Long turn-rounds at quiet terminus stations

[D6130]

What is Whitby like nowadays? I once visited on a ALR and had to take a walk down the High Street to waste time, as the layover was something like 50-60 mins (that was in the late 90's).

An ideal opportunity to go for fish & chips and/or a good pint in the Station Inn opposite or - if it had opened then - the Waiting Room micropub in the station itself!

 

[Watershed]

Interesting, I always had the idea that five minutes was the minimum for a turnaround (for reliability reasons).

It depends on the location and traction in question. The Wrexham Central-Bidston service has a 3 minutes turnround at each end, pretty much all day long. Hence it can't call at all stations and as soon as there's any disruption, it struggles to recover for the rest of the day.

3 minutes is about the shortest turnround time you will get anywhere, but tends to require a location-specific exception from the default value, which is generally 5 minutes for the quickest traction types (short DMUs/EMUs).

 

[william.martin]

There is a resolution.
The xx45 (to round to an easy figure) departures from SHR arrive at BHM to depart back at xx00.
Those arrive into SHR at xx08 to form the xx13 semi-fast (WLN, TFC, SFN CSL, WVH, BHM) services, arriving xx25 to form xx35 semi fasts back to SHR which then form xx45 departures back to BHM. Rinse, repeat.
In recent 196 training, these xx13 paths have been used.



xx denotes the hour- saves writing out every single hour when services regularly depart at the same time each hour (or thereabouts)
SHR is Shrewsbury (station)
WLN is Wellington
TFC is telford
SFN is shifnal
CSL is Codsall
WVH is Wolverhampton
BHM is Birmingham New Street

196 denotes a Class 196 DMU which is a train used along that particular line. Class 170s are also used. These are trains too.
DMU stands for Diesel Multiple Unit.

That does make sense, though I do know what trains use the line as TFC is my nearest station and I use the line every fortnight.

 

[skyhigh]

Is it actually a no-no (as in a disciplinary offence)

Seems so strange & like your TOC doesn’t trust you.

Same at my TOC. It is a disciplinary offence to go into a licenced premises while on duty/in uniform. As others, again I assumed this was just a normal thing. We don't have a buffet car so that issue doesn't arise for us!

 

[nw1]

It's part of the forum rules that acronyms are explained when they are used. Nobody is calling you stupid.



Same at my TOC. It is a disciplinary offence to go into a licenced premises while on duty/in uniform. As others, again I assumed this was just a normal thing. We don't have a buffet car so that issue doesn't arise for us!

Seems odd not to allow you to go to a licensed premises (which might be a cafe, not just a pub) to partake of food or non-alcoholic drink.
Similar to banning entry to a shop "just in case" you shoplift.

 

[dk1]

Same at my TOC. It is a disciplinary offence to go into a licenced premises while on duty/in uniform. As others, again I assumed this was just a normal thing. We don't have a buffet car so that issue doesn't arise for us!

I wonder if it’s sometimes confused with going into licensed premises ‘off duty’ in uniform when alcohol is normally consumed. Nothing wrong with a breakfast muffin & unlimited Lavazza in Spoons early doors.

 

[PGAT]

In the September timetable Caterham has a 31 minute turnaround now.

That's been the case for a while

 

[WizCastro197]

Uckfield has an hour turnaround.

No it doesn't sorry, was looking at departures only on RTT!


But Redhill has a 30 minute turnaround for Tonbridge trains.

 

[Sunil_P]

10 minute turnround off peak and Saturday, all timed to connect at Wickford as best as possible, bearing in mind the two trains have to pass at North Fambridge.

Looks like it was roughly 30 minutes yesterday (12th).

Realtime Trains | Departures from Southminster all day on 12/11/2022

Train information at Southminster all day on 12/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[507020]

I don't know Middlewood so well but I do remember it being advertised as "for the Middlewood Way", which I think is a walking route on an old railway line?

Yes, the Macclesfield, Bollington and Marple Railway, from Rose Hill, jointly owned by the Great Central and North Staffordshire. The station name is literal, it being located in the middle of a wood. It also seems a convenient place from which to go and locate the Disley Tunnel of the Hope Valley line.

Would it not be better to skip Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and have those stations served solely by electrics?

Yes, but the calls at those are ridiculous. It seems to be the priority not to extend the journey time of the Stoke-on-Trent electric service. The Southport - Alderley Edge service calls at them southbound only, with no return service and that isn’t always electric either.

