London Travelcards at risk

[Dent]

Mod Note: Some posts in this thread were originally found here.

It appears that some proposals are now being made as to how to address the TfL funding issues, the most pertinent being withdrawal of paper travelcards, a higher cost to access Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line, fare increases and increases in the eligibility age for free travel.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...-tube-bus-fares-heathrow-premium-b972232.html

What might be interesting is whether withdrawal from the travelcard scheme might mean that the abililty to put a paper ticket through TfL ticket barriers is withdrawn and that removal of cross-London travel on paper tickets is also to abolished.

Withdrawing from the travelcard scheme is a big one. Presumably if TfL withdraw then travelcards would be left only valid on National Rail, and in most cases not worth having at all. This would hit commuters who currently buy annual travelcards particularly hard, as not only will they then have to pay full price for every journey but they will also lose the gold card benefits.

 

[JonathanH]

This would hit commuters who currently buy annual travelcards particularly hard, as not only will they then have to pay full price for every journey but they will also lose the gold card benefits.

A main line commuter might buy a point to point season which would still qualify for gold card benefits. A season ticket on National Rail doesn't have to be a Travelcard.

I think this is more about withdrawal of paper tickets than removal of annual season tickets issued on Oyster which might still continue. Oyster seasons still qualify for gold card benefits.

A bit of this was already inherent in the fact that Travelcard benefits aren't available in the flexi-season ticket product (or solely within Zones 1-6) because TfL felt that its pricing of daily capping already catered for part time commuting.

 

[Non Multi]

From a personal (leisure only) point of view, undiscounted London Travelcards only make financial sense when I'm visiting 2+ places, so I very rarely buy them.

It's a great product for exploring London and its attractions cheaply, so its demise will put off some potential visitors such as students and young people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It appears that some proposals are now being made as to how to address the TfL funding issues, the most pertinent being withdrawal of paper travelcards, a higher cost to access Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line, fare increases and increases in the eligibility age for free travel.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...-tube-bus-fares-heathrow-premium-b972232.html

What might be interesting is whether withdrawal from the travelcard scheme might mean that the abililty to put a paper ticket through TfL ticket barriers is withdrawn and that removal of cross-London travel on paper tickets is also to abolished.

There would certainly be a considerable saving on not maintaining magstripe kit.

 

[JonathanH]

From a personal (leisure only) point of view, undiscounted London Travelcards only make financial sense when I'm visiting 2+ places, so I very rarely buy them.

It's a great product for exploring London and its attractions cheaply, so its demise will put off some potential visitors such as students and young people.

It sounds like they are only getting rid of paper travelcards. There will still be PAYG, dally and weekly capping which is how TfL feel most of their customers want to benefit from what travelcards offered. People will still be able to explore London in exactly the way you are describing.

As people point out, the outboundary travelcard is a loss felt by people outside London.

Isn't TfL just saying to government that it wants to conclude a process it has been working towards since it first introduced Oyster?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Withdrawal of outboundary travelcards would be a very serious issue and would represent a massive increase in fares, particularly for leisure travel.

On most routes only for Railcard holders. There are exceptions, but most of these are priced at roughly Off Peak/Anytime Day Return to London Terminals plus Travelcard.

Without the potentially large saving on magstripe kit, I could see this being revenue negative on many routes. Certainly a Bletchley Anytime Day Travelcard is considerably more expensive than Anytime Day Single + Off Peak Day Single (no evening restrictions) + two contactless Tube singles.

If it is about the magstripe kit, then why not keep the tickets but ITSO only?

 

[JonathanH]

If it is about the magstripe kit, then why not keep the tickets but ITSO only?

I suspect it is more likely to be revenue apportionment - eg getting to keep its own income for journeys on TfL services rather than National Rail services. Expansion of PAYG could include a 'Travelcard' product via daily capping that TfL were comfortable with the revenue apportionment for.

There are exceptions, but most of these are priced at roughly Off Peak/Anytime Day Return to London Terminals plus Travelcard.

I'm not at all sure that is true - it might be valid if you are only looking to travel twice in Zone 1 or just use buses.

An off-peak day return from Bletchley to Euston is £21.30. An off-peak day travelcard from Bletchley is £26.30.

There is no daily cap as low as £5.00. The zone 1-6 cap is £13.50.

This illustrates why TfL might be keen for a change in the balance of revenue associated with these agreements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people travelling from the SE don't rag around London all day, as a visit is much less of a novelty. They will most often do one return Tube journey to wherever they are going, typically zone 1. The benefit of the Travelcard is simplicity.

 

[JonathanH]

Most people travelling from the SE don't rag around London all day, as a visit is much less of a novelty. They will most often do one return Tube journey to wherever they are going, typically zone 1. The benefit of the Travelcard is simplicity.

