West Lothian buses

[route101]

I watched the ex2 in Linlithgow drive past , nobody on and even though there were folk in the stop at Linlithgow x towards Edinburgh it never stopped, maybe he got a wave by them though but I never seen that . later on at 5 ish going back at the cross it picked 1 up towards lithgow bridge and he was the only guy on then . Timetables in the stop to Edinburgh but not to lithgow bridge as I seen .

Looking to give one of the routes a try , dont want to be the only person onboard though

 

[Journeyman]

I say that as it looks like Lothian are going after Scotrail passengers rather than First bus on the West Lothian-Edinburgh sector

I spent quite a long time pondering this, as I took an EX2 from Linlithgow to Haymarket today. I was one of about five people on board, on a midday journey. It'll be interesting to see what they're like at peak periods.

First off, the vehicles are fantastic, spacious and comfortable, and the journey, although somewhat slower than the train, feels really quick due to the long non-stop section along the motorway. The only thing that seems problematic is that boarding wheelchairs and pushchairs looks like a complicated palaver, with doors and a lift in the middle. You can't just wheel them on like you can on other buses.

The route Lothian have chosen for this express service is interesting. It's partly dictated by height restrictions, but routing it through Springfield provides the area with a direct link to Edinburgh. Up until now, you'll have had to make your way into town for the train, or to change onto the 38, which is slow and inconvenient. I can imagine a lot of Springfield residents finding a direct door-to-door link an appealing prospect, and it might lure people off trains and out of cars.

In terms of getting people off the 38, I think there's two groups that are clear winners here - first of all, anyone who commutes from Linlithgow to RBS at Gogarburn. It's a hell of a lot faster and more comfortable than the 38, and if I was doing that journey, I'd dump the 38 like a hot brick in favour of a much more comfortable and speedy coach, even if it costs a bit more. The other group standing to benefit would be those travelling free on concession passes - they've tolerated the 38 over the train because it's free for them to use, even though it's much less comfortable and takes much longer. They now have a higher-quality alternative that still doesn't cost anything. The quality might also be good enough to get a few pensioners off the train.

I can't imagine many people commute all the way from Linlithgow to central Edinburgh on the 38, unless they're very, very price-sensitive - the 38 at peak times can take well over an hour and a half to do that journey. So...the majority of Linlithgow to Edinburgh commuters will use the train, but the EX2 is a (slightly) cheaper and still reasonably quick alternative, so it seems more likely to lure people off trains, than getting them off the 38.

It'll certainly be interesting to see how all this pans out. Will it get more people out of cars too? It might. If it grows public transport use overall, it can only be a good thing. The availability of integrated tickets allowing onward travel by tram and Lothian buses is an attractive feature. If I still lived in Linlithgow, I suspect I'd probably make use of it for day trips into Edinburgh, because if I was visiting locations outside the immediate vicinity of Haymarket or Waverley stations, it makes the onward travel easy and good value for money.

I live in Winchburgh, though, where we still have to put up with the snail's pace crawl into Edinburgh on the 38.

 

[In Focus]

I spent quite a long time pondering this, as I took an EX2 from Linlithgow to Haymarket today. I was one of about five people on board, on a midday journey. It'll be interesting to see what they're like at peak periods.

First off, the vehicles are fantastic, spacious and comfortable, and the journey, although somewhat slower than the train, feels really quick due to the long non-stop section along the motorway. The only thing that seems problematic is that boarding wheelchairs and pushchairs looks like a complicated palaver, with doors and a lift in the middle. You can't just wheel them on like you can on other buses.

The route Lothian have chosen for this express service is interesting. It's partly dictated by height restrictions, but routing it through Springfield provides the area with a direct link to Edinburgh. Up until now, you'll have had to make your way into town for the train, or to change onto the 38, which is slow and inconvenient. I can imagine a lot of Springfield residents finding a direct door-to-door link an appealing prospect, and it might lure people off trains and out of cars.

