Longest Heritage Railway extension

[61653 HTAFC]

Most impressive for 2021, although would it not do as well now given the 'staycation (not my favourite word) factor' has become less prominent as UK folk flock to the likes of Spain?

Yes, impossible for me to know all ins and outs of local Councils' and other authorities' historic line access/maintenance/renewals funding and in-kind assistance.

I'm sorry to hear geographical location may be a major determinant of 'who receives what', even if that's how politics in the West usually operates (marginal electorates receive more funding, non-government-held ones far less). I am looking forward to staying shortly in what foreigners like me regard as the stunning heritage twin towns of Shipley/Saltaire to facilitate travel on preserved railways from near Skipton, and at Keighley. In your geographical terms, neither is close to 'the good folk of London town' as one John Barry Humphries would have called it.

Saltaire I'll grant you, the original "model village" and Salt's Mill is a UNESCO World Heritage Site... but that's the first time I've heard Shipley described as a "stunning heritage town"! Other than the triangular station (which appeals to me as a railway nerd, but can't imagine "normals" being that bothered) when I think of Shipley the first things that spring to mind are Crossley's scrapyard and the town's Brutalist clock tower!

 

[30907]

Other than the triangular station (which appeals to me as a railway nerd, but can't imagine "normals" being that bothered) when I think of Shipley the first things that spring to mind are Crossley's scrapyard and the town's Brutalist clock tower!

As the former Vicar of its (1820s) Parish Church I object most strongly to its being ignored
Geographically, though, Saltaire and Shipley are one town - indeed, my parish boundary ran down Victoria Road between the Hall and the College!

 

[railfan99]

Saltaire I'll grant you, the original "model village" and Salt's Mill is a UNESCO World Heritage Site... but that's the first time I've heard Shipley described as a "stunning heritage town"! Other than the triangular station (which appeals to me as a railway nerd, but can't imagine "normals" being that bothered) when I think of Shipley the first things that spring to mind are Crossley's scrapyard and the town's Brutalist clock tower!

Apologies: last year on a Eurail, I changed trains in the early evening (in rain) at Shipley en route to Bradford prior to a stay at excellent Midland (ex-rail) Hotel (now taken over by your not well regarded chain Brittania Hotels) so was making the mistake of not looking at Google Streetview.

30907's subsequent comment, though, is reassuring. I lack either of your knowledge.

 

[deaftech]

(now taken over by your not well regarded chain Brittania Hotels)

Well, at least Britannia Hotels are preserving heritage hotels, even if they are not 5 star.

 

[Krokodil]

Catering is quite a challenging business to run and if you can get volunteers to run it you are very fortunate indeed. Paid staff are increasingly expensive and difficult to recruit and retain especially if it is only seasonal posts being offered. The days of thousands of students looking for summer jobs seems to have passed.

The peak season now extends beyond the holidays too, which means that you need more staff in May and June, so can't rely on teenagers.

 

[option]

To be honest, my query about raising speed limits was somewhat speculative, and if there's much to be discussed on the matter it probably belongs in its own thread- which I'll start if there's likely to be much to be said on the matter.

I'm not familiar with the "nuts and bolts" of what would be required to (for example) raise the linespeed of the West Somerset to say 40mph (where geometry and structures would feasibly permit it), so I'm happy to be educated by those with expertise. If we want to increase public transport use and reduce congestion, perhaps the blanket 25mph ceiling of Light Railway Orders could be amended where conditions allow? Obviously any upgrades would need to be paid for, but maybe the DfT could introduce grants for this where such investment would have a positive effect on the local environment?

Though I am just "spit-balling" here, as our friends across the pond say!

What matters with speed, & affects the visit time / length of line decisions, is the average speed for a typical visitor trip.
If a typical visitor is willing to spend 1/2hr each way, having got off & looked around station B, then you can work out what might be an ideal line length.
Average 20mph gives a length of 10miles from A to B. If you only average 10mph, then it's a length of 5miles.

You'd also have to persuade NR to allow GWSR trains to use the existing tracks 2.7km south to Cheltenham Spa station (which only has two main line platforms), alongside the existing stabling siding on the east side of the tracks, which I believe is quite heavily used. That feels like a big ask given existing traffic volumes on that line.

A Cheltenham mainline connection for the GWSR won't happen;
far too much infrastructure works needed to get there (missing bridges, major embankments that haven't had much maintenance, removal of a cycle route)
busy mainline with no space for sidings/shunting
junction at Cheltenham Spa is south facing, so could only come in from the south


IF the GWSR go for a NR connection, there is only Honeybourne. It was designed as a major junction, with space for sidings.