Yes, and the advantage to TfL of this change would be that they get the entire revenue from two Zone 1 singles for people who do what you suggest and more for those people who make more than two underground journeys whereas the Travelcard pot probably gives them a lower allocation currently.

 

[hkstudent]

Do these need to be agreed by central Government? I can’t see the Tory’s agreeing to the removal of Travelcards to their ‘safe seats’

It has to be agreed by the central government.
For example, zonal fare capping and travelcard price are actually to be agreed mutually by DfT and TfL, which when the Mayor tries to freeze fares in London during 2016-2020, the travelcard / capping cannot be frozen which causes some people being upset.

 

[bramling]

It has to be agreed by the central government.
For example, zonal fare capping and travelcard price are actually to be agreed mutually by DfT and TfL, which when the Mayor tries to freeze fares in London during 2016-2020, the travelcard / capping cannot be frozen which causes some people being upset.

It’s probably a better choice than some of the other proposals.

It will hit leisure day-trippers, but less so commuters. And certainly less contentious than the boundary road charge, which would have caused big issues - not least for companies like TfL like themselves who are now finding themselves having difficulty recruiting and retaining people of the necessary standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and the advantage to TfL of this change would be that they get the entire revenue from two Zone 1 singles for people who do what you suggest and more for those people who make more than two underground journeys whereas the Travelcard pot probably gives them a lower allocation currently.

Plus it would allow the railway to abolish magstripe tickets, end ToD and shout about e-tickets for all journeys (with TVMs just issuing barcodes on till roll). Publicity benefits and cost savings all round.

Even if they kept cross London through tickets that would mean barcode readers on a very small number of gatelines vs magstripe readers on all of them.

 

[davews]

Many day trippers may well just do one or two zone 1 trips. When I was doing the London Loop, Capital Ring, etc, it was rather more than zone 1. I called the London Loop the Zone 6 boundary walk. Out boundary travel cards are excellent value for that and it would be very expensive just on PAYG.

I wonder if he will allow adding railcard discounts to contactless?

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if he will allow adding railcard discounts to contactless?

Why would that happen? Cost of implementation and passengers need to travel 50% more to bring in the same revenue.

(I think it is one of the things the DfT may have to work on as part of its plans to spread Contactless more widely but TfL doing it in the short term seems unlikely.)

Out boundary travel cards are excellent value for that and it would be very expensive just on PAYG.

It is possible to travel to the first station in Zone 6 and start using PAYG from there.

 

[matt_world2004]

Doesn't the reimbursement mechanism for travelcards go on a per mile basis which probably financially disadvantages tube and bus revenue whose journeys are often shorter

 

[Horizon22]

In regards to the new TfL financial statement, the BBC London Transport Correspondent Tom Edwards has tweeted the following regarding the Mayor’s proposals:

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1471183236428615681?

It includes the following information (the end is cut off in the tweet)

Withdrawing from the Travelcard agreement. Travelcards are a range of tickets which are valid for National Rail services in London, as well as TfL services. Travelcard users are now a minority, as passengers gain many of the same beenfits from other ticket types due to the introduction of Contactless and Oyster Pay As You Go (PAYG). With the offer of daily and weekly capping, these products offer more flexibility to most customers. Moving {cut off}

Whether this means anything for cross London “Maltese cross” journeys doesn’t seem to be mentioned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is mentioned on the TfL savings thread.

A quick analysis of it is that it has fairly big potential for savings:-

• No need to maintain the magstripe kit (replaced either with nothing or barcode readers at the major interchanges only)
• Reduced Railcard discounts
• National Rail could move wholly to e-tickets (on till roll from TVMs) and potentially get rid of Ticket on Departure entirely
• TfL could even consider removing TVMs entirely and just having "Oyster dispensers"
• A bit more revenue to TfL rather than shared (most users of outboundary Travelcards don't use the National Rail capability yet the revenue is shared)

But also for costs:-

• Most people in the South East going to London are just making the train journey plus a return Tube or bus journey to their end destination, usually buying Travelcards just because of simplicity. Thus they could end up paying less if "forced" into using a day return plus contactless, particularly if it is an Anytime Day Travelcard.

The main thing I can see it making quite awkward is family day trips to London where the kids are too old to get completely free travel but where it would also be awkward for them to get Oyster Zip cards, and where they don't have their own contactless card. You could get a "GoHenry" or similar for them, but really TfL could do with easing this process a bit, perhaps using the Visitor Oyster product in some way. The present process for this with children is unbelievably clunky.

 

[Watershed]

Raising the Oyster deposit to £7 is simply wrong. Even the current £5 is already difficult to justify when paper tickets are priced so high. Public transport has to remain accessible to the poorest in society; not all of them will have contactless cards (or even a bank account) and not all of them will have Oyster cards.

