Lost Ticket?

[suley]

Hi Guys,

I have a question as its something that happened to me recently but thankfully I was not checked. Basically I travel between Bolton and Wolverton, Usually get a TPE to Manchester Picadilly and then the Virgin to MKC and swap for Wolverton, currently I work in Wolverton and so stay there in the week and bring back cloths etc on weekend back home to get washed, so usually have a suitcase and a laptop bag to carry.

Basically I purchase my tickets at the station usually paying cash, since I do this run every week ie WOL > BOL on Friday and then BOL > WOL on Sunday I usually purchase an off peak open return at the station usually on a saturday when I am in town as it saves me time.

Anyhow the past weekend I was checked as I went in from Bolton station for a ticket, and then boarded my train, at I know i went into Sainsburys and then went and boarded my train back to mkc. The MKC journey my ticket was not checked and when I got off at MKC. I then switched for my Wolverton connection and as I got off the train I was trying to find my keys as i live near the station and get things organised when I realised I did not have my ticket on me. I do remember starting my journey with it and I have a feeling I either forgot it on the virgin train or in Sainsburys as thats the 2 places I know I had most to carry.

Now I was just thinking had it been that I had lost my ticket at sainsburys or somewhere along the journey and the virgin train guy or the london midlands guy had asked me for a ticket, I would have eventually realised I had lost it at which point what would I have to do? I usually do carry cash would it mean I have to buy a new standard ticket or could I buy an off peak open return. I was also thinking potentially am I classed as a fair evader even thought I was checked at bolton heading out.

The only reason I ask is I have a bad habbit of miss placing things, only to find them later!

Another question on the same topic, this friday I plan on heading back and I usually finish work, go home, get my suitcase all packed. Head to station and into MKC and a few mins later is my connection back to manchester, Usually when I head to wolverton station there is a ticket machine but it usually says card only and I prefer paying in cash. I was thinking if i board my inital train and hopefully get on the same carriage as the conductor to get my ticket but if not and I end up in MKC, I know they have ticket barriers upstairs where I can buy a ticket to exit but my next train is a few mins away, if i board this and when the conductor comes in my carriage am I technically correct in saying I would be allowed to purchase my off peak open return ticket then. I am thinking when i go to wolverton and check the machine I will take a quick pick if it says card only so the conductor does believe me. But would rather be safe then sorry

thanks in advance

 

[Squaddie]

So, to summarise:

1. If I am unable to present a ticket when requested to do so, do I have to buy a full-price single ticket from the ticket inspector or can I buy an off-peak return?

2. If I choose not to buy a ticket before I board a train can I buy one en route?

Is that an accurate summary?

 

[bb21]

2. If I choose not to buy a ticket before I board a train can I buy one en route?

Rather,

If my payment method is not accepted at my origin, can I buy one en route?

is more accurate.

 

[suley]

So, to summarise:

1. If I am unable to present a ticket when requested to do so, do I have to buy a full-price single ticket from the ticket inspector or can I buy an off-peak return?

2. If I choose not to buy a ticket before I board a train can I buy one en route?

Is that an accurate summary?

1) Yes, would I be able to buy another off peak return or would it have to be a single and would this be a standard single or off peak single as its after 6pm

2) In a sense yes, I want to buy the ticket but the machine wont accept cash, its says card only. I have enougth cash.

I know it sounds in a sense like evasion but its not. The station at wolverton is has a ticket office which is open in the mornings only, and not after work. I would prefer to buy a ticket before I board, but the machine at wolverton does not accept. So this friday I will have to buy one onboard more then likely

 

[bb21]

I don't think you will have a problem buying onboard if there is no opportunity for you to pay using cash before boarding.

 

[suley]

Thanks would i need to take a pic of the machine in its state or can i check and if its not accepting cash just tell the inspector.

Also what would have happened on my first senario, im just entrived as to what could have potentially happened

Thanks in advance

 

[bb21]

If the machine does not normally take cash, and the ticket office is not scheduled to be open at that time, you don't need to do anything.

If cash is not taken because that function is out-of-order for some reason, it is recommended that you take a picture on your phone if you can. You don't have to do it, but it just helps avoid conflicts later on.

As to your first question, I think a lot of it comes down to discretion. Officially I think you will need to purchase another full fare ticket, however some staff will be more willing to exercise discretion if they are approached about the problem rather than you just sitting there waiting to be found out.

 

[suley]

Thanks, will take a pic tomorrow if it does not, i do need to get a new wallet and put every thing togeather to save me loosing things, thats my new years resolution.

Do we have a donations thing on this site, I do apreciate all the good work you all do! I only happen to come across this site as a few months ago VT on the weekend on First Class were giving picnic packs and I was wondering how come.

 

[Squaddie]

If the machine does not normally take cash, and the ticket office is not scheduled to be open at that time, you don't need to do anything.

If cash is not taken because that function is out-of-order for some reason, it is recommended that you take a picture on your phone if you can. You don't have to do it, but it just helps avoid conflicts later on.

