Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?

[Mag_seven]

Public transport should only be used for essential/work journeys not leisure journeys.

Is that in the (English) regulations (see below) or is it just your opinion? I suspect the latter.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[yorksrob]

Public transport should only be used for essential/work journeys not leisure journeys. That must stay at present to help maintain social distancing for those who must travel on public transport.

This isn't the position in other countries loosening travel restrictions and there is no justification for it here.

 

[37424]

Is that in the (English) regulations (see below) or is it just your opinion? I suspect the latter.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

Well regardless of what the regulations say if you look on the LNER website for instance they make it very clear that as far as they are concerned you should only travel by LNER if its essential

 

[111-111-1]

Is that in the (English) regulations (see below) or is it just your opinion? I suspect the latter.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

As you well no the law, guidelines and Government statements do not line up with each other. So YES the law does not state that public transport cannot be used for leisure travel but the guidelines and Government statements continually tell us not to use public transport unless there is no alternative for essential/work travel. (work at home if you can also part of this).

Leisure travel, for the likes of going for exercise, is neither essential or work travel so public transport is effectively barred for it. Every station, I have seen, has notice "is your journey essential?" at the entrance on depart screens and on PA.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

As you well no the law, guidelines and Government statements do not line up with each other. So YES the law does not state that public transport cannot be used for leisure travel but the guidelines and Government statements continually tell us not to use public transport unless there is no alternative for essential/work travel. (work at home if you can also part of this).

Leisure travel, for the likes of going for exercise, is neither essential or work travel so public transport is effectively barred for it. Every station, I have seen, has notice "is your journey essential?" at the entrance on depart screens and on PA.

What I don't want to see is this becoming a semi-permeant or even permeant situation whilst Covid 19 is still a risk in the human population. I understand the need for these restrictions but they are only intended to ever be temporary. We have lived with many serious, infectious diseases before many a lot more lethal and nasty than Covid 19 including polio, smallpox, the Spanish Flu pandemic not to mention all of the bacterial infections that us as a species had to contend with before the development of antibiotics but I don't think rail travel was ever restricted during those times so when infection levels drop low enough the restrictions must go.

I do have a personal interest in this as I have travelled to see my friend by train of a weekend for a long time and want to see him again as soon as possible I have Aspergers so unsurprisingly I have not liked my routine being disrupted as a result of this pandemic and in a few weeks or so surely weekend travel should be OK for this purpose at least? A lot less people travel for work of a weekend and with less travel for events such as sport and less inbound tourism surely you would expect there to be room on a train in a socially distanced way for me to see my friend? I used the TfW service from LSP and even before this kicked off I had little issue in sitting on that train 2m away from anyone else. Otherwise we will be running all these services and of a weekend we are going to have trains just carrying around fresh air surley?

On that note I have now wrote an email to my MP expressing my views of how Covid and its associated restrictions to control it are affecting people on the autistic spectrum and the anxiety and stress it can cause and making it clear that the current control measures including those relating to public transport must be only temporary. I do understand the Covid 19 problem very well but for those on the autistic spectrum the changes and the uncertainty is a lot more likely to result in subsequent mental health issues. I am lucky that I live with my parents but I feel for the ASD people who live alone not permitted to have friends or family visit.

 

[yorksrob]

What I don't want to see is this becoming a semi-permeant or even permeant situation whilst Covid 19 is still a risk in the human population. I understand the need for these restrictions but they are only intended to ever be temporary. We have lived with many serious, infectious diseases before many a lot more lethal and nasty than Covid 19 including polio, smallpox, the Spanish Flu pandemic not to mention all of the bacterial infections that us as a species had to contend with before the development of antibiotics but I don't think rail travel was ever restricted during those times so when infection levels drop low enough the restrictions must go.

I do have a personal interest in this as I have travelled to see my friend by train of a weekend for a long time and want to see him again as soon as possible I have Aspergers so unsurprisingly I have not liked my routine being disrupted as a result of this pandemic and in a few weeks or so surely weekend travel should be OK for this purpose at least? A lot less people travel for work of a weekend and with less travel for events such as sport and less inbound tourism surely you would expect there to be room on a train in a socially distanced way for me to see my friend? I used the TfW service from LSP and even before this kicked off I had little issue in sitting on that train 2m away from anyone else. Otherwise we will be running all these services and of a weekend we are going to have trains just carrying around fresh air surley?

