London Travelcards at risk

[mangyiscute]

On a related note, I've always wondered why there's no policy (as far as I'm aware of anyway) for being able to touch out perhaps up to 5 minutes after touching in at the same station - before, I have touched in only to find a train is delayed etc so then I want to take a bus, but I am still charged a fare.

 

[Starmill]

On a related note, I've always wondered why there's no policy (as far as I'm aware of anyway) for being able to touch out perhaps up to 5 minutes after touching in at the same station - before, I have touched in only to find a train is delayed etc so then I want to take a bus, but I am still charged a fare.

This is automatically resolved in some cases, for the reason you point out, i.e. someone goes in through gates, sees their train is cancelled or disrupted and decides to go back out again. I think it may be less than 5 minutes however.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem is when you have stations which only have standalone validators, as they can be used both to touch in and touch out. There are various rules as to when consecutive touches are joined up and when they're not, but the easiest course of action is simply to avoid touching out and back in (in quick succession) at such stations.

...or to find a nearby bus to touch in and break the journey.

If you're touching out and back in at a station with a gateline, that should be absolutely fine - the gates are set directionally so they know that you're touching out and then in.

There is a need to be careful at pink reader stations, stations with an out of station interchange between multiple gatelines and nearby stations with an out of station interchange.

You're only obliged to touch out before reaching the maximum journey time. If you're doing a 'bashing' trip it will often be cheaper to touch out and back in at a lower numbered Zone.

Yes, although Oyster allows any revenue person checking to see where you touched in so might lead to questions (although there is no rule against circular journeys other than the maximum journey time). I dont think this happens with Contactless where they just see that the card is valid.

For instance, I wonder what a revenue official would make of someone travelling between Shenfield and Liverpool Street having touched an Oyster card in at Stratford.

The point is that Contactless gives more opportunity for 'bashing' but a lot more skillful thought about how to manage touching in and out.

 

[CyrusWuff]

On a related note, I've always wondered why there's no policy (as far as I'm aware of anyway) for being able to touch out perhaps up to 5 minutes after touching in at the same station - before, I have touched in only to find a train is delayed etc so then I want to take a bus, but I am still charged a fare.

There is a policy on that, which is documented here but also quoted below for ease:

Same station exits

If you touch contactless (card or device) or an Oyster card on a yellow card reader when you enter a station, and then touch out to exit it within a short period of time, you'll be charged a same station exit:

• Between 0 - 2 minutes: a maximum fare. If you re-enter the same or a different station within 45 minutes, you'll be refunded. This doesn't apply if you take a bus or tram before re-entering a station
• Between 2 - 30 minutes: minimum pay as you go fare from that station
• More than 30 minutes: we'll assume two separate journeys have been made and both will be incomplete. You'll be charged two maximum fares

If it's not resolved automatically, you need to request a refund either online or by calling TfL Customer Services.

 

[Meerkat]

You can also be reasonably sure that RDG would lay the blame for the associated price increases squarely at TfL's door.

Why would that bother the Mayor? Can't he tell his voters he is ending their subsidy of out of towners?

It won't go down well with Tory MPs in the shires whose constituents will end up paying significant price increases, especially for leisure travel.

It could be shroud waving - if the government don't pay up we have to hit the home counties folk, to get their MPs to have a word in TfLs favour.

 

[[.n]]

Two things not mentioned - that I know I used a lot based on a Zone 1-2 1st Class Travelcard

1) is that paper travelcards for whatever zone they cover for NR/Tube cover bus travel in any zone
2) Paper Travelcards allow 1st Class and Std Class options

 

[Watershed]

...or to find a nearby bus to touch in and break the journey.

That's an option, albeit not a particularly convenient one (and a lot of bus drivers/passengers would be wondering why you're getting off straight after touching in).

There is a need to be careful at pink reader stations, stations with an out of station interchange between multiple gatelines and nearby stations with an out of station interchange.