But the OP said

there is a ticket machine but it usually says card only and I prefer paying in cash

So, if a machine is accepting card only and a passenger chooses not to use a card even though they're carrying one, is that reasonable grounds for not being in possession of a ticket?

 

[bb21]

But the OP saidSo, if a machine is accepting card only and a passenger chooses not to use a card even though they're carrying one, is that reasonable grounds for not being in possession of a ticket?

A passenger is not obliged to use the card for payment if he carries one. There are all sorts of reasons why the passenger may not wish to pay by card. I can't see how a TOC can possibly prove that the passenger deliberately avoided using a card that he has with him because he intended to avoid paying the correct fare, short of an admission from the passenger, if he has an alternative acceptable payment method with him.

Thanks, will take a pic tomorrow if it does not, i do need to get a new wallet and put every thing togeather to save me loosing things, thats my new years resolution.

Just ask for one at any ticket office.

Do we have a donations thing on this site, I do apreciate all the good work you all do! I only happen to come across this site as a few months ago VT on the weekend on First Class were giving picnic packs and I was wondering how come.

Thanks for the offer. We are not currently accepting donations as our income from adverts, etc, sufficiently covers the running costs of the forum at the moment.

 

[suley]

Thanks all,

The reason why i choose not to use my card is quite simple, I hate using my card I prefer to pay everything in cash, I usually carry more then I need in cash for the week as I used to work for a bank and some of the stuff i saw put me off using my card, and so i use it as a last resort.

If you do ever need any servers or tech help do let me know, I own a hosting company so you can have as much space as you need anytime

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'd just like to say at this point that the forum has been over this a few times before and there are those who believe the passenger should always pay if they can do so, rather than if they want to, and there are those who are open to, or in favour of, not paying when they have a chance to and expect the railway to bend over backwards for them. I'm not sure anything new will be added here.

A passenger is not obliged to use the card for payment if he carries one....

A debatable point possibly, however, in most cases a passenger is required to buy a ticket before boarding a train if there is facility to do so.

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas

(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has
with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket

18. Ticketless Travel in Non-Compulsory Ticket Areas

(1) In any area not designated a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter a train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has
with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket

 

[island]

A passenger is not obliged to use the card for payment if he carries one.

This should be qualified as representing your opinion/interpretation, as there are other reasonable opinions/interpretations on the topic.

 

[fowler9]

This should be qualified as representing your opinion/interpretation, as there are other reasonable opinions/interpretations on the topic.

I don't know the full regulations myself but if the customer can prove they had cash and were not able to use it then proving they had a card they could have used might be difficult?

 

[Wolfie]

This should be qualified as representing your opinion/interpretation, as there are other reasonable opinions/interpretations on the topic.

You are quite correct. Whether, of course, a TOC would wish a Court to rule on this where a passenger can prove (eg by having made an offer to pay cash to a train manager/RPI in such a situation) is a whole different issue. The more that the wholly archane/archaic nature of current railway-related legislation is explored the less, in my view, the TOCs will like it (or at least the probable outcomes once the public and media become aware of what the heck is/has been going on and then start presurising the great and the good in Westminster!).....

 

[timbo58]

Surprised no ones pointed to the obvious (to me, anyway) -If you choose to pay in a format the TOC accepts but the machine at the joining stations doesn't accept that, then buying a ticket on train is the only alternative: however you should (read: must) actively seek out the ticket seller on the train rather than let them discover you 'ticketless'.

 

[maniacmartin]

It doesn't seem obvious to me. It's a rather grey area

 

[sheff1]

Surprised no ones pointed to the obvious ...

Probably because it isn't obvious. Many, many threads on here have covered this topic if you want to search for them.

 

[timbo58]

sorry: what I meant to say was it was obvious that someone who elected to buy a ticket on train should do so by approaching a member of staff on board rather than waiting to be discovered 'sans ticket'.

 

[fowler9]

sorry: what I meant to say was it was obvious that someone who elected to buy a ticket on train should do so by approaching a member of staff on board rather than waiting to be discovered 'sans ticket'.

I have to admit I tend to seek out the guard if I have got on a train without a ticket purely to avoid any ambiguity if the guard does a ticket check or I get to my destination without a ticket. Wouldn't have a clue what the byelaws and what have you say about this.

 

[timbo58]

I think that although its possible to still be reported for prosecution as a strict liability offence (i.e. no ticket before travel) if the passenger immediately seeks out the ticketing staff the they have shown (possibly) they did not intend to avoid the fare being paid provided they can actually pare the fare at that point in an acceptable form.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I would suggest that it would be impractical to purchase a ticket in the 3 to 4 minutes between Wolverton and Milton Keynes Central, as the Conductor will have operational duties to attend to so is unlikely to have time to carry out commercial duties as well. It could also be argued that Milton Keynes Central is another "opportunity" to buy a ticket, despite there only being a 10 minute connection out of one of the two trains each hour (30 minutes out of the other).

I would also suggest that the OP may be liable to a Penalty Fare or a Byelaw prosecution for failure to purchase a ticket prior to boarding if the TVM is working but the OP chooses not to make use of a method of payment which is available to him. Note that a prosecution under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 would not be appropriate as there is no obvious intent to avoid payment.