On that note I have now wrote an email to my MP expressing my views of how Covid and its associated restrictions to control it are affecting people on the autistic spectrum and the anxiety and stress it can cause and making it clear that the current control measures including those relating to public transport must be only temporary. I do understand the Covid 19 problem very well but for those on the autistic spectrum the changes and the uncertainty is a lot more likely to result in subsequent mental health issues. I am lucky that I live with my parents but I feel for the ASD people who live alone not permitted to have friends or family visit.

Please report back what your MP says about the public transport issue

 

[111-111-1]

What I don't want to see is this becoming a semi-permeant or even permeant situation whilst Covid 19 is still a risk in the human population. I understand the need for these restrictions but they are only intended to ever be temporary. We have lived with many serious, infectious diseases before many a lot more lethal and nasty than Covid 19 including polio, smallpox, the Spanish Flu pandemic not to mention all of the bacterial infections that us as a species had to contend with before the development of antibiotics but I don't think rail travel was ever restricted during those times so when infection levels drop low enough the restrictions must go.

I do have a personal interest in this as I have travelled to see my friend by train of a weekend for a long time and want to see him again as soon as possible I have Aspergers so unsurprisingly I have not liked my routine being disrupted as a result of this pandemic and in a few weeks or so surely weekend travel should be OK for this purpose at least? A lot less people travel for work of a weekend and with less travel for events such as sport and less inbound tourism surely you would expect there to be room on a train in a socially distanced way for me to see my friend? I used the TfW service from LSP and even before this kicked off I had little issue in sitting on that train 2m away from anyone else. Otherwise we will be running all these services and of a weekend we are going to have trains just carrying around fresh air surley?

On that note I have now wrote an email to my MP expressing my views of how Covid and its associated restrictions to control it are affecting people on the autistic spectrum and the anxiety and stress it can cause and making it clear that the current control measures including those relating to public transport must be only temporary. I do understand the Covid 19 problem very well but for those on the autistic spectrum the changes and the uncertainty is a lot more likely to result in subsequent mental health issues. I am lucky that I live with my parents but I feel for the ASD people who live alone not permitted to have friends or family visit.

I do have great sympathy with you. The restrictions will be tempory but, in my opinion, opening travel and other activities slowly is better than a quick opening and then a return maybe to a tougher lockdown.

 

[scotrail158713]

Unfortunately the Government has dropped a major clanger allowing,virtually, free travel for exercise. A far more sensible approach would have been a 15 or 20 mile limit which would allow even those living in the centre of big cities to get into the countryside.

This is where the problem occurs now. People are being strongly discouraged from using public transport unless it’s necessary, however people with cars are effectively now allowed to drive without restrictions. This creates frustration among non-drivers as they are effectively still locked down, whilst the rest of England are able to go out and about.
One thing needs to be changed - either the unlimited driving for exercise, or the discouragement from using public transport.

 

[yorksrob]

It would be far better to manage public transport users needs now, for example by restricting them to certain times of day and requiring face masks, than creating a large disparity and frankly risking the credibility of the restrictions altogether.

 

[Bikeman78]

What I don't want to see is this becoming a semi-permeant or even permeant situation whilst Covid 19 is still a risk in the human population. I understand the need for these restrictions but they are only intended to ever be temporary. We have lived with many serious, infectious diseases before many a lot more lethal and nasty than Covid 19 including polio, smallpox, the Spanish Flu pandemic not to mention all of the bacterial infections that us as a species had to contend with before the development of antibiotics but I don't think rail travel was ever restricted during those times so when infection levels drop low enough the restrictions must go.

I do have a personal interest in this as I have travelled to see my friend by train of a weekend for a long time and want to see him again as soon as possible I have Aspergers so unsurprisingly I have not liked my routine being disrupted as a result of this pandemic and in a few weeks or so surely weekend travel should be OK for this purpose at least? A lot less people travel for work of a weekend and with less travel for events such as sport and less inbound tourism surely you would expect there to be room on a train in a socially distanced way for me to see my friend? I used the TfW service from LSP and even before this kicked off I had little issue in sitting on that train 2m away from anyone else. Otherwise we will be running all these services and of a weekend we are going to have trains just carrying around fresh air surley?

