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London to Sicily by train?

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Greetings,

A friend has asked me to come up with a train trip from London to Sicily, (Palermo.)

Can anyone help to find the best option, which avoids nights in hotels en route if possible?

Thanks.
 
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superalbs

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Now that the Thellō has ceased operation, it may be a bit harder to avoid hotels.

Perhaps try a Eurostar to Brussels, then Nightjet down to Wien, then another Nightjet to Milano, and finally the InterCity Notte on the ferry to Palermo.

There's probably a more efficient route using some day trains, but they escape my mind at the moment.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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My version in 2017 was to fly Easyjet to Naples (hotel), and then catch the Rome-Sicily day IC train from Naples at around 0950.
Train runs down the west coast and shunts on to the ferry San Giovanni-Messina, and then the two halves go on to Palermo (1925) or (my option) Catania (1725).
Next day I also fitted in a circular trip round Etna (on the Circumetnea railway), and a trip down the coast to Siracusa, a really nice ancient town.
Flew back from Catania, passing over Stromboli and with views of Vesuvius off Naples - 3 volcanoes in one day.

You could of course start from Rome on the same train at 0730.
There's a later day train from Rome/Naples, and a sleeper from Milan at 2010 (21 hours to Palermo arr 1655).
Trains can be very busy at holiday periods, but no problems on off-peak dates.
Long-distance trains easily booked via Trenitalia (e-tickets).
 

AlbertBeale

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When I did this trip (to Syracuse actually, not Palermo) a few years back, I left London in the morning for Paris, and changed there for a train to Milan, arriving late afternoon. Then, after a meal in Milan, I got on a through sleeper to Sicily [with portions for both Syracuse and Palermo]; the train got to southern Italy in the morning, and it (the train) was ferried across to Sicily around lunch-time and continued on (each half to the different destination). So - London to final destination in Sicily with only two changes of train; cost c £100 (including the bed in a two-person sleeper compartment) with advance bookings for all 3 legs. Total journey time 30+ hours, though all very comfortable (lunch on the Paris-Milan train was very pleasant too). And the morning coffee I was served on the sleeper was as good as I've had anywhere in Italy!!

Timetable changes might mean connections are different currently, so this might not be so easy at the moment; and in any case you might want to do a more leisurely trip with breaks of journey. But providing you include at least one leg on a sleeper, you can avoid hotels. Given that the highest-speed Italian services don't have new fast lines in the very south (nor on Sicily!), it makes sense to have the/a sleeper leg near the Sicily end of the journey.

But you could of course take a sleeper to Italy (from, eg, Switzerland, perhaps having travelled to there from London during the day), and do the journey from, eg, Rome, to Sicily all in daylight the next day. And, as has been suggested above, you could include more than one overnight on the rails, and spread the whole journey out. It all depends on preferences - overall journey time, overall cost, whether you want to stop and spend time in places en route, and so on. But the idea of going from Britain to Sicily by train is really a doddle - it would never occur to me to consider flying to anywhere as close.
 

Ken H

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We did this some years ago, but we didnt shun hotels. Warwick Parkway - Marylebone. Hotel in London. Early Eurostar from Waterloo to Lille. Hours wait (Got a bag of grub from carrefour next to the station). Then Lille - Nice TGV. Hotel in Nice. Then train to Firenze where we spent 2 nights. Italian Eurostar to Napoli, - another 2 nights, and a side trip to Pompeii - used the Circumvesuvio narrow gauge local trains. Then the morning express to Palermo. But they chucked us off at Rosario onto a bus, and had to walk on and off the ferry. Train to Palermo. We had a 5 days in 14 ticket for Italian trains which was good value. But supplements for inter city trains, and for the Italian Eurostar. Good trip. Only bad bit was Ryanair back to Stanstead.
 

erk

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My route last October (also to Syracuse) was:

Day 1:
Morning Eurostar to Brussels
Train to Köln
Sleeper to München

Day 2:
Train to Bologna
Train to Roma
Sleeper to Syracusa

Day 3:
Arrive late morning

The schedule allowed time for meals at change points (most of the trains have limited facilities). This also builds in some allowance for delays.
 

AlbertBeale

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To add to my previous reply...

For anyone not having done this sort of trip before, I'd recommend the approach I've taken in the past. Buy the latest European Rail Timetable (you can pick it up in Stanfords - and probably elsewhere? - in London, and no doubt at similar places in other towns; or ERT will post it out); and get the European Rail Map they publish too. Then just play around and get some familiarity with what seems possible and with which routings take your fancy,

Once you're getting towards a preferred plan or plans, go to the Seat61 website and look up the sort of routes you're interested in to get a reality check if needed(!) - the experienced take of Seat61 tends, in my view, to be a bit on the cautious side in terms of what connections are worth risking; but it's nevertheless useful to err on the side of caution if you're not a regular traveller, especially since many international tickets give you no protection if a late arrival messes up a connection.