There is a resolution.
The xx45 (to round to an easy figure) departures from SHR arrive at BHM to depart back at xx00.
Those arrive into SHR at xx08 to form the xx13 semi-fast (WLN, TFC, SFN CSL, WVH, BHM) services, arriving xx25 to form xx35 semi fasts back to SHR which then form xx45 departures back to BHM. Rinse, repeat.
In recent 196 training, these xx13 paths have been used.

But the semi-fast service is run by TfW and extends down the North Wales Coast. There will be many examples of where units/diagrams could be saved by merging the operations of multiple TOCs. If only the idea of a single operator for the entire network had been tried before!

 

[Taunton]

For some real long turnrounds you have to go back in time.

In the 1960s the Western Region rearranged the services to Bodmin in Cornwall, with a shuttle railbus from Bodmin North to Boscarne. This genuinely 5-minute journey ran just four times a day, which was all the railbus crew did, plus running light to/from Wadebridge depot. Here's the 1965 timetable.

 

[Starmill]

Same at my TOC. It is a disciplinary offence to go into a licenced premises while on duty/in uniform. As others, again I assumed this was just a normal thing. We don't have a buffet car so that issue doesn't arise for us!

I recently went into an independent Mexican place that was like a Subway but for burritos / tacos / nachos. It had a small fridge behind the counter with a few Mexican beers in bottles, and a sign saying that the alcoholic drinks were available for sale only with a meal. I guess that would rule out even getting a burrito for takeaway from that particular joint!

 

[Steve Harris]

Quite a nice place to visit, but if we're still talking about train turnaround times, seems (mostly) to be around eight to ten minutes or so during the week.

Thanx. It's definitely changed compared to the late 90's then and no doubt better for staff.

All I noticed about Whitby was that every other shop was a fish shop or fish and chip shop, lol. But as you say, it's a nice place to visit.

 

[Undiscovered]

That does make sense, though I do know what trains use the line as TFC is my nearest station and I use the line every fortnight.

Well, some people don't and that's why the clarification was added.

 

[43066]

I wonder if it’s sometimes confused with going into licensed premises ‘off duty’ in uniform when alcohol is normally consumed. Nothing wrong with a breakfast muffin & unlimited Lavazza in Spoons early doors.

I think this particular rule is very much subject to common sense. Clearly going into a pub in the evening is going to be a total no no, but the same pub likely not an issue for breakfast (albeit I can’t think of anything worse than Wetherspoons for breakfast! Then again I don’t like Greggs, either, so clearly not a proper railwayman!) .

Equally I’ve been into places for takeaway food which also serve alcohol, as described above, without batting an eyelid.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Going into a Spoons for breakfast is indeed frowned upon (or illegal if you want) but it happens. I’ve been into the Knights Templar at Bristol for a breakfast and coffee having taken the precaution of leaving ones tie and jacket in the mess room. On one occasion I was observed in there by a manager who having removed his name badge was also enjoying his bacon and eggs. Stalemate I think

 

[43066]

Stalemate I think

Or perhaps “mutually assured destruction” …

 

[dk1]

Going into a Spoons for breakfast is indeed frowned upon (or illegal if you want) but it happens. I’ve been into the Knights Templar at Bristol for a breakfast and coffee having taken the precaution of leaving ones tie and jacket in the mess room. On one occasion I was observed in there by a manager who having removed his name badge was also enjoying his bacon and eggs. Stalemate I think

I could never be bothered to remove anything but my coat to eat. I just don’t understand the problem. It’s a cafe serving breakfast that just happens to serve a pint. It’s so strange how this even gets misconstrued. Managers enjoy it as much as anyone else.

I think this particular rule is very much subject to common sense. Clearly going into a pub in the evening is going to be a total no no, but the same pub likely not an issue for breakfast (albeit I can’t think of anything worse than Wetherspoons for breakfast! Then again I don’t like Greggs, either, so clearly not a proper railwayman!) .

Equally I’ve been into places for takeaway food which also serve alcohol, as described above, without batting an eyelid.

Oh I’m no fan of Greggs but Spoons yes. Mostly just toast & coffee but it’s unlimited refills on the hot drinks so doesn’t matter if you’ve got 30 minutes or 3 hours with nothing to do except get paid for the privilege.

 

[D6130]

For some real long turnrounds you have to go back in time.

....but there seemed to have been a few very short (2 minute) turnrounds at Bodmin General! Were they railbuses too?

