Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[LothianBusesPh]

I personally can't see a bus going around Muirpark again. Was the route not changed to turn at the roundabout because of issues with the loop? I seem to remember a few buses having to drive very carefully to get by.

Yes, that did explain my suggestions IF it were not to go to Windygoul which I still think should be the case.

The taboo subject of 1076 can be put to bed now. It has officially been removed from the Lothian official fleet list. The Electric Wright Singles are still on there.

Lothian Fleet List Q2 2022

Lothian Buses - Local bus services in and around Edinburgh

www.lothianbuses.com

Interested about the Streetairs and why Lothian don't just withdraw them for good?

 

[tattyseal]

From what I can see, variations have been registered of the 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 16, 22, 23, 27, 30 and 44 commencing from the 24th July. I'd speculate that the bridges services might stray away from the mound to ease congestion, not too sure about the 10, 16 and 44 though. Time will tell, I imagine the service change will be announced fairly soon as it is approaching quick

 

[Highland050261]

Yes, that did explain my suggestions IF it were not to go to Windygoul which I still think should be the case.


Interested about the Streetairs and why Lothian don't just withdraw them for good?

Possibly the book value is still too high to scrap them.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Possibly the book value is still too high to scrap them.

Possibly the case.

 

[cammyeaston]

A new 'bus gate' has been implemented in Wallyford with the aim of speeding up journey times in the area.

The previous road and stops through Wallyford Park & Ride have now been closed and new stops have been erected on The Loan. This is for a 6 month trial period, during which time only buses, taxis and cycles will be permitted to cross the railway bridge on The Loan, with all remaining traffic travelling via Strawberry Corner Roundabout.

This has been met with anger by some locals in the area who argue that it serves little to no benefit to anyone and will increase congestion and indeed dangers at the roundabout which is notorious for poor sighting capability.

I'd be interested to know the opinion of ECB/LB/Prentice drivers who operate in the area.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A new 'bus gate' has been implemented in Wallyford with the aim of speeding up journey times in the area.

The previous road and stops through Wallyford Park & Ride have now been closed and new stops have been erected on The Loan. This is for a 6 month trial period, during which time only buses, taxis and cycles will be permitted to cross the railway bridge on The Loan, with all remaining traffic travelling via Strawberry Corner Roundabout.

This has been met with anger by some locals in the area who argue that it serves little to no benefit to anyone and will increase congestion and indeed dangers at the roundabout which is notorious for poor sighting capability.

I'd be interested to know the opinion of ECB/LB/Prentice drivers who operate in the area.

Talking solely about the bus issues this greatly helps avoid a silly manoeuvre into a site that lets be honest is not used enough to justify it. By leaving it on the main road it can still serve the site without wasting as much time, in most cases still continuing on without stopping.

I hope this is implemented permanently and the now out of use stops is eventually turned into an extension of the car park.

Regarding the cars now much longer does it really take to drive in a car all the way round? Maybe 30 seconds to a minute at absolute most? If it was possible the roundabout should have signals put up. The adjacent land to the south of the roundabout could allow this to happen.

 

[cammyeaston]

Talking solely about the bus issues this greatly helps avoid a silly manoeuvre into a site that lets be honest is not used enough to justify it. By leaving it on the main road it can still serve the site without wasting as much time, in most cases still continuing on without stopping.

I hope this is implemented permanently and the now out of use stops is eventually turned into an extension of the car park.

Regarding the cars now much longer does it really take to drive in a car all the way round? Maybe 30 seconds to a minute at absolute most? If it was possible the roundabout should have signals put up. The adjacent land to the south of the roundabout could allow this to happen.

In an ideal world, the roundabout would be removed, the railway tunneled over and a proper crossroads installed with adequate signalling but I doubt we'll see that.

A local Facebook page had a quote from a local Councillor which stated that electric bus charging facilities were intended to be installed which would allow electric bus services to Edinburgh/Glasgow/Dundee/Aberdeen. Be advised I've been unable to verify this claim, but it would suggest that Ember are perhaps in talks with ELC regarding an expansion?

If this was indeed to come about then it would be a worthwhile endeavour overall IMO.

 

[computerSaysNo]

A new 'bus gate' has been implemented in Wallyford with the aim of speeding up journey times in the area.

The previous road and stops through Wallyford Park & Ride have now been closed and new stops have been erected on The Loan. This is for a 6 month trial period, during which time only buses, taxis and cycles will be permitted to cross the railway bridge on The Loan, with all remaining traffic travelling via Strawberry Corner Roundabout.