In terms of getting people off the 38, I think there's two groups that are clear winners here - first of all, anyone who commutes from Linlithgow to RBS at Gogarburn. It's a hell of a lot faster and more comfortable than the 38, and if I was doing that journey, I'd dump the 38 like a hot brick in favour of a much more comfortable and speedy coach, even if it costs a bit more. The other group standing to benefit would be those travelling free on concession passes - they've tolerated the 38 over the train because it's free for them to use, even though it's much less comfortable and takes much longer. They now have a higher-quality alternative that still doesn't cost anything. The quality might also be good enough to get a few pensioners off the train.

I can't imagine many people commute all the way from Linlithgow to central Edinburgh on the 38, unless they're very, very price-sensitive - the 38 at peak times can take well over an hour and a half to do that journey. So...the majority of Linlithgow to Edinburgh commuters will use the train, but the EX2 is a (slightly) cheaper and still reasonably quick alternative, so it seems more likely to lure people off trains, than getting them off the 38.

It'll certainly be interesting to see how all this pans out. Will it get more people out of cars too? It might. If it grows public transport use overall, it can only be a good thing. The availability of integrated tickets allowing onward travel by tram and Lothian buses is an attractive feature. If I still lived in Linlithgow, I suspect I'd probably make use of it for day trips into Edinburgh, because if I was visiting locations outside the immediate vicinity of Haymarket or Waverley stations, it makes the onward travel easy and good value for money.

I live in Winchburgh, though, where we still have to put up with the snail's pace crawl into Edinburgh on the 38.

Question is does Bathgate with a population of 21000,(10000 from outskirts not served)
And Linlithgow 13000 (large percentage of well off car owners) be enough to sustain these bearing in the percentage of public transport users currently on train?
I'd say you will be lucky to attract 100 users from each town in any given week .
How can any company justify that level of investment for such low numbers?

 

[LiviCrazy]

Genuine question here.

How are the non-Edinburgh linking services doing for LCB? When I see the 280, 281 and 287 in Livingston, even around 17:30-18:00ish, I’ve never seen more than a couple of passengers on board and not uncommon to see none.

From what I can see the X27/X28 seem to do well. The 275 does okay as does the X18. I’ve also not seen many on the X17 even at peak times.

 

[Journeyman]

Question is does Bathgate with a population of 21000,(10000 from outskirts not served)
And Linlithgow 13000 (large percentage of well off car owners) be enough to sustain these bearing in the percentage of public transport users currently on train?
I'd say you will be lucky to attract 100 users from each town in any given week .
How can any company justify that level of investment for such low numbers?

They obviously think there's scope for it to work, so we'll see what happens. ScotRail have been woefully unreliable recently, which might tempt some people to try an alternative. It'll take time to bed in and become established, but I'm of the opinion it's a bit less bonkers than it looked at first. Linlithgow to Edinburgh is one of the busiest commuter corridors in the whole of Scotland, and every train in peak periods is absolutely rammed. Personally, I can't stand crowds, and being on a coach with no standees and a reasonably comfortable seat would tempt me to switch.

 

[In Focus]

Genuine question here.

How are the non-Edinburgh linking services doing for LCB? When I see the 280, 281 and 287 in Livingston, even around 17:30-18:00ish, I’ve never seen more than a couple of passengers on board and not uncommon to see none.

From what I can see the X27/X28 seem to do well. The 275 does okay as does the X18. I’ve also not seen many on the X17 even at peak times.

Losing money hand over fist , any money taken during day on 280 and 275 which do quite well is blown away in the evening when buses run around transporting fresh air ...to many run close together in their attempt to aggressively remove any competition.
Wesy Lothian council are happy though saving loads

 

[In Focus]

They obviously think there's scope for it to work, so we'll see what happens. ScotRail have been woefully unreliable recently, which might tempt some people to try an alternative. It'll take time to bed in and become established, but I'm of the opinion it's a bit less bonkers than it looked at first. Linlithgow to Edinburgh is one of the busiest commuter corridors in the whole of Scotland, and every train in peak periods is absolutely rammed. Personally, I can't stand crowds, and being on a coach with no standees and a reasonably comfortable seat would tempt me to switch.