Indeed. But if just touching out and straight back in at the same gateline there should be no issues.

Yes, although Oyster allows any revenue person checking to see where you touched in so might lead to questions (although there is no rule against circular journeys other than the maximum journey time). I dont think this happens with Contactless where they just see that the card is valid.

For instance, I wonder what a revenue official would make of someone travelling between Shenfield and Liverpool Street having touched an Oyster card in at Stratford.

The point is that Contactless gives more opportunity for 'bashing' but a lot more skillful thought about how to manage touching in and out.

True, however for anyone with a Railcard (other than a Network/Family/Two Together Railcard), they would likely save on Oyster. It may even be cheaper for them to get a paper Travelcard (for as long as they last!).

 

[bramling]

That's an option, albeit not a particularly convenient one (and a lot of bus drivers/passengers would be wondering why you're getting off straight after touching in).


Indeed. But if just touching out and straight back in at the same gateline there should be no issues.


True, however for anyone with a Railcard (other than a Network/Family/Two Together Railcard), they would likely save on Oyster. It may even be cheaper for them to get a paper Travelcard (for as long as they last!).

I suppose this could lead to some interesting situations for enthusiasts, who won’t always be doing “typical” journeys. To be fair one can’t really expect the fares system to be setup for niche uses, but it does demonstrate the inherent flexibility and simplicity of the Travelcard.

It’s a can of worms though, as even if Oyster were implemented for the whole London area it still presents problems for journeys which overlap.

The fact that the paper Travelcard has lasted this long into the smart card world suggests it does still serve a purpose.

 

[Dent]

You can get a paper tfL services only travelcard for the exact same price as a normal travelcard which is a con.

Where are these sold? I remember there used to be something called an LT Card which was like a travelcard but for TfL services only, but I seem to recall they were withdrawn some time in the 2000s. This is the first I have heard of them still being available, and if they are the same price as a travelcard then there is no point buying one.

 

[matt_world2004]

Where are these sold? I remember there used to be something called an LT Card which was like a travelcard but for TfL services only, but I seem to recall they were withdrawn some time in the 2000s. This is the first I have heard of them still being available, and if they are the same price as a travelcard then there is no point buying one.

I believe at travel information centres only. It was called something like an explorer pass or leisure pass

 

[zero]

If you're touching out and back in at a station with a gateline, that should be absolutely fine - the gates are set directionally so they know that you're touching out and then in.

The problem is when you have stations which only have standalone validators, as they can be used both to touch in and touch out. There are various rules as to when consecutive touches are joined up and when they're not, but the easiest course of action is simply to avoid touching out and back in (in quick succession) at such stations.

A gateline is not guaranteed to be fine. If it's set to continuation exit, and the subsequent journey results in an illogical combination the system may get confused.

If I know I'm reaching the cap and the next trip may be illogical (particularly returning to the same station I just travelled from), I will always try to break an OSI on a bus

 

[Class800]

There is a policy on that, which is documented here but also quoted below for ease:


If it's not resolved automatically, you need to request a refund either online or by calling TfL Customer Services.

I have two examples from experience - both at Kings Cross St Pancras complex!

1. I entered the underground through an entrance that led onto the Circle and Hammersmith and City lines, and had to pass a gateline again to get to the Victoria Line - I told staff - in those days there were ticket offices, and a refund was processed, but it wasn't automatic
2. Recently, I entered St Pancras International and went down to the Thameslink platforms but realised immediately there was no train to London Bridge for a really long time (it was gone 10pm), so went back up and into the Northern line at Kings Cross St Pancras. I got a zero fare same station exit.

It does say on the site https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/exceeded-maximum-journey-time only 3 maximum fare refunds will be given per month - a bit harsh I think if it's due to broken down trains

 

[Envy123]

I’m torn.

On the one hand, I do prefer using ITSO to get to London and use contactless for the tube if necessary. On the other hand, this could hike prices up for commuters needing to use the tube 5 days a week.