The rerouting I think is definitely a good idea, going round the little loop just wastes time.

Talking solely about the bus issues this greatly helps avoid a silly manoeuvre into a site that lets be honest is not used enough to justify it.

Quite.
Fair enough I'm not a driver but on all the times I've been on a bus through that area I've never once seen anyone get on in either direction.
I think part of the issue is that journey times to Edinburgh are far too long, you'd probably save at least half an hour by continuing driving on the A1.
I had suggested the X5 be rerouted through the P&R to give an express service. I think if the P&R had some upgraded facilities (e.g. indoor seating, bathrooms, ...) it could be marketed as an interchange point between the Edinburgh Express and the Edinburgh via Musselburgh services, but I'm not sure how many people normally change services in that area anyway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Service changes now on line. I'm sure someone far cleverer than me we'll pop a link up soon

The petition brigade have not succeeded in in returning the 22 to its former route but they are rerouting the 16 via Leith Street and Waverley station in both directions which is a definite win and should have been done in the first place as I'm sure I said on here at the time


For those wanting some relief from the nightmare round bus stop pn you have got it although I see they have put an awful lot of stuff right back to bus stop p k instead rather than using the adjacent p.m. for a couple of services which is perhaps going to come back to bite them



Slightly surprised they've not taken the opportunity to tweak the 276 but appreciate this was a short notice emergency change. Much to my surprise they have not done anything about the absolute carnage round chamber Street and the mound etc due to the North bridge diversions. I wonder if this means that they are going to get it open in time for the festival or if we're just going to have to put up with it

Various minor timetable amendments and frequency reductions due to to driver resourcing issues

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Service changes now on line. I'm sure someone far cleverer than me we'll pop a link up soon

The petition brigade have not succeeded in in returning the 22 to its former route but they are rerouting the 16 via Leith Street and Waverley station in both directions which is a definite win and should have been done in the first place as I'm sure I said on here at the time


For those wanting some relief from the nightmare round bus stop pn you have got it although I see they have put an awful lot of stuff right back to bus stop p k instead rather than using the adjacent p.m. for a couple of services which is perhaps going to come back to bite them



Slightly surprised they've not taken the opportunity to tweak the 276 but appreciate this was a short notice emergency change. Much to my surprise they have not done anything about the absolute carnage round chamber Street and the mound etc due to the North bridge diversions. I wonder if this means that they are going to get it open in time for the festival or if we're just going to have to put up with it

Various minor timetable amendments and frequency reductions due to to driver resourcing issues

Using PM for all of those buses isn’t really an option unfortunately as the queue at PN often tails back to PM or blocks the road completely.

Good to see the 11 back to normal route though, and the 16 change should’ve been done before. I believe the 16 will stop where the 25 does in both directions at Waverley Steps/Leith Street, so PM/JD towards Silverknowes and JA/PP towards Torphin - again another reason why PM wasn’t an option.

It’s a start, but hopefully the city centre stops are completely redone soon.

 

[tattyseal]

Yep here we go! Service change now up

Service 3 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 4 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 5 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 7 - Evening frequency will change to every 30 minutes
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 8 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 10 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 11 - Leith Walk will be partially reopened. Journeys will operate via Leith Walk and Pilrig Street in both directions.
No timetable change.

Service 16 -
Rerouted in the city centre via Princes Street and Leith Street. In response to customer feedback, a direct link will be restore from The Shore to Waverley Steps for onward rail connections.
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 19 will no longer stop at Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps. It will continue to stop at PK on Princes Street and ZK on Waterloo Place.
No timetable change.

Service 22 - Marked as no longer stopping at PN and using PK instead. Also has a hefty timetable cut
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 23 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 27 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 30 - Saturday frequency changed to 12 minutes
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 44 has been marked as no changes however I noticed the VOSA registration was changed, the timetable has also been changed.
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 49 will no longer stop at Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps. It will continue to stop at GL on George Street and JD on Leith Street.
No timetable change.

Services 15, 22, 43, X18, X27, X28
Will now stop at Stop PK instead of Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps.
Timetables not changed.