What will you do if bus gets busy then ?
Obviously they want vehicles full but will that put people off?
The population just makes you wonder who at LCB thinks it will ever be cost effective .

 

[Journeyman]

What will you do if bus gets busy then ?
Obviously they want vehicles full but will that put people off?
The population just makes you wonder who at LCB thinks it will ever be cost effective .

Well, clearly someone thinks it will work.

Genuine question here - do you want Lothian's expansions into West Lothian to fail? It seems like you do.

 

[In Focus]

Well, clearly someone thinks it will work.

Genuine question here - do you want Lothian's expansions into West Lothian to fail? It seems like you do.

Genuine answer -,yes I most definitely want it to fail and hope they disappear back to Edinburgh . Pretty sure most on here have already worked that out .
Aggressive attempt to take over an area with absolute no logic or reason funded by taxpayers money with potential to destroy smaller companies and now seemingly very reluctant to produce accounts for the venture !! Wonder why ?

 

[Journeyman]

Genuine answer -,yes I most definitely want it to fail and hope they disappear back to Edinburgh . Pretty sure most on here have already worked that out .
Aggressive attempt to take over an area with absolute no logic or reason funded by taxpayers money with potential to destroy smaller companies and now seemingly very reluctant to produce accounts for the venture !! Wonder why ?

Rather mean-spirited attitude, if you ask me. First are really lousy and don't offer good value for money, having contracted their West Lothian network a great deal in recent years. If a popular and profitable company wants to expand and invest, I have no problem with that at all. People have been asking Lothian to do this for years. The existing operators in West Lothian don't have a divine right to exist.

 

[In Focus]

Rather mean-spirited attitude, if you ask me. First are really lousy and don't offer good value for money, having contracted their West Lothian network a great deal in recent years. If a popular and profitable company wants to expand and invest, I have no problem with that at all. People have been asking Lothian to do this for years. The existing operators in West Lothian don't have a divine right to exist.

It's all about opinions mate , I dont agree with your summary of First(probably wrong thread) post 2015 they have one of the most modern fleets, wrong perception people of West Lothian asked for quicker more direct buses to centre, that was delivered,
See I would say your "Devine right" comment is rather" mean spirited" but that's your opinion so for me that's fair enough .

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Question is does Bathgate with a population of 21000,(10000 from outskirts not served)
And Linlithgow 13000 (large percentage of well off car owners) be enough to sustain these bearing in the percentage of public transport users currently on train?
I'd say you will be lucky to attract 100 users from each town in any given week .
How can any company justify that level of investment for such low numbers?

Think this is the question.

There's a relatively small number of people in Linlithgow. Appreciate the EX2 will have the benefit of serving Linlithgow Bridge and Springfield but otherwise, the train is so much faster. Yes, Scotrail has delays but so will the coach when there's some accident or temporary lights.

It strikes me as similar to the Transdev Leeds to Manchester service - there's a potential market but is it really sufficient to be sustainable?

 

[Journeyman]

It's all about opinions mate , I dont agree with your summary of First(probably wrong thread) post 2015 they have one of the most modern fleets, wrong perception people of West Lothian asked for quicker more direct buses to centre, that was delivered,
See I would say your "Devine right" comment is rather" mean spirited" but that's your opinion so for me that's fair enough .

Well, as far as I'm concerned, investment and expansion can only be a good thing. I live in Winchburgh, where last year First cut the frequency of buses in half. I suspect the only reason we got those buses back again was because First realised that Lothian might muscle in if they didn't reinstate them. There's evidence for you that there's room for Lothian here, and it's forcing First to up their game, which is long overdue.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Seen a few EXs today both Bathgate and Linlithgow ones and fair to say i seen 3 on at the most. LC are doing a bad job in west lothian overall with too many routes too close together. I like both First and Lothian and would like to see them both in West Lothian however there isnt a high enough demand for 2 large companies. Although i wonder how first selling operations will affect West lothian?