TfL also won't be able to entirely rid itself of magstripe readers unless it also withdraws from all National Rail interavailability agreements. Which would cause significant inconvenience on some flows, to say the least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Raising the Oyster deposit to £7 is simply wrong. Even the current £5 is already difficult to justify when paper tickets are priced so high. Public transport has to remain accessible to the poorest in society; not all of them will have contactless cards (or even a bank account) and not all of them will have Oyster cards.

TfL also won't be able to entirely rid itself of magstripe readers unless it also withdraws from all National Rail interavailability agreements. Which would cause significant inconvenience on some flows, to say the least.

Would a better option here be to stop it being a deposit and simply make it a charge? Londoners would never refund it anyway as they need it all the time, so this would be a neat "tourist tax". And it would also simplify TfL's accounting.

Similarly put a 12 month expiry on credit, so they don't have unlimited liabilities sat in their account.

 

[miklcct]

Most people in the South East going to London are just making the train journey plus a return Tube or bus journey to their end destination, usually buying Travelcards just because of simplicity. Thus they could end up paying less if "forced" into using a day return plus contactless, particularly if it is an Anytime Day Travelcard.

I have a friend who lives in Reading and uses a 26-30 railcard who travelled with me partially on a day out in London. She used a outboundary travelcard on that day which the price was £17.6, while the corresponding day return was £14.45, the difference being £3.15.

The inner-London travel she did on that day was buses 113 from Paddington to Mill Hill, 221 back to Mill Hill Broadway, National Rail from Mill Hill Broadway to St Prancas connecting to the Tube to Paddington. If she used an registered Oyster instead, she wouldn't reach the zones 1-4 cap at £7 by paying £1.55 + £1.55 + £3.15, so an outboundary Travelcard remained a great value for her. Therefore, even for a simple round-trip inside London from Reading, a Travelcard can be a great value. In fact, a Reading - U1234 any permitted return is more expensive than a Travelcard!!!!!

However, for me living in Bournemouth, the price is £43.4 off-peak / £37.6 super off-peak return compared to £50.35 travelcard, so a travelcard is only a great value if I go to London before super off-peak is available and travel enough to at least zone 4 in London to reach to cap to break even (which means at least 2 trains and 1 bus journey).

Would a better option here be to stop it being a deposit and simply make it a charge? Londoners would never refund it anyway as they need it all the time, so this would be a neat "tourist tax". And it would also simplify TfL's accounting.

Similarly put a 12 month expiry on credit, so they don't have unlimited liabilities sat in their account.

A 12-month expiry isn't a good idea for non-tourists who go to London occasionally, taking only about £2.1 worth of tube travel in zones 2-6 each day. The maximum credit stored limits the liabilities anyway. I believe 7 years will be a better idea.

 

[Kite159]

Getting rid of outer boundary travelcards will decrease my visits to the capital. Having a paper travelcard is easier than using oyster as I don't need to keep an eye out on maximum journey times if doing something more unusual.

Passengers will just end up paying twice for the section from the boundary to the first stop their train will stop at where they can change to the oyster/contactless system.

Ie someone from Stevenage changing at Finsbury Park or someone from Woking changing at Clapham Junction etc.

Will also hit those who hold network railcards as those can't be added to oyster.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Sounds like more sabre-rattling to me. The text of the Travelcard Agreement has been released under an FOI request.

To summarise: Withdrawal on either side requires 12 months notice in writing (though that MAY be reduced to 180 days if the other party agrees) AND the party proposing to withdraw MUST cover the other party's additional costs up to the point of withdrawal.

You can also be reasonably sure that RDG would lay the blame for the associated price increases squarely at TfL's door.

For example: A High Wycombe to London Terminals Off-Peak Day Return is currently £22.70, with the Travelcard being £26.30. If the Travelcard was removed, someone making one Return journey in Zone 1 would pay a total of £27.50, or 4.6% more than at present. If they make enough journeys to hit the £7.40 Zone 1 & 2 daily cap, they'll be paying £30.10, or 14.4% more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a friend who lives in Reading and uses a 26-30 railcard who travelled with me partially on a day out in London. She used a outboundary travelcard on that day which the price was £17.6, while the corresponding day return was £14.45, the difference being £3.15.

Railcards are certainly an issue, but I'm unconvinced about Railcards being valid on non-National Rail services. This is an anomaly that doesn't apply to other non-NR urban services in the UK, so there's no real case that it should apply to London.

The inner-London travel she did on that day was buses 113 from Paddington to Mill Hill, 221 back to Mill Hill Broadway, National Rail from Mill Hill Broadway to St Prancas connecting to the Tube to Paddington. If she used an registered Oyster instead, she wouldn't reach the zones 1-4 cap at £7 by paying £1.55 + £1.55 + £3.15, so an outboundary Travelcard remained a great value for her. Therefore, even for a simple round-trip inside London from Reading, a Travelcard can be a great value. In fact, a Reading - U1234 any permitted return is more expensive than a Travelcard!!!!!