I would further suggest that the Train Manager on the Virgin service would be entitled to refuse sale of anything other than an undiscounted Anytime Single or Return as the passenger has passed up two "opportunities" to purchase a ticket.

This is all supposition on my part, of course, as I suspect that none of the TOCs would be willing to pursue the matter as far as Court for a "definitive" ruling as to whether a PF/Byelaw prosecution is permissible in such circumstances.

 

[fowler9]

I would suggest that it would be impractical to purchase a ticket in the 3 to 4 minutes between Wolverton and Milton Keynes Central, as the Conductor will have operational duties to attend to so is unlikely to have time to carry out commercial duties as well.

I would also suggest that the OP may be liable to a Penalty Fare or a Byelaw prosecution for failure to purchase a ticket prior to boarding if the TVM is working but the OP chooses not to make use of a method of payment which is available to him.

I would further suggest that the Train Manager on the Virgin service would be entitled to refuse sale of anything other than an undiscounted Anytime Single or Return as the passenger has passed up two "opportunities" to purchase a ticket.

This is all supposition on my part, of course, as I suspect that none of the TOCs would be willing to pursue the matter as far as Court for a "definitive" ruling as to whether a PF/Byelaw prosecution is permissible in such circumstances.

How would the guard or TOC prove that the OP could have paid by card but chose not to having offered to pay by cash?

 

[suley]

Interesting points you all make,

In the court of law, if they were to pursue for fare evasion for when my method of payment was not accepted at the machine, then they would have a hard job;
- They would have to prove I had my card on myself at the time
- The machine could be argued is not working order since it does not accept an acceptable form or payment ie sterling.

I would usually agree to go see the train conductor and seek him out, I am planning on doing this on the wolverton to mkc train hopefully, otherwise the virgin train seems more a challenge over the past few weeks the train has been very congested, so I would probably wait till he goes past as most times the conductor checks first class first then standard.

 

[Starmill]

there are those who are open to, or in favour of, not paying when they have a chance to and expect the railway to bend over backwards for them.

Of course. Because offering the facilities for people to pay in cash is totally 'bending over backwards'.

 

[fowler9]

Of course. Because offering the facilities for people to pay in cash is totally 'bending over backwards'.

At the same time as having machines that won't take some peoples cards.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

How would the guard or TOC prove that the OP could have paid by card but chose not to having offered to pay by cash?

In the court of law, if they were to pursue for fare evasion for when my method of payment was not accepted at the machine, then they would have a hard job;
- They would have to prove I had my card on myself at the time

That statement would be in the passenger''s Satement made during questionning by an Inspector, and then in the Witness Statement written up by that Inspector and probably in a similar one frpm yet another officer.

It seems clear to me that the passenger would want to volunteer that information when asked, as it forms the rationale for the situation they find themselves in.

 

[cuccir]

Just a short comment re Suley's original post - do make sure that you look after your tickets. It would be possible, though perhaps unlikely, that you would be prosecuted and fined for not having a ticket on you. It's an offence (though not one with a criminal record) to not have a valid ticket, and it's not a defence if this was accidental. I'd expect that most guards and train companies would not go down this route in such a case, but it certainly is a possibility.

With regards to cards, there is an obvious answer here: if you don't intend to use your card, don't take it with you. If you only have cash (or indeed any advertised payment method) then I think it's reasonable to get on board and expect to pay en route, or at your destination station, if the payment method is not accepted where you start out. I also wouldn't 'hunt down the guard' - they have a range of duties, of which selling tickets is only one. Clearly, you need to be alert for his/her presence - it's not enough to sit there meekly and wait to be asked if they come past - but I wouldn't go looking for him/her.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Of course. Because offering the facilities for people to pay in cash is totally 'bending over backwards'.

You can consider the point completely missed.

 

[suley]

Just a short comment re Suley's original post - do make sure that you look after your tickets. It would be possible, though perhaps unlikely, that you would be prosecuted and fined for not having a ticket on you. It's an offence (though not one with a criminal record) to not have a valid ticket, and it's not a defence if this was accidental. I'd expect that most guards and train companies would not go down this route in such a case, but it certainly is a possibility.

With regards to cards, there is an obvious answer here: if you don't intend to use your card, don't take it with you. If you only have cash (or indeed any advertised payment method) then I think it's reasonable to get on board and expect to pay en route, or at your destination station, if the payment method is not accepted where you start out. I also wouldn't 'hunt down the guard' - they have a range of duties, of which selling tickets is only one. Clearly, you need to be alert for his/her presence - it's not enough to sit there meekly and wait to be asked if they come past - but I wouldn't go looking for him/her.

Thanks, my plan is after work pack up and head to station and go to machine first. I will let you all know how i get on, My plan was if the machine does not take cash I will take a pic, board train. Get into MKC at around 43-45 past and then go to the next platform as my train is at 50 mins past. Since its a busy service I will sit down and usually he goes past me as he goes to check first class first, when he goes past I will get his attention. Its not as proactive as other have suggested going out to seek him but given its a busy service with few availible seats I think its acceptable but lets see what happens tonight