 

[In Focus]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, investment and expansion can only be a good thing. I live in Winchburgh, where last year First cut the frequency of buses in half. I suspect the only reason we got those buses back again was because First realised that Lothian might muscle in if they didn't reinstate them. There's evidence for you that there's room for Lothian here, and it's forcing First to up their game, which is long overdue.

I do not doubt Lothian being around is dictating others up their game and keep it there ,hence the cheaper weekly travel and now people in Winchburgh have a great service to Livingston and onwards to Whitburn much quicker than previous 22 ,and also a connection to EdinburghAirport .

 

[In Focus]

Seen a few EXs today both Bathgate and Linlithgow ones and fair to say i seen 3 on at the most. LC are doing a bad job in west lothian overall with too many routes too close together. I like both First and Lothian and would like to see them both in West Lothian however there isnt a high enough demand for 2 large companies. Although i wonder how first selling operations will affect West lothian?

Will they sell it though?
And now the Edinburgh tour is up and running that will certainly plug the lost revenue suffered in West Lothian due to LCB.
I'm with you in that had it been more amicable I really believe a network could have been devised where both companies could have done OK and would not have cost LCB near as much to set it up.

 

[Journeyman]

I do not doubt Lothian being around is dictating others up their game and keep it there ,hence the cheaper weekly travel and now people in Winchburgh have a great service to Livingston and onwards to Whitburn much quicker than previous 22 ,and also a connection to EdinburghAirport .

Absolutely. The 600 is a huge improvement on what we had before. I know it's partially down to the growth of Winchburgh and developer funding, but Lothian being ready to pounce must have been a significant factor.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Genuine answer -,yes I most definitely want it to fail and hope they disappear back to Edinburgh . Pretty sure most on here have already worked that out .

Oh 5th August 2018, First withdrew the 27 and 28 buses from Edinburgh, so if you get your wish (although I honestly can't see any good reason that you'd want a single operator to run if you have no other motive for LCB demise) what would happen with those wanting to travel to St Johns Hospital for example from Edinburgh? Given First withdrew on 5th August and LCB started the service I think 19th August. So it was not a competition issue for First to withdraw the 27/28 from running...

Why do you so badly want LCB to fail? Is it not better that places have more than 1 option? Would you like it if you only had one shop to shop at? One website to browse? Having just one tv channel. Competition is good, it forces others to step in to line and not get too big for their boots. Not saying that is the case with buses but if you have just one shop for example, there is nothing stopping them charging £3 for a pint of milk. I can't work out why you want LCB to fail though, as according to what you say, it has not had a negitive impact on First, so unless it is hurting you, why let it bother you? I assume you're either an employee of First looking out for your job if First were to leave (which would be understandable) or you're a shareholder in First (then this really is not the biggest worry). Other than that, I honestly can't work out why you'd want a company to fail so bad.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Aggressive attempt to take over an area with absolute no logic or reason funded by taxpayers money with potential to destroy smaller companies and now seemingly very reluctant to produce accounts for the venture !!

Not sure what makes you think that Lothian are disproportionally funded by taxpayers' money. Virtually all their routes operate commercially and their single fares are pitched at a reasonable level. Most other companies won't run routes without council subsidy and charge sky-high single fares to extract as much government compensation for concession travellers as they can get away with.

 

[Journeyman]

Not sure what makes you think that Lothian are disproportionally funded by taxpayers' money. Virtually all their routes operate commercially and their single fares are pitched at a reasonable level. Most other companies won't run routes without council subsidy and charge sky-high single fares to extract as much government compensation for concession travellers as they can get away with.

Yeah - Lothian make healthy profits which are reinvested in the business, have an excellent modern fleet, a strong network, and customer loyalty most bus operators would kill for. They're a hugely popular operator for good reason.