That's all I can see for now

 

[Blindtraveler]

Maybe one of the drivers could confirm but a former colleague who continues to use the 22 between stenhouse and the town says it is extremely quiet these days and and is likely to fall victim to the death of a thousand cuts treatment, which it looks like it is.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Maybe one of the drivers could confirm but a former colleague who continues to use the 22 between stenhouse and the town says it is extremely quiet these days and and is likely to fall victim to the death of a thousand cuts treatment which it looks like it is

I use it on a frequent basis and can tell you that just isn't completely true. Many services fill up through the area and it certainly is still used quite a lot.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is good to hear. I suspect my former colleague was judging it by the loadings it previously got when it ran full route but never the less, it is on its Western extremity a vital connection and whilst there may be other buses up and down the west approach and covering some other of its sections there are bits of it that simply wouldn't have a city centre service at all if it were decimated


I suspect although could be again wrong that the revised route and frequency has not been placed long enough for them to do some proper passenger figure modelling hence the fact that they have used it as an easy scapegoat for frequency cuts this time in light of wattage of resources and will be able in future 2 to adjust its frequency accordingly to how busy or not it is

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’ve now had it confirmed that the 16 will indeed stop at PM/JD towards Silverknowes and JA/PP towards Torphin. It was fully expected and is now confirmed.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Yep here we go! Service change now up

Service 3 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 4 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 5 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 7 - Evening frequency will change to every 30 minutes
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 8 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 10 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 11 - Leith Walk will be partially reopened. Journeys will operate via Leith Walk and Pilrig Street in both directions.
No timetable change.

Service 16 -
Rerouted in the city centre via Princes Street and Leith Street. In response to customer feedback, a direct link will be restore from The Shore to Waverley Steps for onward rail connections.
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 19 will no longer stop at Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps. It will continue to stop at PK on Princes Street and ZK on Waterloo Place.
No timetable change.

Service 22 - Marked as no longer stopping at PN and using PK instead. Also has a hefty timetable cut
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 23 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 27 - Minor timetable change
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 30 - Saturday frequency changed to 12 minutes
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 44 has been marked as no changes however I noticed the VOSA registration was changed, the timetable has also been changed.
Old Timetable vs New Timetable

Service 49 will no longer stop at Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps. It will continue to stop at GL on George Street and JD on Leith Street.
No timetable change.

Services 15, 22, 43, X18, X27, X28
Will now stop at Stop PK instead of Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps.
Timetables not changed.

That's all I can see for now

I feel as though the routes and services at the east end of Princes Street are too confusing now. There is little consistency through it all, especially with the North Bridge diversions.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Services 15, 22, 43, X18, X27, X28
Will now stop at Stop PK instead of Stop PN on Princes Street in efforts to reduce congestion at Waverley Steps.
Timetables not changed.

That's all I can see for now

Makes sense. Currently 17 daytime services serve PN (excluding the two peak expresses) whilst 4 serving PK. Evens it out to 10 at PK and 9 at PN. Hopefully scheduled in a way to avoid congestion at Pk.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I feel as though the routes and services at the east end of Princes Street are too confusing now. There is little consistency through it all, especially with the North Bridge diversions.

I may be tempted to agree.
I think there was a proposal a while ago to remove the stops at Scott Monument and use the extra space up spread out the remaining stops? So buses would only have two stops on Princes Street, at West and East, rather than the current three.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I may be tempted to agree.
I think there was a proposal a while ago to remove the stops at Scott Monument and use the extra space up spread out the remaining stops? So buses would only have two stops on Princes Street, at West and East, rather than the current three.

I think for me if you look at stops like PA only having one bus, that needs to change. The 24 in my opinion could probably run directly from Lothian Road to Frederick Street.

PD and PN are the stops eastbound which have too many buses, westbound is much worse.

 

[Porty]

Using PM for all of those buses isn’t really an option unfortunately as the queue at PN often tails back to PM or blocks the road completely.

Good to see the 11 back to normal route though, and the 16 change should’ve been done before. I believe the 16 will stop where the 25 does in both directions at Waverley Steps/Leith Street, so PM/JD towards Silverknowes and JA/PP towards Torphin - again another reason why PM wasn’t an option.

It’s a start, but hopefully the city centre stops are completely redone soon.

Standing at stop PM for many a time a for a few minutes whilst the front bus loads, with my bus immediately behind not allowing passengers to board, has always seemed to be an annoyance and seems to create huge delays at busy times.

Has it ever been considered to allow 2 buses to load at once at this particular stop? Maybe some paintwork on the footway for bus 2 to utilise. It seems to me that it may be even cost effective having a footway based staff member to organise this, especially in the late afternoon and/or during the festival. At present huge delays are being caused here and there ought to be a better way to organise it.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Standing at stop PM for many a time a for a few minutes whilst the front bus loads, with my bus immediately behind not allowing passengers to board, has always seemed to be an annoyance and seems to create huge delays at busy times.