On that note I have now wrote an email to my MP expressing my views of how Covid and its associated restrictions to control it are affecting people on the autistic spectrum and the anxiety and stress it can cause and making it clear that the current control measures including those relating to public transport must be only temporary. I do understand the Covid 19 problem very well but for those on the autistic spectrum the changes and the uncertainty is a lot more likely to result in subsequent mental health issues. I am lucky that I live with my parents but I feel for the ASD people who live alone not permitted to have friends or family visit.

Restrictions on public transport will need to be lifted as soon as any attempt is made at opening up leisure or tourism in London. No one drives to the Tower of London, the Shard, the London Dungeon, Museum of London or any of a hundred other places one could name. Outside London it's a different matter because most attractions are further from railway stations and have parking. However, outside London many trains are less busy too. Off peak Valley Lines are are not busy at all, except on Saturdays when they are wedged with shoppers.

 

[yorksrob]

Arguably people will see contact with friends and relatives as more of a priority than visiting tourist attractions, therefore provision should be made as soon as this becomes permitted to a greater extent than the "one person in a park" as at present.

 

[nedchester]

Let's face it long term social distancing is neither practical nor sustainable. It seems to me that the politicians are ignoring this one.

 

[yorksrob]

Let's face it long term social distancing is neither practical nor sustainable. It seems to me that the politicians are ignoring this one.

Particularly at 2m.

Moderator note: Please discuss the 2m guideline at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...al-distancing-rule-who-guidance-is-1m.204256/

 

[Bikeman78]

Arguably people will see contact with friends and relatives as more of a priority than visiting tourist attractions, therefore provision should be made as soon as this becomes permitted to a greater extent than the "one person in a park" as at present.

Yes that's true of course. Many people in London don't have a car so if they wanted to visit each other they would have to use public transport.

 

[Bikeman78]

Let's face it long term social distancing is neither practical nor sustainable. It seems to me that the politicians are ignoring this one.

I agree. Plenty of people have already realised this and the number is growing every week. The tube is apparently already too full in the peaks to make it practical and that's with a fraction of the pre virus loadings. Who knows what will happen. The government can't afford to pay the entire tourism/leisure workforce to stay at home for 18 months or, potentially, forever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was also a bit surprised to hear that but we don't know what was said; they cannot stop people travelling for an allowed reason (and the list of valid reasons is greater now than it was before; so you can be travelling to meet a friend for example!) but if they are advising people of the practicalities, such as facilities being closed/unavailable and asking people to reconsider, then that's perhaps not a bad thing. I'd be curious to hear what was said.

Yes, this doesn't seem clear. If they were advising people they might want to choose somewhere other than Brighton as it's busy that is no bad thing - but I suspect that may well not be what they were doing.

 

[317 forever]

Let's face it long term social distancing is neither practical nor sustainable. It seems to me that the politicians are ignoring this one.

Politicians could be taking too much notice of Chris Whitty. Once more hospitality opens, provisionally on July 4th, off-peak travel at least ought to beome more liberated.

 

[bramling]

This is where the problem occurs now. People are being strongly discouraged from using public transport unless it’s necessary, however people with cars are effectively now allowed to drive without restrictions. This creates frustration among non-drivers as they are effectively still locked down, whilst the rest of England are able to go out and about.
One thing needs to be changed - either the unlimited driving for exercise, or the discouragement from using public transport.

At the end of the day public transport is a major problem, both for users and staff. There’s already a list of ER issues as long as the proverbial arm, and with shielding set to continue for the time being like it or not the industry needs to keep happy those staff who are at work, those who have contributed to keeping the country going over the last two months.

Yes it’s unfair to those who can’t or haven’t chosen to learn to drive. Life’s unfair. Nobody chose to engineer this situation, unfortunately we have to make the best of a bad job.

Reality is that if rail travel is completely opened up then what will happen is we’ll end up with packed trains to places like Skegness or Brighton. We simply can’t have that at the moment, and unless anyone can devise a fairer way of doing it than “essential journeys only” then we’re going to keep having that problem, which is no use to anyone. Ironically once we manage to get many more of the population back to work then it may well not be such a problem as there won’t be so many sitting around looking for leisure activities to occupy their new-found spare time.

