t clear you’d have to ask them. To be fair rail fares are complex and while we all want things to be simplified it’s inevitable that there’ll be complication when there’s over 2,500 stations that you can travel between at Anytime, Off Peak Single single or return and that’s before you add in Advance fares and special offers.

NationalRail.co.uk is run by the very same (association of) companies that are responsible for the absurdly complicated fares "structure". They don't get a pass on not being able to handle the complexity that they've created, especially when they're quite happy to take passengers to court for failing to do so themselves.

 

[Zerforax]

Thanks. Yes you're right it's not worth the risk.

I think a ticket office will struggle to change since this was issued by Abellio so no doubt I'll need to get in touch with them.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks. Yes you're right it's not worth the risk.

I think a ticket office will struggle to change since this was issued by Abellio so no doubt I'll need to get in touch with them.

Make sure you tell them you want a changeover.

 

[rdwarr]

I did a similar changeover (Stevenage - London Terminals to Stevenage - London Bridge) a few years back at the main ticket office in Kings Cross. They were really helpful, even though it took the best part of an hour!
It's possible that Hitchin to London "Thameslink" will become available next year when direct trains start running.

 

[Hadders]

The Virgin Trains booking office At stevenage is very good in my experience so might be worth considering as it’s local to Hitchin.

 

[pepperpot80]

To polish this one off, a wee note about the asterisk: it's a holdover from the days of APTIS...

An asterisk was placed after names of less than fifteen characters, to prevent fraudulent amendments to station names (for example, CAMBRIDGE * to CAMBRIDGE HEATH)

 

[greyman42]

CyrusWuff is correct.

Depends on where exactly you have to be but it’s worth noting that with a Hitchin-London Terminals ticket you can take the Northern or Metropolitan/Circle/H&C lines between Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate although you cannot enter or exit at any intermediate stations (except Old Street).

I work near to Holborn Circus and it takes me about 20 minutes to walk from Kings Cross. Sounds a long time but by the time you’ve factored in crossing to St Pancras, getting downstairs and waiting for a train there’s probably not that much in it. I use Oyster PAYG or contactless for the odd occasion when it’s chucking it down.

So when I buy a York to London super off peak, is this valid to Moorgate via the Underground ?

 

[rdwarr]

So when I buy a York to London super off peak, is this valid to Moorgate via the Underground ?

Yes, as long as it is issued to "London Terminals".

 

[maniacmartin]

Tickets issued to ‘London Terminals’ that are not season tickets routed HS1 are not valid via Farringdon.

You do not have to get a season ticket changeover done by the Train Operating Company that issued the original ticket (although it is advisable to go to the original TOC). Any staffed ticket office should be able to do this, although your best bet is with larger stations.

I don’t see how having an employer’s loan would complicate this, as you only end up paying the difference if you do a season ticket changeover.

Finally, do not wing it on an invalid ticket, especially after staff have already drawn your attention to its invalidity. You leave yourself open to prosecution under the Railway Byelaws or the more serious Regulation of Railways Act which could result in a criminal record.

 

[alistairlees]

Tickets issued to ‘London Terminals’ that are not season tickets routed HS1 are not valid via Farringdon.

According to National Rail any ticket that is to London Terminals and is "PLUS HIGH SPEED" is valid via Farringdon:

Customers with London Terminals tickets routes "Plus High Speed" are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, London Bridge.

See http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#terminals

 

[Zerforax]

Just to bump my old thread..

How does the Delay Repay work when you have a change over? I've purchased a 7 day ticket from Hitchin to City Thameslink while I sort out my changeover on my annual season ticket (as per my OP query).

So I usually get the 8.35am from Hitchin into London Kings Cross (scheduled to arrive at 9.03) which was delayed today by 20 minutes today (therefore arrived at KGX at 9.23am). Do I just put in the details of this delayed service when applying to Great Northern? Or do I need to factor in the travel to City Thameslink? The latter being a 7 minute journey.

I just aim to jump onto the next train which arrives since it's meant to be regular. Usually I would get the 9.16am London St Pancras to City Thameslink. Oddly when I put in my journey into National Rail website, it thinks I should wait till the 9.34am train at St Pancras (not sure why it thinks I need 31 minutes between arriving at Kings Cross and changing at St Pancras to switch for City Thameslink train). I'm not even sure what train I caught in the end as all the City Thameslink trains were delayed too.

I think the short answer I'm looking for is what do I put in as the "Timetabled Arrival Time" in the Delay Repay Claim form? Do I put the 9.03 arrival into Kings Cross or the 9.25am arrival into City Thameslink?

Also any information on how they calculate the delay in these instances? Was much simpler when I thought I was just looking at a Hitchin to KGX ticket!

Thanks in advance.

 

[swt_passenger]

JOddly when I put in my journey into National Rail website, it thinks I should wait till the 9.34am train at St Pancras (not sure why it thinks I need 31 minutes between arriving at Kings Cross and changing at St Pancras to switch for City Thameslink train).

