Long turn-rounds at quiet terminus stations

[Surreytraveller]

That's been the case for a while

Only since September. Before that it was about 15 minutes

 

[Edsmith]

A Southeastern guard was telling me that whenever the Ashford via Maidstone East service terminates at Borough Green because of engineering work they get a long turnaround there, not much in the way of facilities nearby other than a decent chippy so normally just sit in the cab.

 

[Undiscovered]

But the semi-fast service is run by TfW and extends down the North Wales Coast. There will be many examples of where units/diagrams could be saved by merging the operations of multiple TOCs. If only the idea of a single operator for the entire network had been tried before!

WMT run semi fasts too. Currently 0813, 0913 1713 and 1813 paths off Shrewsbury. 1813 is also a diversionary route maintainer.

 

[Magdalia]

Why 17 minutes longer than 20 years ago? The new trains can run at speeds of 177km/h (110mph) as opposed to 161km/h (100mph) south of Hitchin and like speed has increased in places like Shepreth. On the flip side, Cambridge (Central) is busier, the new grade separated down line north of Hitchin is slightly longer, and there are many more trains particularly along the Cambridge line between the ECML and WAML, and Cambridge North is an additional stop. But 17 minutes longer seems a lot!

It is a lot!

The main factor is where down and up trains pass in the Fens. 20 years ago they passed between Downham Market and Watlington, now they pass between Ely North Junction and Littleport.

As far as I'm aware class 387 run at 100mph on the GN.

The Hitchin flyover is 52 chains further than the old route but only makes a difference of a few seconds timewise because the approach control and speed restrictions are less severe.

Cambridge may be busier, but it has more platforms now.

Yes, Cambridge North does add a bit of time.

There's also a lot more time at Cambridge station stops now than there used to be, even though very few trains split or join since platform extension work at Waterbeach and Littleport was completed.

 

[dk1]

GN 387s are not cleared for 110mph running on the ECML. Not sure why they’ve not even tried for it in the past.

I would imagine GN are happier keeping any extra time for padding & general reliability. The ESRs on the north end of the route over the last few months haven’t helped.

 

[krus_aragon]

London services at Holyhead have a turnaroud time of just over an hour, in order to fit the clockface schedule. At lunchtime, when there are several through trains serving boat traffic, an arriving train pulls in before the previous one departs.

At the moment, with the modified timetable, there are three Avanti shuttles from Crewe doing this: arriving 1156, 1249, 1346, and departing 1253, 1357, and 1450.

Local/TfW trains operate with much shorter turnarounds. But given there are only three platforms at Holyhead, having two tied up by Avanti services can make the diagramming tricky. (I suppose Avanti could shunt units out to the sidings if really required, and staff breaks allow, etc.)

 

[dodecahedron67]

GN 387s are not cleared for 110mph running on the ECML. Not sure why they’ve not even tried for it in the past.

I would imagine GN are happier keeping any extra time for padding & general reliability. The ESRs on the north end of the route over the last few months haven’t helped.

Believe it’s something to do with having multiple pantographs so “close” (80m apart) together at speeds >100mph on the catenary. In theory a 4 coach could run at 110mph but 8/12 can’t

This is just something I remember being told though, so it could be absolute <insert expletive of your choice>

 

[JonathanH]

Believe it’s something to do with having multiple pantographs so “close” (80m apart) together at speeds >100mph on the catenary. In theory a 4 coach could run at 110mph but 8/12 can’t

The line speed south of Woolmer Green is 100mph so the potential time saving from running at 110mph is measured in seconds.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/my-idea-for-great-northern-post-2021.205222/#post-4614136

 

[bussnapperwm]

It depends on the location and traction in question. The Wrexham Central-Bidston service has a 3 minutes turnround at each end, pretty much all day long. Hence it can't call at all stations and as soon as there's any disruption, it struggles to recover for the rest of the day.

3 minutes is about the shortest turnround time you will get anywhere, but tends to require a location-specific exception from the default value, which is generally 5 minutes for the quickest traction types (short DMUs/EMUs).

At the risk of going off topic, I'll take your Wrexham Central - Bidston and raise you the Stourbridge Town - Junction service for shortest turn around (based on the public timetables)...