Personally, I'd be happy for them to completely destroy First. I briefly worked for FSE at their head office before I was forced out by the worst workplace bullying I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Genuine answer -,yes I most definitely want it to fail and hope they disappear back to Edinburgh . Pretty sure most on here have already worked that out .
Aggressive attempt to take over an area with absolute no logic or reason funded by taxpayers money with potential to destroy smaller companies and now seemingly very reluctant to produce accounts for the venture !! Wonder why ?

Firstly all bus companies ... lothian, first, stagecoach, national express...the list goes on, they all take public purse money with reimbursement for the use of blue cards, all of them!

Well, as far as I'm concerned, investment and expansion can only be a good thing. I live in Winchburgh, where last year First cut the frequency of buses in half. I suspect the only reason we got those buses back again was because First realised that Lothian might muscle in if they didn't reinstate them. There's evidence for you that there's room for Lothian here, and it's forcing First to up their game, which is long overdue.

Secondly, yes! it is forcing First to up there game, but if theres something I could tell WL residents it would be to place faith in the new sheriff in town and give them a chance...

Rather mean-spirited attitude, if you ask me. First are really lousy and don't offer good value for money, having contracted their West Lothian network a great deal in recent years. If a popular and profitable company wants to expand and invest, I have no problem with that at all. People have been asking Lothian to do this for years. The existing operators in West Lothian don't have a divine right to exist.

Thirdly, I can never honestly say that First have fares which are lousy, studying Glasgows fares and Edinburghs fares, First’s Prices aren't bad and are on par with what you see at Lothian, perhaps to that singles are a-little more expensive than they should be, but thats life! the service execution is what has let First in the past down, but as they say, old habits die hard! Those let downs aren't something thats going away, any company who has a fresh inception, maintains a reliable and clean service even if it isn't an original one with sparkling brand new buses, has reasonable fares and one which does not cater simply for out and out profit is one which people should put faith in!

Its a fight that we've seen First in before across the UK, don’t forget First also have a history of having aggressive tactics to push smaller operators out.

Absolutely. The 600 is a huge improvement on what we had before. I know it's partially down to the growth of Winchburgh and developer funding, but Lothian being ready to pounce must have been a significant factor.

I have also suspected since its introduction that it(600) was simply a move to block an equivalent LC skylink service.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Yeah - Lothian make healthy profits which are reinvested in the business, have an excellent modern fleet, a strong network, and customer loyalty most bus operators would kill for. They're a hugely popular operator for good reason.

Personally, I'd be happy for them to completely destroy First. I briefly worked for FSE at their head office before I was forced out by the worst workplace bullying I've ever seen in my life.

I personally wouldn't like using the word destroy aimed squarely at FSE, but “Lothian” operating throughout “The Lothians” has a certain feeling to it that it “just makes sense”...EAST/MID/WEST LOTHIAN - EDINBURGH CITY...

 

[Jordan Adam]

Just as a side note, before starting any rumours. I'd "suspect" the 38 will probably be due new vehicles in the next year or two.

Oh 5th August 2018, First withdrew the 27 and 28 buses from Edinburgh, so if you get your wish (although I honestly can't see any good reason that you'd want a single operator to run if you have no other motive for LCB demise) what would happen with those wanting to travel to St Johns Hospital for example from Edinburgh? Given First withdrew on 5th August and LCB started the service I think 19th August. So it was not a competition issue for First to withdraw the 27/28 from running...

Why do you so badly want LCB to fail? Is it not better that places have more than 1 option? Would you like it if you only had one shop to shop at? One website to browse? Having just one tv channel. Competition is good, it forces others to step in to line and not get too big for their boots. Not saying that is the case with buses but if you have just one shop for example, there is nothing stopping them charging £3 for a pint of milk. I can't work out why you want LCB to fail though, as according to what you say, it has not had a negitive impact on First, so unless it is hurting you, why let it bother you? I assume you're either an employee of First looking out for your job if First were to leave (which would be understandable) or you're a shareholder in First (then this really is not the biggest worry). Other than that, I honestly can't work out why you'd want a company to fail so bad.