 

[yorksrob]

At the end of the day public transport is a major problem, both for users and staff. There’s already a list of ER issues as long as the proverbial arm, and with shielding set to continue for the time being like it or not the industry needs to keep happy those staff who are at work, those who have contributed to keeping the country going over the last two months.

Yes it’s unfair to those who can’t or haven’t chosen to learn to drive. Life’s unfair. Nobody chose to engineer this situation, unfortunately we have to make the best of a bad job.

Reality is that if rail travel is completely opened up then what will happen is we’ll end up with packed trains to places like Skegness or Brighton. We simply can’t have that at the moment, and unless anyone can devise a fairer way of doing it than “essential journeys only” then we’re going to keep having that problem, which is no use to anyone. Ironically once we manage to get many more of the population back to work then it may well not be such a problem as there won’t be so many sitting around looking for leisure activities to occupy their new-found spare time.

And yet miraculously other countries in the same situation as us, manage to enable residents to use public transport to see their freinds and relatives.

Perhaps our politicians, unions and railway management should just ask them how they do it.

 

[bramling]

And yet miraculously other countries in the same situation as us, manage to enable residents to use public transport to see their freinds and relatives.

Perhaps our politicians, unions and railway management should just ask them how they do it.

Yes and perhaps they will, however for now the main priority is to get through tomorrow. This may prove to be a very difficult day for elements of the industry, and no one quite knows what’s going to happen (it could prove a complete non event, or the opposite).

Pretty much the sole focus for now is getting as many people to and from work as safely as possible. That has got to be the priority.

If we can succeed in getting as many people as possible back to work (though squaring up the schools problem is clearly going to be challenging), then some of these issues may wither away. At the moment there’s quite simply too many people with ample time on their hands for a leisure trip, and public transport can’t cope with that.

 

[philosopher]

At the end of the day public transport is a major problem, both for users and staff. There’s already a list of ER issues as long as the proverbial arm, and with shielding set to continue for the time being like it or not the industry needs to keep happy those staff who are at work, those who have contributed to keeping the country going over the last two months.

Yes it’s unfair to those who can’t or haven’t chosen to learn to drive. Life’s unfair. Nobody chose to engineer this situation, unfortunately we have to make the best of a bad job.

The problem is that if people see a rule as unfair, I think they are more likely to not comply with it. They will use the unfairness of the rule as a means to justifying to themselves breaking the rule. Something similar I reckon could have been happening with those without access to private outdoor space justifying using parks for sunbathing or picnics during the stricter period of the lockdown.

I think at some point the government will have to accept that some non essential journeys will have to be made by public transport. Therefore I think it would be better if the social distancing requirements where relaxed to one metre on public transport to permit some non essential travel. Perhaps something similar to what is done in France could be done where only essential travel is permitted in the peaks but off-peak non essential travel is allowed and masks are compulsory.

 

[yorkie]

....I think at some point the government will have to accept that some non essential journeys will have to be made by public transport...

Just to be clear: the current restrictions on movement are defined in the legislation (and apply regardless of mode). You can use any mode but the use of public transport is discouraged and people are asked to use other modes (car/bike/walking) if at all possible.

81% of the population has access to a car (source: RAC) so this means that, for the vast majority of journeys, public transport does not need to be used, thus freeing up space for those who do need to use it.

I do not think that it will be a sustainable position for very long, as road congestion will put people off cycling, which will make the situation even worse. But, for now, with few people travelling, the situation is what it is. But equally let's not pretend the legislation says things it doesn't say!

 

[Freightmaster]

The problem is that if people see a rule as unfair, I think they are more likely to not comply with it. They will use the unfairness of the rule as a means to justifying to themselves breaking the rule.

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[BJames]

It's the actual risk that people need to be aware of.