You should generally not buy a <station>-U<anything> ticket. They are simply priced at the ticket to London Terminals plus a Tube paper single to the zone specified. The only reason to buy one is as part of a split where you want contiguous tickets across London, and in that case it's worth the premium as effectively an insurance policy against stranding.

A 12-month expiry isn't a good idea for non-tourists who go to London occasionally, taking only about £2.1 worth of tube travel in zones 2-6 each day. The maximum credit stored limits the liabilities anyway. I believe 7 years will be a better idea.

Realistically people who go to London less than once a year won't notice the extra cost. If you went at any time during that year, use of the card would "renew" it anyway.

Sounds like more sabre-rattling to me. The text of the Travelcard Agreement has been released under an FOI request.

To summarise: Withdrawal on either side requires 12 months notice in writing (though that MAY be reduced to 180 days if the other party agrees) AND the party proposing to withdraw MUST cover the other party's additional costs up to the point of withdrawal.

As with any contract, it can be overridden by signing a new one, because the two parties are the only ones who could sue the other one and if they both agree they clearly won't, and contract law is only a civil matter so can only be enforced by one party sueing the other. That 180 days is completely moot.

 

[miklcct]

I've just studied the fares along SW main line and found out some pricing oddity - in particular a super-off-peak version of travelcard is available from Basingstoke or closer but not beyond that. By splitting at Basingstoke I can effectively make the travelcard "premium" at £2.65 (with travelcard). This will be useful on Sunday when all trains from Bournemouth to London stop at Basingstoke but not useful on Monday to Saturdays. Unfortunately although Trainsplit does outside London - U zone tickets, it doesn't do travelcards yet.

Railcards are certainly an issue, but I'm unconvinced about Railcards being valid on non-National Rail services. This is an anomaly that doesn't apply to other non-NR urban services in the UK, so there's no real case that it should apply to London.

Railcards are irrelevant here as they are simply 1/3 off the full fare, including returns, PAYG, caps and travelcards. The same pricing oddity can be found without a Railcard as well as long as it is off-peak. Abolishing outboundary travelcards means effective fare increase for a lot of people as well.

 

[bb21]

You should generally not buy a <station>-U<anything> ticket. They are simply priced at the ticket to London Terminals plus a Tube paper single to the zone specified.

They are zonal add-on fares, which is a lot less than a Tube paper single.

U-zone fares are also Railcard-discountable.

 

[JonathanH]

Will also hit those who hold network railcards as those can't be added to oyster.

I would imagine that the Network Railcard is already on the way out, particularly with the extension of PAYG out of London.

Getting rid of outer boundary travelcards will decrease my visits to the capital. Having a paper travelcard is easier than using oyster as I don't need to keep an eye out on maximum journey times if doing something more unusual.

Swings and roundabouts though - there are 'more unusual' things that can be done with Contactless as well - like going out to point B between point A and point C and only having to pay for the trip from A to C.

However, TfL's view is clearly that most people can cope with Oyster and Contactless and that it won't have a detrimental impact on travelling.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are zonal add-on fares, which is a lot less than a Tube paper single.

£6 return uplift from Bletchley at any time of day. So you are right, but contactless still wins.

U-zone fares are also Railcard-discountable.

There is that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit that, much as I'm not hugely opposed to something that might solve the issue enabling National Rail services to go 100% e-ticket/ITSO, it seems quite raw that the Congestion Charge is being rolled back. This makes the whole thing read rather differently - "give us some money so we can be more favourable towards cars", to which my answer would be "er, no".

 

[greatkingrat]

Sounds like more sabre-rattling to me. The text of the Travelcard Agreement has been released under an FOI request.

To summarise: Withdrawal on either side requires 12 months notice in writing (though that MAY be reduced to 180 days if the other party agrees) AND the party proposing to withdraw MUST cover the other party's additional costs up to the point of withdrawal.

Although now, both parties are essentially the Government, so presumably getting the necessary agreements won't be difficult.

 

[Starmill]

As with any contract, it can be overridden by signing a new one, because the two parties are the only ones who could sue the other one and if they both agree they clearly won't, and contract law is only a civil matter so can only be enforced by one party sueing the other. That 180 days is completely moot.

TfL will have to give something up in return for changing the agreement, however. Which is the point being made by cyruswuff.

Although now, both parties are essentially the Government, so presumably getting the necessary agreements won't be difficult.

If we were living in a logical world both TfL and the DfT being public bodies would mean there were no funding crisis in the first place.