The 23,24 & 25 offer 6 buses per hour from Edinburgh to St.John's, granted they don't go directly in to the site, however that move was to speed up journey times for the bulk of passengers. And the stops are still close enough to count as a link. So if the X27/X28 were pulled the link isn't lost as you seem to claim

LCB has just been poorly thought out with a real lack of care. LB & ECB are two fantastic operations (there are reason's we've went through before as to why ECB works now but anyway...) LCB has just been lack lustre. Competition is not always good, it's no good when in the case of West Lothian there's not enough demand in the market. In the end both First and Lothian are going to make losses which could've been better spent elsewhere. InFocus is right when he says First have not made any real looses thus far. Albeit i do feel he's being far too Anti-Lothian (admittedly something i can mistakenly come across as sometimes, but that's another matter).

Seen a few EXs today both Bathgate and Linlithgow ones and fair to say i seen 3 on at the most. LC are doing a bad job in west lothian overall with too many routes too close together. I like both First and Lothian and would like to see them both in West Lothian however there isnt a high enough demand for 2 large companies. Although i wonder how first selling operations will affect West lothian?

This is no surprise to me at all, i don't want them to fail - but in the end it was clearly the minute the services were announced that they were going to. I agree with your regarding competition in WL.

Yeah - Lothian make healthy profits which are reinvested in the business, have an excellent modern fleet, a strong network, and customer loyalty most bus operators would kill for. They're a hugely popular operator for good reason.

Personally, I'd be happy for them to completely destroy First. I briefly worked for FSE at their head office before I was forced out by the worst workplace bullying I've ever seen in my life.

Agree with the first half of your statement, can't comment on the section half regarding First, however Lothian are equally as bad when it comes to workplace bullying. I don't even think that has to be proven by any member on here at this point.

Firstly all bus companies ... lothian, first, stagecoach, national express...the list goes on, they all take public purse money from pensioners, druggies and alkies with reimbursement for them using there blue cards, all of them!

Secondly, yes! it is forcing First to up there game, but if theres something I could tell WL residents it would be to place faith in the new sheriff in town and give them a chance...

Thirdly, I can never honestly say that First have fares which are lousy, studying Glasgows fares and Edinburghs fares, First’s Prices aren't bad and are on par with what you see at Lothian, perhaps to that singles are a-little more expensive than they should be, but thats life! the service execution is what has let First in the past down, but as they say, old habits die hard! Those let downs aren't something thats going away, any company who has a fresh inception, maintains a reliable and clean service even if it isn't an original one with sparkling brand new buses, has reasonable fares and one which does not cater simply for out and out profit is one which people should put faith in!

Its a fight that we've seen First in before across the UK, don’t forget First also have a history of having aggressive tactics to push smaller operators out.

I have also suspected since its introduction that it(600) was simply a move to block an equivalent LC skylink service.

It depends how you look at it, technically speaking bus operators loose money through pass holders given that the reimbursement rates don't match up with standard fares, it's also part of the reason why fares can be seen as expensive sometimes because operators have to increase fares in order to make up for their loss through concessions.

Obviously it's making First up their game, no doubt about it. However the West Lothian network was already pretty good prior to LCB entering, especially post the August 2018 network review. I'm not sure why you'd want to tell residents to place faith in an operator with poorer routes and fares.

You're spot on about fares, most of the public think they have the worst fares ever. But in reality most places are on par once you take all factors in to consideration. Sadly it's just not realistic to expect the same fare for the same distance at two opposite ends of the country, the local economy and geography plays a big part. Not going to comment on fleet conditions as we've been there done that and i don't feel the need to drag it on.

The 600 likely is just an attempt to keep Lothian away. Likewise with the 38 having it's 15 minute frequency restored. They're defence tactics. Personally i didn't see the point in extending the 600 to Whitburn and would've rather the vehicles were used extending the 22 in to Edinburgh in order to finally offer Whitburn & Broxburn with a direct link to the city that requires no changes. Perhaps they could potentially look at merging the 22/X23 and then extending the 21 to Broxburn. Albeit Craigshill would loose their directly link to Edinburgh. Although FSE's network is off topic for this thread so i'll stop there!