Seat61 is also great for advising on where and when and how it's best to book tickets for journeys through particular parts of Europe, and what reservations are sensible, and so on.

So I'd say use the ERT and Seat61 (and wise advice from this forum of course...), and you won't go far wrong.

And lastly, if you're not committed to heading to Sicily (though why not? - it's a great place), and want other ideas for fairly leisurely European rail journeys (as opposed to just getting in the most efficient way from A to B), then get the latest Euope by Rail book, which is full of mouth-watering ideas.
 

JB_B

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Are they committed to train-only or just trying to avoid flying? If the latter, then also consider the ferries to Palermo from Genoa, Civitavecchia, Naples.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Are they committed to train-only or just trying to avoid flying? If the latter, then also consider the ferries to Palermo from Genoa, Civitavecchia, Naples.
When I put London-Palermo into the viamichelin (road) route planner, it returned those ferry routes unless I specified Rome and Messina as waypoints.
They save a lot of time in the local crossing to Messina and the westerly route onwards to Palermo.
But long-distance ferries are often awkwardly timed, and infrequent (not necessarily daily, or at the same time each day).
There are ferry times in the European Rail Timetable too.

The distance (by Channel Tunnel and then by land) is about 2500 km, which is similar to London-Kyiv and London-Bucharest.
It's a *long* way.
I've done all these rail journeys as multiple stages at different times, but not as single end-to-end trips.
 
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JB_B

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When I put London-Palermo into the viamichelin (road) route planner, it returned those ferry routes unless I specified Rome and Messina as waypoints.
They save a lot of time in the local crossing to Messina and the westerly route onwards to Palermo.
But long-distance ferries are often awkwardly timed, and infrequent (not necessarily daily, or at the same time each day).
There are ferry times in the European Rail Timetable too.

The distance (by Channel Tunnel and then by land) is about 2500 km, which is similar to London-Kyiv and London-Bucharest.
It's a *long* way.
I've done all these rail journeys as multiple stages at different times, but not as single end-to-end trips.


Yes, it's a long way to go.

The only time we did this without hotel stops we did night 1 on Paris-Rome in a 6-berth couchette ( no longer an option, sadly ) and then night 2 on the Naples-Palermo ferry ( so access to a shower in our cabin was welcome! )

More recently we've done more or less what @AlbertBeale suggests - afternoon TGV Paris-Turin,stopped overnight and then sleeper from Genoa to Syracuse next evening.
 

Iskra

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It’s a bit of a detour to avoid hotels these days.

Is there a reason you are avoiding hotels? If you book it right you could probably do it with just one hotel depending on your UK location, probably in Milan or Paris. Hotels are more comfortable and have better amenities than sleeper trains. Remember, the Italian night trains are basic and lack even catering.

I’ve done the toe of Italy to Sheffield and did;

Reggio Calabria-Rome on the IC, Rome-Milan on the Frecciarossa. Night in Milan. Early TGV to Paris, then Eurostar and EMT up to Sheffield all in one day.

The main thing is to allow enough time for connections, especially from the Trenitalia Night Train which can be delayed easily.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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Another option is to use the new Nightjet Amsterdam to Innsbruck service, picking it up at Bonn (annoyingly it does not call at Cologne southbound). Eurostar to Brussels, Thalys / ICE to Cologne and RE to Bonn. From Innsbruck day journey over the spectacular Brenner Pass to Bologna and then Frecciarossa to Naples. Sleeper from there direct to Palermo. This has the advantage of decent day trains with refreshment facilities - the Milan to Palermo sleeper has none, and can be bit of an ordeal.
 

deltic

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German railways journey planner is a great way to spend a couple of hours planning journeys across Europe https://www.bahn.com/en. It suggests Eurostar to Paris, Paris to Turin, sleeper from Turin to Salerno, train from Salerno to Palermo -a 34hr journey if you want to do it one go
 

Cheshire Scot

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We did Stockport to Taormina and return in 1997 but to avoid any tight connections which might kybosh the whole plan if missed (and in the event 4 out of a total of 9 trains used were between 20 and 53 minutes late albeit we did arrive right time in Taormina), we included one hotel night in each direction rather then two nights on trains.
Stockport London Paris (hotel) TGV to Turin then sleeper to Taormina - four trains
Taormina sleeper to Turin onwards to Lyon (hotel) then Lille London Stockport - five trains
We only had one planned connection of less than two or three hours, on the way home in Lille, and we (and around thirty others admittedly probably on simpler journeys) missed it!