It would be a long extension, but it's unlikely that the 2 intermediate halts would be worth rebuilding.

Unlikely to happen any time soon. It would cost a fortune for no real gain. Inly people who would benefit on race days would be the racegoers.

Those race day services are profitable.
The firm that promotes them also have coach transfers from Moreton to Toddington, & run the Northern Belle to Evesham with a coach transfer again (only Gold Cup day, which is 1 of 4 days for Cheltenham Festival)
There's more big days at Cheltenham, which might be doable if there was a direct transfer at Honeybourne.

 

[Richard Scott]

Those race day services are profitable.
The firm that promotes them also have coach transfers from Moreton to Toddington, & run the Northern Belle to Evesham with a coach transfer again (only Gold Cup day, which is 1 of 4 days for Cheltenham Festival)
There's more big days at Cheltenham, which might be doable if there was a direct transfer at Honeybourne.

Yes, they are but the discussion is for services coming off of the mainline to run to Race Course station and those would also take paths of the aforementioned trains. There's not that many big days at Cheltenham Race Course that would make it viable and, again, likely to interfere with heritage operations.

 

[option]

Yes, they are but the discussion is for services coming off of the mainline to run to Race Course station and those would also take paths of the aforementioned trains. There's not that many big days at Cheltenham Race Course that would make it viable and, again, likely to interfere with heritage operations.

Where is it stated that the 'discussion is for services coming off the mainline'?
Getting to a mainline station would allow transfer between services.

Cheltenham Festival this year was 14-17 March, when there were no other services running on GWSR, apart from 2 steam transfers per day from Toddington.
There's another big weekend 17-18 November. Same steam transfers as March.
No heritage operations on any of those dates.
Those existing services could start from Honeybourne, doing a stop at Toddington, or it may be possible to add a third.

 

[Richard Scott]

Where is it stated that the 'discussion is for services coming off the mainline'?
Getting to a mainline station would allow transfer between services.

Cheltenham Festival this year was 14-17 March, when there were no other services running on GWSR, apart from 2 steam transfers per day from Toddington.
There's another big weekend 17-18 November. Same steam transfers as March.
No heritage operations on any of those dates.
Those existing services could start from Honeybourne, doing a stop at Toddington, or it may be possible to add a third.

I grew up next to the Race Course and am a member of said heritage railway so do have good knowledge of both factors. I am also familiar with the traffic issues in Cheltenham that race meets cause.
The discussion around a mainline link did cite the advantage of Race trains from Paddington etc being able to access Race Course station without need for a bus transfer. Majority of race meets have the transport needs met with a bus link to Cheltenham Station. The only real advantage would be Gold Cup but these trains may then take path of the existing race trains and doubt they could generate the revenue to the GWR that the race trains generate (the reason no other trains run then is to allow race trains to run).
17/18th November is in closed season where essential maintenance is done so line may not even be accessible then along its full length, race trains don't cover full length of the line.
Honeybourne is a total non starter, in reality, there is nothing there for the tourist so laying 4 miles of track for a few days just isn't going to happen. The longer the railway is the more trains it has to run at greater expense and greater pressure on volunteers. I'm afraid for the foreseeable future both of those issues will mean Honeybourne is likely to be of no interest to the GWR.

 

[D Williams]

I grew up next to the Race Course and am a member of said heritage railway so do have good knowledge of both factors. I am also familiar with the traffic issues in Cheltenham that race meets cause.
The discussion around a mainline link did cite the advantage of Race trains from Paddington etc being able to access Race Course station without need for a bus transfer. Majority of race meets have the transport needs met with a bus link to Cheltenham Station. The only real advantage would be Gold Cup but these trains may then take path of the existing race trains and doubt they could generate the revenue to the GWR that the race trains generate (the reason no other trains run then is to allow race trains to run).
17/18th November is in closed season where essential maintenance is done so line may not even be accessible then along its full length, race trains don't cover full length of the line.
Honeybourne is a total non starter, in reality, there is nothing there for the tourist so laying 4 miles of track for a few days just isn't going to happen. The longer the railway is the more trains it has to run at greater expense and greater pressure on volunteers. I'm afraid for the foreseeable future both of those issues will mean Honeybourne is likely to be of no interest to the GWR.

A sagacious observation. Opposite to expansion a number of railways need to be planning for a reduction in length in order to reduce costs, not an increase. In a very few cases can a Heritage Railway be considered a form of transport. Most are linear museums.

 

[paul1609]

A sagacious observation. Opposite to expansion a number of railways need to be planning for a reduction in length in order to reduce costs, not an increase. In a very few cases can a Heritage Railway be considered a form of transport. Most are linear museums.