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

The 23,24 & 25 offer 6 buses per hour from Edinburgh to St.John's, granted they don't go directly in to the site, however that move was to speed up journey times for the bulk of passengers. And the stops are still close enough to count as a link. So if the X27/X28 were pulled the link isn't lost as you seem to claim

The fact they don't run direct in to the grounds of the hospital is a major problem though. It is not great for those with mobility issues as while it's a few minutes walk for a fit person, it can be as much as a 20 minute walk for elderly or disabled person which might be too far. Also, 23 is only one that goes near the X27/X28 route and that of the previous 27/28 so yes, 24 and 25 go through but via Corstorphine rather than the corridor that is used at the moment.

LCB has just been poorly thought out with a real lack of care.

I will agree that it was not planned out the best it could have been but it has given people another option. It also is very new, not even a year old yet (exclude the 43) so hopefully some changes will come for the better.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The fact they don't run direct in to the grounds of the hospital is a major problem though. It is not great for those with mobility issues as while it's a few minutes walk for a fit person, it can be as much as a 20 minute walk for elderly or disabled person which might be too far. Also, 23 is only one that goes near the X27/X28 route and that of the previous 27/28 so yes, 24 and 25 go through but via Corstorphine rather than the corridor that is used at the moment.

I will agree that it was not planned out the best it could have been but it has given people another option. It also is very new, not even a year old yet (exclude the 43) so hopefully some changes will come for the better.

I'd agree, however the point you made was about the link between St John's and Edinburgh being lost when it wasn't really. I can't see them doing much that's good to the network, the launch of the EX1/EX2 and X17 show they still don't really know what they're doing. I should have noted above that when i've been referring to LCB in this thread i've been talking about the WL venture rather than the 43, although i think that was pretty clear anyway.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I would personally hope that in the next LCB sercixe change or phase that they would do
Something about the ticketing, at this point I sound like a broken record talking about a Ridacard for West Lothian so I won’t go on for so long

I already stressed my disappointment on the green arrow coaches not accepting ridacards though after giving it some thought I believe it’s more down to citylink’s sponsership that might have to do with it! Had they stuck with LCB fares it would think they would be more appealing, however if the Ex2 proves to be popular they might try and tackle the 38 corridor more confidently in the future.

I still use the X27/X28 locally when im visiting the west of the city and even the X17/X18 for the Corstorphine corridor from time to time, both services in my opinion seem to be doing okay, with the first ones being more popular! at this point it’s hard to determine what they can really try to do at this point. Fauldhouse and Blackridge are as far as they’ll go in the West, unless they introduce another 2xx service within West Lothian! or perhaps a Queensferry to Livingston service?

Would a night bus to Whitburn be out of the question? A N18?

 

[winston270twm]

Will they sell it though?
And now the Edinburgh tour is up and running that will certainly plug the lost revenue suffered in West Lothian due to LCB.
I'm with you in that had it been more amicable I really believe a network could have been devised where both companies could have done OK and would not have cost LCB near as much to set it up.

The whole of First UK Bus is up for sale. Additionally, since the Coast Capital GM, FGP have since confirmed that everything within the group is now up for sale 'at the right price'

 

[Train368]

It has upped First buses game since Lothian started. For example they stupidly reduced the 21 between Bathgate to Whitburn to every 60 minutes which left Armadale with only a direct hourly service to Whitburn which was ridiculous. Lothian has listened to passengers and extended the X18 to Whitburn but the issue is First now has increased the 21 again to 30 minutes which is the problem as in when Lothian gets the upper hand First will follow. Would make sense Lothian to extend X18 to Fauldhouse (again another stupid decision from First to stop 21 going to Fauldhouse) but again would it be worth it if First just follow their steps?

 

[overthewater]

So much smoke and mirrors on the thread, and it's clear were people loyalties lay. You could highlight the plain truths and there just get whitewashed.