A wonderful travel experience.

The itineraries suggested in posts 6, 13 and 14 all look good to me but as others have noted there are many other options.

Any reason for wanting to avoid a night in a hotel? Although extending the A to B journey time for us to circa 50 hours (from Stockport), spending around 15 hours at an intermediate point provided us with a bit of a break, a leisurely meal and a night in a stationary bed.
 
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30907

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It is possible (assuming a tolerably normal timetable) to do the trip with one sleeper - Munich to Rome - but it means a very late arrival in Palermo and an early start from London, not to mention a tight connection in Brussels. I think I would take a more leisurely option, and allow 2 nights an route.

I've been looking at options myself (to join an escorted rail-based trip) - and the one-nightone-night option doesn't work from Yorkshire however you try.

PS I prefer ensuite sleepers, being of that age, which rules out the services from Northern Italy unfortunately - and I would opt for the train ferry.

PPS The Genoa-Palermo ferry seems to run at civilised times, but not every night in low season - whereas the ferries from Naples turf you out rather early.
 
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Thank you all for the suggestions and advice. Trying to help "friends of friends" is not an easy task!

I have passed on each comment above, as well as mentioning seat 61, so they now have plenty to go at. ;)
 

YorkshireBear

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Man in seat 61 is the non train enthusiasts best friend when it comes to this sort of thing.

A trip I'm hoping to do myself.
 

AlbertBeale

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Yes, it's a long way to go.

The only time we did this without hotel stops we did night 1 on Paris-Rome in a 6-berth couchette ( no longer an option, sadly ) and then night 2 on the Naples-Palermo ferry ( so access to a shower in our cabin was welcome! )

More recently we've done more or less what @AlbertBeale suggests - afternoon TGV Paris-Turin,stopped overnight and then sleeper from Genoa to Syracuse next evening.

Yes - that's similar, with the addition of 24 hours in northern Italy en route, getting the sleeper south the night after you arrive rather than moving on the same the evening you reach Italy as I did.

In general, arriving in Italy from that (Frejus tunnel) direction, Turin can be as good as Milan for switching to internal Italian trains. Milan has more connections, but many links do run from Turin*. Also, if you've heading onwards on a high-speed Italian train, then you often get more connection leeway in Turin, since the Italian train from there will itself reach Milan faster than the international train does that leg. Another advantage of Turin as a staging point is that you're virtually certain to have a same-station connection (Porta Susa), whilst changing in Milan you'll often have to switch between Porta Garibaldi and Centrale.

[*Though not direct sleepers to Sicily, only as far as Naples/Salerno. You have to move on to Milan or Genoa to get a through sleeper all the way to the island.]

I tend to prefer Turin to Milan as a staging post if I'm breaking my journey for a day or more on my way to or from elsewhere in Italy - Turin is (I think) under-rated as an interesting place to spend time in, and I find it more "manageable" than Milan.

The downside of a Turin connection, if you only have a limited time between trains, is that PS station is rather a cold, modernist station, without nice places for a meal. On the other hand, I've eaten quite well at Milano Centrale. (What's left of the historic PS station - Turin's first railway station - can be seen alongside the new one.)
 

30907

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Unless I was pressed for time, I would be inclined to break the journey for a night or two.
 

dutchflyer

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Note that as for now-and probably in the near future, Sicily has even more stringent covid-testing etc rules as the rest of Italy already has for now. This also applies for Italians going there.
The general advice of Paris_Milano-then overnight has now to be done with another change in Roma-as the overnight is restricted in its long length of running. But roughly still to same timings.
 

Iskra

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Note that as for now-and probably in the near future, Sicily has even more stringent covid-testing etc rules as the rest of Italy already has for now. This also applies for Italians going there.
The general advice of Paris_Milano-then overnight has now to be done with another change in Roma-as the overnight is restricted in its long length of running. But roughly still to same timings.
In theory. The rules vs reality in Italy, particularly Southern Italy are often very different.

What additional testing is required? I’m not aware of any. I’m flying to Catania in two weeks and getting the train/ferry onto the mainland.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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tend to prefer Turin to Milan as a staging post if I'm breaking my journey for a day or more on my way to or from elsewhere in Italy - Turin is (I think) under-rated as an interesting place to spend time in, and I find it more "manageable" than Milan.