2 minutes each end as at the December 2022 timetable

 

[dk1]

Believe it’s something to do with having multiple pantographs so “close” (80m apart) together at speeds >100mph on the catenary. In theory a 4 coach could run at 110mph but 8/12 can’t

This is just something I remember being told though, so it could be absolute <insert expletive of your choice>

There is a lot to do with the 80m rule & the OHL. Take the 755 fleet (I know it’s only 100mph) but pans must be this distance apart when running in multiple. If for any reason they are not which could be two 3-cars with both D coaches coupled or a 4-car with the furthest pan isolated & therefore not 80m separating them, then one of the units will automatically operate in diesel mode.

Keeping on the turnaround time theme, Cromer is reasonably short at just 3 minutes. It’s no problem however.

 

[mike57]

The current York Scarborough hourly shuttle has over 50mins lay over in York for most of the hourly services, I know that the single platform at Malton doesnt help timetabling, the optimum timetable means that both trains arrive at Malton within a few minutes of each other, and delays then result. That was one of the errors in the May 2018 timetable fiasco, east and west bound services arriving within 3 mins of each other at Malton.

Current daytime pattern is leave Scarborough xx:34, 50 mins to York, arrive xx:24, 53 mins wait, xx:17 depart York, 49 mins to Scarborough arrive XX:06, 28 mins wait leaving again at xx:34

 

[GordonT]

The current York Scarborough hourly shuttle has over 50mins lay over in York for most of the hourly services, I know that the single platform at Malton doesnt help timetabling, the optimum timetable means that both trains arrive at Malton within a few minutes of each other, and delays then result. That was one of the errors in the May 2018 timetable fiasco, east and west bound services arriving within 3 mins of each other at Malton.

Current daytime pattern is leave Scarborough xx:34, 50 mins to York, arrive xx:24, 53 mins wait, xx:17 depart York, 49 mins to Scarborough arrive XX:06, 28 mins wait leaving again at xx:34

Can it not be timetabled to commit two units/crews at any one time rather than three?

Can it not be timetabled to commit two units/crews at any one time rather than three?

Sorry I guess it's the "Malton problem" which prevents that.

 

[Watershed]

Can it not be timetabled to commit two units/crews at any one time rather than three?

Not really. If you departed either end at the same time, the trains would meet at Malton - but Malton only has one platform.

So you would either need to have the York-bound train run non-stop through Malton on the (non-platform) Up line, which would render the station useless, or retime things so that one of the trains ran later. But that would then mean a short turnround at one end, thus impacting reliability - particularly given the Malton platform constraint.

Even if you built a second platform at Malton, such a shuttle wouldn't work with the current Class 68/Mk5 rolling stock, as this requires 12 minutes for reversal/turnround - which clearly wouldn't work with the 50 minute journey time. So again you'd have to skip e.g. Seamer.

 

[mike57]

Class 68/Mk5 rolling stock, as this requires 12 minutes for reversal/turnround

How come, I assumed being push pull it wasn't very different from a normal DMU.

 

[Watershed]

How come, I assumed being push pull it wasn't very different from a normal DMU.

Presumably it's just the value that was agreed upon between the company and the union. It does seem rather excessive value though, akin to the 15 minutes mandated for a Pendolino!

 

[43066]

Presumably it's just the value that was agreed upon between the company and the union. It does seem rather excessive value though, akin to the 15 minutes mandated for a Pendolino!

Does it? I take it you have experience of driving and operating the stock in order to make that comment?

 

[billio]

Not really. If you departed either end at the same time, the trains would meet at Malton - but Malton only has one platform.

So you would either need to have the York-bound train run non-stop through Malton on the (non-platform) Up line, which would render the station useless, or retime things so that one of the trains ran later. But that would then mean a short turnround at one end, thus impacting reliability - particularly given the Malton platform constraint.

Even if you built a second platform at Malton, such a shuttle wouldn't work with the current Class 68/Mk5 rolling stock, as this requires 12 minutes for reversal/turnround - which clearly wouldn't work with the 50 minute journey time. So again you'd have to skip e.g. Seamer.

So if you put in another station somewhere on the line and thus lengthen the journey time, it wouldn't affect the service and might create a greater gap between trains arriving at Malton, thus reducing operating difficulties ?

 

[Watershed]

So if you put in another station somewhere on the line and thus lengthen the journey time, it wouldn't affect the service and might create a greater gap between trains arriving at Malton, thus reducing operating difficulties ?