Which railways do you think should be planning a reduction and which sections should they be abandoning?

 

[LUYMun]

Which railways do you think should be planning a reduction and which sections should they be abandoning?

This probably deserves a topic under "Speculative Discussion" but any of the small museums/heritage lines with no chance of expansion ever being possible. Dare I say it, the likes of the Lavender Line and Buckinghamshire Railway Centre should be the ones to close and their assets redistributed to other organisations.

 

[Titfield]

This probably deserves a topic under "Speculative Discussion" but any of the small museums/heritage lines with no chance of expansion ever being possible. Dare I say it, the likes of the Lavender Line and Buckinghamshire Railway Centre should be the ones to close and their assets redistributed to other organisations.

Being cynical or a realist (you choose) I doubt many other heritage railways need more assets unless they are ready to run in tip top condition. What nearly all heritage railways need is cash and more volunteers.

 

[LUYMun]

What nearly all heritage railways need is cash and more volunteers.

Particularly in bold - in which the heritage railways compete on a finite number of visitors, most of whom would only visit their nearest one or two once a year. And, as it has been proven many times, stingy enthusiasts wouldn't be much helpful either. Can't remember who said it, but a senior figure in railway preservation once said that, in the future, there would be an amalgamation of railways (much like the pre-Grouping era) to try and survive in this environment, so my idea that assets could be distributed to other groups following one's closure wouldn't be too far off.

EDIT: Michael Draper

 

[Krokodil]

so my idea that assets could be distributed to other groups following one's closure wouldn't be too far off.

Some things are assets - spare parts being one. Rolling stock in general however is more of a liability.

 

[railfan99]

Being cynical or a realist (you choose) I doubt many other heritage railways need more assets unless they are ready to run in tip top condition. What nearly all heritage railways need is cash and more volunteers.

Wary of going OT, but given COVID is "over", is there any sign of more volunteers (in sufficient number) joining various longer preserved lines?

 

[Falcon1200]

Buckinghamshire Railway Centre should be the ones to close and their assets redistributed to other organisations.

What would happen to Rewley Road station, already moved from Oxford and rebuilt at Quainton Road?

Heritage railways and centres will continue to exist if there is sufficient support for them, if not then their future may be in doubt, but that is for them to decide and act on.

 

[Train Maniac]

What would happen to Rewley Road station, already moved from Oxford and rebuilt at Quainton Road?

Heritage railways and centres will continue to exist if there is sufficient support for them, if not then their future may be in doubt, but that is for them to decide and act on.

Case in point, Elsecar Heritage Centre. Almost went completely over COVID, but seems to have risen from the ashes after generous support from the local council

 

[option]

Being cynical or a realist (you choose) I doubt many other heritage railways need more assets unless they are ready to run in tip top condition. What nearly all heritage railways need is cash and more volunteers.

The NT will only, & have done for some time, take on big properties if there's funds or an endowment to go with them.


Now I don't expect locos & carriages would ever have endowments to go with them.

Carriage owners, where there's not much asset value, might start giving a railway shares in the carriage as the railway maintains it over time. That could be one way of ensuring the future existence & usage of a carriage.

Locos are more complex. I could certainly see those railways with decent storage & good on-site maintenance/repair facilities & staff/volunteers attracting loco owners to base their locos there, even if they don't pay the max in usage fees. It may even be that those railways that don't have the facilities end up paying higher fees.

The existence of a good loco shed won't in itself generate cash, but if it reduces costs, then that's cash that doesn't need to be raised.
A good maintenance facility might attract volunteers, especially from outside traditional railway backgrounds.



The thing with cash is that you largely have to earn it, you have to go & get it.

The SVR extension to Kidderminster made them 16miles long, which some people claim is too long for a heritage railway. Yet it gave them access to a mainline station, & greater access to the market in Birmingham, the Black Country & Worcester.
They spent cash, but it's generated cash.

 

[47434]

Once upon a time, the Wensleydale were dreaming of running a huge line, they seem to be struggling with their new extension to Northallerton let alone anything else.

Dreams sums it up. Delusion closer to the truth for their early days. Rather than struggling I would say 'taking a sensible commercial view of the situation'

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Some of the longer lines such as the Welsh Highland, Weardale or Wensleydale run quite a lot of short workings for various reasons.

 

[D Williams]

The NT will only, & have done for some time, take on big properties if there's funds or an endowment to go with them.


Now I don't expect locos & carriages would ever have endowments to go with them.

Carriage owners, where there's not much asset value, might start giving a railway shares in the carriage as the railway maintains it over time. That could be one way of ensuring the future existence & usage of a carriage.