Simple fact is this 27/28 were crap, and were only kept because of Scotrail controls, Original 27 went to Whitburn. The only links that are not provide by First are East Milder or Craigshill to Bathgate. Here is the thing if the 27/28 were so great why didn't LCB fully replace it? First had 4ph LCB only has 2pH. Big Q: where are the missing two buses per hour from LCB? still not happened. I think it's clear the demand isn't there for what First offered. With St John's, where First buses stops it's just stone throw away to the MacMillan centre doors and the Bangor hospital wards. Why do people need to go the Main doors is that the only part of the hospital people go to?

With First upping its game? Has first needed more new buses? No. Has First changed its fares? No. Has first changed its weeklys and monthly? Barely. Where has First upped its game? expect for the normal lets throw out a few extra buses. 21 is not a great example because the 21 wasn't the only direct bus between Whitburn and Armadale. Remember the No6, the council could have used the 30min layover to provide an extra trip but there was no demand, Why would extending the X18 to Fauldhouse help? 26 is still faster and ( went the way of the old 20) you can't run buses like throwing seeds. Back in August 2018 First got alot of responses from people about the changes and made a number of alterations, this part got very little complaints.

No38 is a strange one, it's really is a knee jerk reaction, apart from certain times there is no demand for a 15min service between linlithgow and Edinburgh, 20min would be better. If it was that good Lothian would have come already but maybe it's learnt its lesson from 27/28. Ex1 and Ex2 has stand on its own two feet it won't get much cross passenger help from Lothian network. Pensions might use the Ex1 going into Edinburgh and Change at haymarket but would there do so on the return trip since you need to wait around or just jump on the X18 without having to wait around at haymarket?

Competition is good, but only when the other side are pulling its weight. LCB are lazy, misguided and has disappointed many many people, ( read the above and your see where people have been disappointed ) with its backwards routes and its strange policy of no proper weekly/monthly tickets, and no M-tickets don;t cut the mustards. It's why First still has managed to keep its passengers...

Honest Q: What has LCB brought to the table? It really feels like Lothian Heart isn't in this adventure.

I do believe there is enough demand for two companies but both will need to up their game to grab new passengers IE Car Drivers.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It has upped First buses game since Lothian started. For example they stupidly reduced the 21 between Bathgate to Whitburn to every 60 minutes which left Armadale with only a direct hourly service to Whitburn which was ridiculous. Lothian has listened to passengers and extended the X18 to Whitburn but the issue is First now has increased the 21 again to 30 minutes which is the problem as in when Lothian gets the upper hand First will follow. Would make sense Lothian to extend X18 to Fauldhouse (again another stupid decision from First to stop 21 going to Fauldhouse) but again would it be worth it if First just follow their steps?

What an odd example. I don't really agree that the X18 being extended is evidence of them listening to passengers given how lack lustre the rest of the network is, but rather perhaps them showing a tiny ounce of common sense while trying to expand their market coverage. The X18 going to Fauldhouse would be pointless the X17 covers the Broxburn market, while the 26 covers the bulk of West Lothian and the train covers the Edinburgh market.

I also don't agree the 21 being taken out of Fauldhouse was a stupid thing given the link is still covered by the 26. Keep in mind First's 2018 changes were an attempt to reduce the number of Edinburgh routes in direct competition with the train. What's the point in having a slow bus from Fauldhouse to Edinburgh when the train covers this market. It's far more logical to have a route that stays within West Lothian and then offer connections from Livingston Town Centre.

As mentioned above already the only real flaw i see in the First network is the 22 not going in to Edinburgh and the extension of the 600 to Whitburn.

The EX1 would've been far better operating to Broxburn/Whitburn rather than Bathgate, it might've actually made an impact that way. I just don't see the point for yet another Edinburgh-Bathgate bus route. It irritates me as you see all the positive moves Lothian make within the city and East Lothian network - and yet here they are making a pigs **** of West Lothian.