It's not a question of operating difficulties, I was just illustrating why it wouldn't really be practicable to run the line using two sets.

 

[InkyScrolls]

A random example at the moment is Appleby, where some of the STP diagrams for trains terminating from Leeds have forty or so minutes. But again that includes a reversal in Appleby sidings.

 

[philthetube]

Presumably it's just the value that was agreed upon between the company and the union. It does seem rather excessive value though, akin to the 15 minutes mandated for a Pendolino!

Does it? I take it you have experience of driving and operating the stock in order to make that comment?

It seems excessive to me as well, that is not to say that it is, I am not a driver and I don't know but that was closer to being a question to a statement.

no need to bite Watershed's head off for that post.

 

[Watershed]

Does it? I take it you have experience of driving and operating the stock in order to make that comment?

I have experience of observing how long it actually takes! The process isn't as quick as your bog standard multiple unit, but I've never seen a driver need the full 12 minutes.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I have experience of observing how long it actually takes! The process isn't as quick as your bog standard multiple unit, but I've never seen a driver need the full 12 minutes.

I believe 12 mins may have been specified by the manufacturer (CAF) and may in part at least be related time 'required' for on board systems - perhaps the contract for delivery did not specify a requirement for a change ends time.

 

[najaB]

How come, I assumed being push pull it wasn't very different from a normal DMU.

I have experience of observing how long it actually takes! The process isn't as quick as your bog standard multiple unit, but I've never seen a driver need the full 12 minutes.

It is likely that 12 minutes is specified since that's the longest it would be expected to normally take, rather than the minimum or average. "Under-promise and over-deliver" and all that.

 

[Watershed]

I believe 12 mins may have been specified by the manufacturer (CAF) and may in part at least be related time 'required' for on board systems - perhaps the contract for delivery did not specify a requirement for a change ends time.

The rolling stock manufacturer won't specify the reversal time. It will be an agreement between the company and the union.

Some are simply more generous than others - for instance, ScotRail require a minimum of 5 minutes to reverse any of their units, even a single 156. Meanwhile, other TOCs such as Northern can reverse a quadruple set of 156s in 3 minutes.

Any sensible tender for units will include a requirement for the maximum time in which systems load, cabs can be set up and shut down and so forth.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The rolling stock manufacturer won't specify the reversal time. It will be an agreement between the company and the union.

I fully accept the reversal time will be an agreement between company and union but it may be the way the manufacturer's software is set up has driven this timing. In ordering stock the TOC and ROSCO should bear in mind the timetable the train is planned to operate to and specify accordingly and in this case 12mins is longer than some of the planned turnrounds at the time the train was ordered.
As you say any sensible tender for units will include a requirement for the maximum time in which systems load, cabs can be set up and shut down and so forth and it looks like this was either not specified or if it was the manufacturer could not meet the requirement.

 

[43066]

It seems excessive to me as well, that is not to say that it is, I am not a driver and I don't know but that was closer to being a question to a statement.

no need to bite Watershed's head off for that post.

I have experience of observing how long it actually takes! The process isn't as quick as your bog standard multiple unit, but I've never seen a driver need the full 12 minutes.

Fair enough - apologies if I slightly overreacted there. We have had spirited discussions about union agreements before .

It is likely that 12 minutes is specified since that's the longest it would be expected to normally take, rather than the minimum or average. "Under-promise and over-deliver" and all that.

That’s the gyst of it. Train length being the major determinant but also time taken to prep the cab, brake test (if required) etc.

 

[IBLRG]

Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg, when the service returns are on the 17th of December, should have roughly an hour's waiting time at Cleethorpes before the unit returns to Sheffield

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Same at my TOC. It is a disciplinary offence to go into a licenced premises while on duty/in uniform. As others, again I assumed this was just a normal thing. We don't have a buffet car so that issue doesn't arise for us!

Does that mean you’re not allowed go in a station ‘Pumpkin’ to have a cuppa as they mostly serve alcohol for consumption on the premises? Must rule out most station buffets!

 

[43066]

Does that mean you’re not allowed go in a station ‘Pumpkin’ to have a cuppa as they mostly serve alcohol for consumption on the premises? Must rule out most station buffets!

Technically perhaps it does, but it’s fine to visit these in practice. As noted above discretion/common sense applies.