 

[Taunton]

....but there seemed to have been a few very short (2 minute) turnrounds at Bodmin General! Were they railbuses too?

I think they were Bubble Car single units on the Padstow to Bodmin Road line, there was only one railbus and that was on the shuttle.

Shortly before closure of the whole line, the railbus became too unreliable, and so the single unit, when it got to Boscarne, reversed the 5 minutes to Bodmin North, then came straight back again and continued onwards.

 

[TUC]

Why do such long layovers continue to exist? When there are so many pressures from shortages of staff or rolling stock it seems a poor use of resource. Yes, there will be times when it is necessary for regular clockface timetables, but other times it does look like opportunities for interworking with other services or serving additional stations have been missed.

 

[43066]

Mostly just toast & coffee but it’s unlimited refills on the hot drinks so doesn’t matter if you’ve got 30 minutes or 3 hours with nothing to do except get paid for the privilege.

I just can’t do spoons anymore. Let’s face it, if I want to sit with a bunch of tramps and OAPs, I might as well just stay in the messroom .

Pret also do £25 monthly subscription, five drinks per day (30 mins between purchases). Worth considering if you’re in London a bit.

 

[dk1]

I just can’t do spoons anymore. Let’s face it, if I want to sit with a bunch of tramps and OAPs, I might as well just stay in the messroom .

Pret also do £25 monthly subscription, five drinks per day (30 mins between purchases). Worth considering if you’re in London a bit.

Yeah thanks but I’ve used somebody else’s Pret subscription before & I only usually have filter coffee so not worth it for me. Also in London our turnaround is 35-45 mins & most have onboard catering so it would be free anyway.

 

[najaB]

Why do such long layovers continue to exist? When there are so many pressures from shortages of staff or rolling stock it seems a poor use of resource.

The problem usually isn't at the fringes of the network but in the core busy sections - there just may not be a path available through a key junction to create a realistically deliverable timetable.

 

[Watershed]

Why do such long layovers continue to exist? When there are so many pressures from shortages of staff or rolling stock it seems a poor use of resource. Yes, there will be times when it is necessary for regular clockface timetables, but other times it does look like opportunities for interworking with other services or serving additional stations have been missed.

Sometimes a long turnround can allow staff to take breaks, thus meaning the service actually uses fewer crew than if the turnrounds were short. But with examples like Buxton, there just isn't very much that can be done - the turnround is dictated by the paths between Edgeley and Manchester, which in turn are dictated by other services that go long distances (e.g. Avanti and XC services).

 

[nw1]

That's been the case for a while

(Caterham 31 mins)
So presumably one train comes in, and immediately afterwards, as soon as the signal is clear, the previous train goes out.

 

[Ken H]

Looks like it's often as little as just four or five minutes.

Thats quite enough in Colne!

 

[William3000]

Kings Lynn is an interesting example.

20 years ago the down trains were xx45 from Kings Cross arriving at Kings Lynn at xx19 for a journey time of 94 minutes. There was a 37 minute turnround at Kings Lynn with departure of up trains at xx56, arriving Kings Cross xx33 for a journey time of 97 minutes.

Now the down trains are xx42 from Kings Cross arriving at Kings Lynn at xx31 for a journey time of 111 minutes. There is a 13 minute turnround at Kings Lynn with departure of up trains at xx44, mostly arriving Kings Cross xx33 for a journey time of 109 minutes.

Why 17 minutes longer than 20 years ago? The new trains can run at speeds of 177km/h (110mph) as opposed to 161km/h (100mph) south of Hitchin and like speed has increased in places like Shepreth. On the flip side, Cambridge (Central) is busier, the new grade separated down line north of Hitchin is slightly longer, and there are many more trains particularly along the Cambridge line between the ECML and WAML, and Cambridge North is an additional stop. But 17 minutes longer seems a lot!

 

[GordonT]

(Caterham 31 mins)
So presumably one train comes in, and immediately afterwards, as soon as the signal is clear, the previous train goes out.

A phenomenon when applicable to buses rather than trains that was/is described as "bumping off" in bus staff parlance in certain parts of the country.

 

[Wookiee]

Same at my TOC. It is a disciplinary offence to go into a licenced premises while on duty/in uniform. As others, again I assumed this was just a normal thing. We don't have a buffet car so that issue doesn't arise for us!

One of the chargemen at my local station back in the late 80s used to go out to "post a letter" at around 8 whenever he was on late shift and return sometime after 9, despite the postbox being just outside the station entrance. Make of that what you will...