 

[boiledbeans2]

For instance, I wonder what a revenue official would make of someone travelling between Shenfield and Liverpool Street having touched an Oyster card in at Stratford.

I just did that recently for the non-PRM Class 321 bashing. No one checked.

Also recently, I touched in on the trams at Morden Road, travelled east to Mitcham Junction, got off, immediately boarded a tram heading west back to Wimbledon (without another touch).
There were revenue staff onboard the tram from Mitcham Junction to Wimbledon, but they were just standing there doing nothing. Once they got to Morden Road, they started checking the tickets. I was the first to be checked because I was all the way at the front. They didn't say anything about my strange journey.

 

[Bikeman78]

I just did that recently for the non-PRM Class 321 bashing. No one checked.

Also recently, I touched in on the trams at Morden Road, travelled east to Mitcham Junction, got off, immediately boarded a tram heading west back to Wimbledon (without another touch).
There were revenue staff onboard the tram from Mitcham Junction to Wimbledon, but they were just standing there doing nothing. Once they got to Morden Road, they started checking the tickets. I was the first to be checked because I was all the way at the front. They didn't say anything about my strange journey.

On the underground I've only been checked on a train maybe three or four times in 20 years. Hopefully the paper travelcard will last a few more years.

 

[Wolfie]

Not impressed with these proposals. When I visit London I always buy an off peak Travelcard from my local Thameslink station. When in London I travel mostly by tube. If Travelcards are withdrawn for TfL travel I will switch to using NR service in London and where not available, I'll use my bus pass on the buses so Khan won't be getting any of my money.

Well l live in London and my council tax is going up for years. Let the AHs who voted for BoZo pay part of the cost of his petty crap because Sadiq beat his fellow party animal....

I had my way far more of the burden would go on those from outside London.

 

[BluePenguin]

Not impressed with these proposals. When I visit London I always buy an off peak Travelcard from my local Thameslink station. When in London I travel mostly by tube. If Travelcards are withdrawn for TfL travel I will switch to using NR service in London and where not available, I'll use my bus pass on the buses so Khan won't be getting any of my money.

Although why not use oyster instead? That is the question. With the exception of Thameslink it’s not very easy or possible to use national rail to get across London anyway

 

[miklcct]

Although why not use oyster instead? That is the question. With the exception of Thameslink it’s not very easy or possible to use national rail to get across London anyway

When Elizabeth Line operates getting across London will be much easier using National Rail alone.

 

[BluePenguin]

When Elizabeth Line operates getting across London will be much easier using National Rail alone.

That is true, although whether there will be an increased cost to use it remains to be seen. I assume the Maltese cross will allow you to use Crossrail

Personally I will always use Thameslink if it is running over the northern line. I know how other people feel

 

[Watershed]

That is true, although whether there will be an increased cost to use it remains to be seen. I assume the Maltese cross will allow you to use Crossrail

Personally I will always use Thameslink if it is running over the northern line. I know how other people feel

It will certainly be valid to cross London on a Maltese Cross ticket, as Thameslink is now. As it's both a TfL and a National Rail service (not that TfL would admit it!) it offers the "best of both worlds" in terms of to PAYG fares - being 'compatible' with both LU scale and NR scale fares/routes.

Due to the above, I'm not aware of any journeys that it will make more expensive, though there are a few that arguably should assume the use of Crossrail - for example Romford to East Croydon, or Elstree to Whitechapel.

 

[Haywain]

though there are a few that arguably should assume the use of Crossrail - for example Romford to East Croydon, or Elstree to Whitechapel.