The downside of a Turin connection, if you only have a limited time between trains, is that PS station is rather a cold, modernist station, without nice places for a meal. On the other hand, I've eaten quite well at Milano Centrale. (What's left of the historic PS station - Turin's first railway station - can be seen alongside the new one.)
I haven't been, but I imagine Porta Nuova is a better place to break a journey in Turin.
All the main domestic trains seem to start from there, and it's right in the city centre.
 

AlbertBeale

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I haven't been, but I imagine Porta Nuova is a better place to break a journey in Turin.
All the main domestic trains seem to start from there, and it's right in the city centre.

Yes - nearly all domestics starting or finishing in Turin use PN (though I think some local service don't), but long-distance ones heading to most places in the rest of Italy have to go through PS too. And the internationals, being through services, don't go to PN (which would require reversing), only to PS. So the latter is the same-station interchange between internationals and most long-distance national services.

And yes, PN is a bit more central - and more like a major city terminus [which it is after all!] - and hence has a better mix of food facilities on the spot.

However, the point I was making is that if you've just got time between trains for a meal at a same-station interchange, then Turin PS is a bit of a pain compared to Milano Centrale. If you've got time to leave the station and find your way around, then there are plentiful facilities quite near PS. And indeed the station itself isn't really outside the central area of the city, and is as close to the major pedestrianised area, and to many of the sights, as PN is. (Certainly, I can find my way from PS to my favourite Turin cake-and-coffee shop almost blindfolded... sigh.)
 

Mainline421

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It is possible (assuming a tolerably normal timetable) to do the trip with one sleeper - Munich to Rome - but it means a very late arrival in Palermo and an early start from London, not to mention a tight connection in Brussels. I think I would take a more leisurely option, and allow 2 nights an route.

I've been looking at options myself (to join an escorted rail-based trip) - and the one-nightone-night option doesn't work from Yorkshire however you try.

PS I prefer ensuite sleepers, being of that age, which rules out the services from Northern Italy unfortunately - and I would opt for the train ferry.

PPS The Genoa-Palermo ferry seems to run at civilised times, but not every night in low season - whereas the ferries from Naples turf you out rather early.
A better option if you're not stopping off on the way would be to get a 07:00-ish Eurostar from London to Paris, 10:40 TGV to Milan (arriving 17:50) then take the 20:10 sleeper straight to Palermo.

Much faster and simpler than many sugestions here and just enough time for dinner in Milan @OldandRambling. Although currently Eurostar aren't running early enough trains from London, these should be back soon unless the journey is within the next few weeks.
 

AlbertBeale

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A better option if you're not stopping off on the way would be to get a 07:00-ish Eurostar from London to Paris, 10:40 TGV to Milan (arriving 17:50) then take the 20:10 sleeper straight to Palermo.

Much faster and simpler than many sugestions here and just enough time for dinner in Milan @OldandRambling. Although currently Eurostar aren't running early enough trains from London, these should be back soon unless the journey is within the next few weeks.

Indeed - this is the journey I made that I referred to back in Post No 4! (Except I was on the half of the sleeper from Milan which went to Syracuse, not Palermo.)

However I think I had to leave London a bit earlier than you suggest in order to catch that Paris-Milan train ... your timings here don't seem to allow for the time difference between the UK and France - either that, or you had a fast motorbike to get between Nord and Lyon stations in Paris.
 

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The A20 Autostrada from Messina to Buonfornello (near Palermo) holds the world record for a motorway with the greatest distance in tunnels. At 183 km long, 59 km of it are spent in tunnels. Just imagine driving the full length of the M62 motorway and spending one third of your time in tunnels! Does the direct train from Messina to Palermo also spend a lot of time in tunnels?
 

Ken H

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The A20 Autostrada from Messina to Buonfornello (near Palermo) holds the world record for a motorway with the greatest distance in tunnels. At 183 km long, 59 km of it are spent in tunnels. Just imagine driving the full length of the M62 motorway and spending one third of your time in tunnels! Does the direct train from Messina to Palermo also spend a lot of time in tunnels?
long tunnel under Etna.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There must be 20-odd rail tunnels along the north coast of Sicily to Palermo, but the two big ones are 12.8km straight out of Messina, and one of 4.6km at Tindan.
Much of the route is single track and hugs the coast, while the road runs further inland and has much bigger/longer tunnels.

Bologna-Firenze takes the prize for longest domestic rail tunnels in Italy I think.
The 1930s Direttissima has 27km of tunnels (one of which is 18.5km) in its 97km overall length.
The new 2009 AV line has 73.8km of tunnels (maximum 18.7km) in its 78.5km.
(The original mountain line via Pistoia is 132km).
 
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