According to worldometer (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) there have been 316,507 deaths from coronavirus (at the time of writing). Also at the time of writing, there have been (https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/) 22,229,387 deaths. That means that 1.42% of global deaths this year have been caused by the coronavirus. That's not great by any means - but what it does mean is that the risk to some people is so small that it is no wonder not everyone takes it as seriously if they know the risk to them is pretty much imperceptible. And there's a small group of the population who are taking it too seriously. If you're that worried that if you go out you will get seriously ill and could die, then the best advice is to not go out, surely? You can get friends and family to deliver your vital medicines and food and if going to hospital or the doctors, wear a face covering and avoid as many people as possible - usually this doesn't involve shouting at people though

 

[APT618S]

I'm reminded of the comments above: it's the actual risk that people need to be aware of.

According to worldometer (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) there have been 316,507 deaths from coronavirus (at the time of writing). Also at the time of writing, there have been (https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/) 22,229,387 deaths. That means that 1.42% of global deaths this year have been caused by the coronavirus. That's not great by any means - but what it does mean is that the risk to some people is so small that it is no wonder not everyone takes it as seriously if they know the risk to them is pretty much imperceptible. And there's a small group of the population who are taking it too seriously. If you're that worried that if you go out you will get seriously ill and could die, then the best advice is to not go out, surely? You can get friends and family to deliver your vital medicines and food and if going to hospital or the doctors, wear a face covering and avoid as many people as possible - usually this doesn't involve shouting at people though

My take on the risk is that certainly for people with no underlying health condition the risk of death from the virus is very close to the risk of death from your next year of your normal life, so thats a death rate of say 0.01-0.1% for children, 1% for a ~60 year old and 10% for a ~85 year old, as per the graph in the BBC article:

Coronavirus: How to understand the death toll

The rising number of coronavirus deaths is distressing. But what are the figures actually telling us?

www.bbc.co.uk

Given that most people are not normally frightened of dying during the next 12 months I too think that some people are taking it too seriously.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

At the moment there’s quite simply too many people with ample time on their hands for a leisure trip, and public transport can’t cope with that.

Actually it can. We currently have loads of off peak trains and buses running virtually empty for most of the day. So long as you avoid peak hours I see no good reason why people shouldn't use public transport to meet up with friends or relatives or maybe enjoy a walk out in the country.

Obviously there isn't the capacity for swathes of extending families to descend on Skegness or Scarborough but if a couple of friends want to say, head out from Manchester or Sheffield into the Peak District for a ramble, where's the problem?

 

[greyman42]

Actually it can. We currently have loads of off peak trains and buses running virtually empty for most of the day. So long as you avoid peak hours I see no good reason why people shouldn't use public transport to meet up with friends or relatives or maybe enjoy a walk out in the country.

Obviously there isn't the capacity for swathes of extending families to descend on Skegness or Scarborough but if a couple of friends want to say, head out from Manchester or Sheffield into the Peak District for a ramble, where's the problem?

There is not a problem. I asked a BTP officer if travel was for essential travel only, he replied no.

 

[LowLevel]

There is not a problem. I asked a BTP officer if travel was for essential travel only, he replied no.

Though people are being asked to use other methods of transport where possible. Where numbers remain low it isn't an issue.

On stock where the crew can shut themselves away again it's not so much of an issue. Humans have powers of self determination and can decide to remove themselves from the premises if they aren't happy.

The point it does become an issue is if it impinges on the ability of employees to socially distance in their workplace in which case the train probably won't be moving until some people exercise their discretion to go away.

If the vestibule I need to use to operate the train has passengers in it then I won't enter it until they've disappeared. Otherwise they can do what they like with themselves.

 

[fishquinn]

On stock where the crew can shut themselves away again it's not so much of an issue

Are crews still shutting themselves away or have they restarted customer service and revenue roles from today? I've heard conflicting info but it doesn't make much sense for the crew to be back out in areas of the train where they're not 'needed' for the time being.

 

[LowLevel]

Are crews still shutting themselves away or have they restarted customer service and revenue roles from today? I've heard conflicting info but it doesn't make much sense for the crew to be back out in areas of the train where they're not 'needed' for the time being.

I can only speak for my TOC which continues to have no onboard catering or revenue checks. We are still required to patrol the train periodically for security reasons and to provide a presence for customer service but no requirement to proactively approach passengers. Crews have been issued face masks to set a good example regarding the Government's guidance but not 'protective' ones in terms of respirators etc.