In theory, those and many similar journeys could have additional fares routed 'Not underground' but I don't think that will happen.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I assume the Maltese cross will allow you to use Crossrail

It will, but that depends on this agreement being maintained at least. Otherwise it's an Underground fare so we're back to the original question. I don't think Travelcards are really at risk. If they are, then it's a damning reflection on the quality of our politicians. Which other major city in the world would be considering removal of an all-modes ticket? If the financial settlement isn't right, change it. If necessary, make all Travelcards Oyster or ITSO so that the operator share can be tracked better.

 

[317 forever]

Raising the Oyster deposit to £7 is simply wrong. Even the current £5 is already difficult to justify when paper tickets are priced so high. Public transport has to remain accessible to the poorest in society; not all of them will have contactless cards (or even a bank account) and not all of them will have Oyster cards.

TfL also won't be able to entirely rid itself of magstripe readers unless it also withdraws from all National Rail interavailability agreements. Which would cause significant inconvenience on some flows, to say the least.

It also seems pointless raising the deposit as people can use existing contactless cards instead of Oyster cards.

 

[Non Multi]

Although why not use oyster instead? That is the question. With the exception of Thameslink it’s not very easy or possible to use national rail to get across London anyway

North of the Thames maybe, but South is a simple walk from Waterloo East to Waterloo if you want East-West zone 1 using National Rail.

 

[317 forever]

I suppose this could lead to some interesting situations for enthusiasts, who won’t always be doing “typical” journeys. To be fair one can’t really expect the fares system to be setup for niche uses, but it does demonstrate the inherent flexibility and simplicity of the Travelcard.

It’s a can of worms though, as even if Oyster were implemented for the whole London area it still presents problems for journeys which overlap.

The fact that the paper Travelcard has lasted this long into the smart card world suggests it does still serve a purpose.

In 2018 I forgot to take my Oystercard with me to London for the day. It was handy to be able to buy a paper Travelcard. It is nice that they refund us for unactivated top-ups to Oystercards.

 

[JonathanH]

Which other major city in the world would be considering removal of an all-modes ticket? If the financial settlement isn't right, change it. If necessary, make all Travelcards Oyster or ITSO so that the operator share can be tracked better.

They are considering getting rid of the paper travelcard ticket, not daily capping. They are therefore not considering removal of an all-modes ticket, just moving it onto an electronic platform, exactly as you suggest. The issue is that outside London, there isn't integration with that daily capping process (and even where there is integration there is a dubious practice of charging more for extension fares than the price from that location to the first zone 6 station). However, where else has the multi-modal ticket for the major city built into the journey from outside that city?

The view has been expressed in this discussion that almost everyone using a travelcard makes just two underground journeys from the terminal station to and from a central London destination. The users of this forum are probably atypical in making more use of their travelcards to explore further.

There are certainly other places where multi-modal tickets have moved solely onto electronic media.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

They are considering getting rid of the paper travelcard ticket, not daily capping.

So, the end of the Travelcard product, leading to higher fares for people travelling from outside London. And I don't suppose it'll matter for a while, but annual capping?

There are certainly other places where multi-modal tickets have moved solely onto electronic media.

I agree, indeed I suggested it as the solution to the doubt about how the revenue should be allocated.

 

[matt_world2004]

Why are people assuming the Elizabeth line will allow national rail tickets in the core?

 

[Man of Kent]

Not impressed with these proposals. When I visit London I always buy an off peak Travelcard from my local Thameslink station. When in London I travel mostly by tube. If Travelcards are withdrawn for TfL travel I will switch to using NR service in London and where not available, I'll use my bus pass on the buses so Khan won't be getting any of my money.

The fare for your concessionary pass will be paid to TfL by the London council covering the location where you board. If other pass holders were to follow this course of action, the withdrawal of the Travelcard could cause increased costs for the boroughs. If someone cares to inform them, perhaps they will lobby for Travelcard's retention too....

 

[BluePenguin]

North of the Thames maybe, but South is a simple walk from Waterloo East to Waterloo if you want East-West zone 1 using National Rail.

That is a good one, or Clapham Junction to Denmark Hill for avoiding zone 1