Locos are more complex. I could certainly see those railways with decent storage & good on-site maintenance/repair facilities & staff/volunteers attracting loco owners to base their locos there, even if they don't pay the max in usage fees. It may even be that those railways that don't have the facilities end up paying higher fees.

The existence of a good loco shed won't in itself generate cash, but if it reduces costs, then that's cash that doesn't need to be raised.
A good maintenance facility might attract volunteers, especially from outside traditional railway backgrounds.



The thing with cash is that you largely have to earn it, you have to go & get it.

The SVR extension to Kidderminster made them 16miles long, which some people claim is too long for a heritage railway. Yet it gave them access to a mainline station, & greater access to the market in Birmingham, the Black Country & Worcester.
They spent cash, but it's generated cash.

So why is the SVR trying to raise £1.5m to keep going?

 

[Flying Phil]

So why is the SVR trying to raise £1.5m to keep going?

I think all Heritage Railways are looking to raise money to keep going....The funding model will vary for each line but fares are only part of the process, bequests, donations, share issue, grants etc are all being used.

 

[JohnR]

Worth highlighting that Angus Council is currently running a consultation on a possible extension of the Caledonian Railway from Bridge of Dun to Montrose.

North Angus, Brechin and Montrose Tourism and Heritage Improvements

The survey is now closed. We'll use your feedback to help us create a shortlist of projects. The projects which have the most backing and will deliver the biggest economic and social benefits for the area, as well as protecting the built and natural environment, will go

engage.angus.gov.uk

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Worth highlighting that Angus Council is currently running a consultation on a possible extension of the Caledonian Railway from Bridge of Dun to Montrose.

North Angus, Brechin and Montrose Tourism and Heritage Improvements

The survey is now closed. We'll use your feedback to help us create a shortlist of projects. The projects which have the most backing and will deliver the biggest economic and social benefits for the area, as well as protecting the built and natural environment, will go

engage.angus.gov.uk

Railway Preservation has yet to learn to be ultra ultra cautious about any extension proposal

 

[Brush 4]

Increasingly, these lines are going to have to embrace the outside world, by inviting TOC's to run through services, in a way that allows both sides to operate. If they insist on adopting an insular attitude, the public service should be imposed. They have to increase their usefulness by making themselves accessible at all times of the year and day. Some form of revenue sharing agreement would have to be devised.

 

[D Williams]

Increasingly, these lines are going to have to embrace the outside world, by inviting TOC's to run through services, in a way that allows both sides to operate. If they insist on adopting an insular attitude, the public service should be imposed. They have to increase their usefulness by making themselves accessible at all times of the year and day. Some form of revenue sharing agreement would have to be devised.

And you are happy that your income tax goes towards subsidising a service that would be used by only a handful of passengers e.g. Totnes to Buckfastleigh, Bodmin Parkway to Bodmin, Keighley to Oxenhope, Kidderminster to Bridgnorth? To name but a few......

 

[zwk500]

Increasingly, these lines are going to have to embrace the outside world, by inviting TOC's to run through services, in a way that allows both sides to operate. If they insist on adopting an insular attitude, the public service should be imposed. They have to increase their usefulness by making themselves accessible at all times of the year and day. Some form of revenue sharing agreement would have to be devised.

TOCs generally don't want anything to do with heritage lines because the only custom is for the old trains. Heritage lines don't want the cost of meeting mainline passenger track and signalling standards.
It's been tried in a few places and never taken off other than the NYMR doing the inverse.

 

[Brush 4]

The services would be subsidised in the same way as the rest of the network. There is no reason why these should be subject to different criteria. They would go beyond the interchange to the nearest large town. As for handfuls of passengers on short journeys. Looe, St Ives, Exmouth, Severn Beach, Pembroke, Penarth, Marlow, Henley, Windermere, Alloa (reopened) North Berwick, Lymington seem to survive, with subsidy. Some have through trains to beyond the main line junction. So should heritage lines. I'm aware that Lymington was spared because of the Ferry service.

 

[Krokodil]

As for handfuls of passengers on short journeys. Looe, St Ives, Exmouth, Severn Beach, Pembroke, Penarth, Marlow, Henley, Windermere, Alloa (reopened) North Berwick, Lymington seem to survive, with subsidy

Have you seen the St Ives line in peak season? It's no mere handful of passengers, it's a wedged four car 150 that has to run at such an intense frequency that they double crew it so that there's no need to change ends. I understand that they are considering building a second platform at St Ives so that doors can be opened on both sides of the unit to save boarding time. After Truro, the station is the second busiest in Cornwall, with 200k more passengers than Penzance.