Two separate stations with a walk between for journey planning purposes. 15 mins (interchange time) to find your way around within each station, and 1 min to cross the road.

 

[adrock1976]

I am surprised that the minimum interchange time between Kings Cross and St Pancras is 31 minutes, bearing in mind they are next door to each other.

Of note, the minimum interchange time between Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street is 30 minutes, which involves a 10 minute walk through city streets.

 

[alistairlees]

I am surprised that the minimum interchange time between Kings Cross and St Pancras is 31 minutes, bearing in mind they are next door to each other.

Of note, the minimum interchange time between Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street is 30 minutes, which involves a 10 minute walk through city streets.

It is indeed 30 minutes, though that's 15 mins at Central, 5 mins walk (or by bus) and 10 mins at Queen Street. For most people though I should imagine it's at least a 5 minute walk, though I managed to run it in much less last Monday!

 

[Hadders]

I am surprised that the minimum interchange time between Kings Cross and St Pancras is 31 minutes, bearing in mind they are next door to each other.

Of note, the minimum interchange time between Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street is 30 minutes, which involves a 10 minute walk through city streets.

You've got to account for someone walking from the country end of platform 0 to the from of one of the EMT platforms. That's not a 5 minute walk.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It is indeed 30 minutes, though that's 15 mins at Central, 5 mins walk (or by bus) and 10 mins at Queen Street. For most people though I should imagine it's at least a 5 minute walk, though I managed to run it in much less last Monday!

I appreciate it's never going to produce a valid itinerary for connections, but nonetheless surely there's a demand for journey planner that includes a 'mad dash' option!

 

[bb21]

There is. www.fastjp.com

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

I have a similar issue as I need to buy an annual season ticket from Brockley to St Pancras Intl. An annual ticket is £728 but how am I supposed to actually travel between the two stations if I can purchase a national rail season ticket which does not permit me to use the Underground (i.e. a travelcard)? There are no details on the page. It states "Please check that the route you have selected is permitted. Information about permitted routes can be found on the National Rail Enquiries ticket types page" but I don't find any more info there. Is an annual gold card like this one valid on Southern only, or transferable to Thameslink as well?

 

[DelW]

I just aim to jump onto the next train which arrives since it's meant to be regular. Usually I would get the 9.16am London St Pancras to City Thameslink. Oddly when I put in my journey into National Rail website, it thinks I should wait till the 9.34am train at St Pancras (not sure why it thinks I need 31 minutes between arriving at Kings Cross and changing at St Pancras to switch for City Thameslink train). I'm not even sure what train I caught in the end as all the City Thameslink trains were delayed too.

I think the short answer I'm looking for is what do I put in as the "Timetabled Arrival Time" in the Delay Repay Claim form? Do I put the 9.03 arrival into Kings Cross or the 9.25am arrival into City Thameslink?

Also any information on how they calculate the delay in these instances? Was much simpler when I thought I was just looking at a Hitchin to KGX ticket!

I would think (subject to correction) that the relevant delay would be the difference between the time you actually arrived at your final destination (City Thameslink), and the time that the journey planner shows you arriving when catching your normal train from Hitchin. In this instance the extended transfer time works against you, as it means that NR is effectively stating an expected arrival time for your journey that is around 18 minutes later than that which is achievable in practice. I think that legally the later time would be deemed to be what NR offered you as its part of the implied contract when you bought the ticket.

It's my belief (again subject to correction) that a delay on an early part of a through journey does not count for repayment if that delay is recovered later in the journey. Thus if my first train is (say) 45 min late, but I have a 55 minute connection time onto the second and so catch that train, I would not be able to make a claim based on the late arrival of the first train.

 

[bb21]

I have a similar issue as I need to buy an annual season ticket from Brockley to St Pancras Intl. An annual ticket is £728 but how am I supposed to actually travel between the two stations if I can purchase a national rail season ticket which does not permit me to use the Underground (i.e. a travelcard)? There are no details on the page. It states "Please check that the route you have selected is permitted. Information about permitted routes can be found on the National Rail Enquiries ticket types page" but I don't find any more info there. Is an annual gold card like this one valid on Southern only, or transferable to Thameslink as well?

During Thameslink core works when direct services between London Bridge and Blackfriars are suspended, there are arrangements in place for ticket acceptance on alternative routes.

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/thameslink-programme/alternative-routes

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

During Thameslink core works when direct services between London Bridge and Blackfriars are suspended, there are arrangements in place for ticket acceptance on alternative routes.

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/travel-information/thameslink-programme/alternative-routes

Thanks. I would expect to be purchasing a Southern railway season ticket - not sure if this is true - but there is also a Southern version of the ticket acceptance map here: http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/ticket-acceptance

 

[bb21]

Both will apply and you can use whichever service listed at your convenience.