Has it ever been considered to allow 2 buses to load at once at this particular stop? Maybe some paintwork on the footway for bus 2 to utilise. It seems to me that it may be even cost effective having a footway based staff member to organise this, especially in the late afternoon and/or during the festival. At present huge delays are being caused here and there ought to be a better way to organise it.

Not this debate again.....
What's required is another bus stop or faster passenger loading.
Non-Edinburghers claim it's common sense to allow parallel boarding and buses cutting in front of others. But the simple rule here is that a bus stop is where buses stop and it's understood that everyone can board (eg with special needs).
That's all there is to it. You wait in a queue at the stop and board there. Not halfway down the street or wherever you fancy according to your own judgement or mobility.

 

[eh1]

On the topic of stops, I've found PR is very bad in the peak. I've sat on South St David St for 2 light cycles waiting where 11,16 and Stagecoaches have been taking on large numbers of people. And its right by the junction so buses end up pushing oit and blocking the whole road!!

 

[LothianBusesPh]

A new 'bus gate' has been implemented in Wallyford with the aim of speeding up journey times in the area.

The previous road and stops through Wallyford Park & Ride have now been closed and new stops have been erected on The Loan. This is for a 6 month trial period, during which time only buses, taxis and cycles will be permitted to cross the railway bridge on The Loan, with all remaining traffic travelling via Strawberry Corner Roundabout.

This has been met with anger by some locals in the area who argue that it serves little to no benefit to anyone and will increase congestion and indeed dangers at the roundabout which is notorious for poor sighting capability.

I'd be interested to know the opinion of ECB/LB/Prentice drivers who operate in the area.

Thats interesting, is it still classed as a Park and Ride?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I think for me if you look at stops like PA only having one bus, that needs to change. The 24 in my opinion could probably run directly from Lothian Road to Frederick Street.

The 24 could serve another bus stop on Princes Street; it’s not like it‘ll affect the traffic anymore!

 

[LothianBusesPh]

To those interested that is the plan, they're also wanting permission to integrate a Journey Hub to Wallyford, this could possibly help our manifestation to bring back the Service 15 to Blindwells?

I also think there is a possibility the X5 comes off at Strawberry corner to serve the Bus Gate?

In an ideal world, the roundabout would be removed, the railway tunneled over and a proper crossroads installed with adequate signalling but I doubt we'll see that.

A local Facebook page had a quote from a local Councillor which stated that electric bus charging facilities were intended to be installed which would allow electric bus services to Edinburgh/Glasgow/Dundee/Aberdeen. Be advised I've been unable to verify this claim, but it would suggest that Ember are perhaps in talks with ELC regarding an expansion?

If this was indeed to come about then it would be a worthwhile endeavour overall IMO.

It is listed above on the plan so it could be a possibility, I didn't make the plan it's from the East Lothian Council.

https://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news/20209813.bus-gates-piloted-loan-wallyford-six-month-trial/

CARS will be banned from using a road next to a park and ride site from as early as next month as part of a six-month bus experiment in East Lothian.

Councillors approved a swathe of new traffic regulations to clamp down on ‘irresponsible’ drivers at a virtual meeting of East Lothian Council’s minority Labour administration’s cabinet on Tuesday.

And Councillor Norman Hampshire, council leader, promised residents that there would be a “wholesale review” carried out across the county’s town centres to ensure they were safe for pedestrians and cyclists.

In the biggest change to traffic rules in the county, cabinet agreed to apply for a six-month experimental traffic order to pilot bus gates at The Loan, next to Wallyford Park and Ride.
The move, which is expected to be introduced from next month, will mean that only buses, taxis and cycles can use the road, which connects Haddington Road and Wallyford Main Street, and currently provides a through route for all traffic and access to the station car park.

As part of the Spaces for People programme in 2020, a proposal for the creation of a bus gate on The Loan was considered by community councils and the area partnership in order to create space for pedestrians and cyclists on the narrow section at the bridge, but it was not implemented at the time due to lack of availability of contractors.
The new plans are being taken forward under a separate funding stream and aim to reduce bus journey times, as well as improve conditions for other road users.
During the introduction of a bus gate on The Loan for an initial period of six months, only buses, taxis and cycles will be permitted to travel the full length of The Loan, with all vehicles accessing the station car park from Salters Road.
The houses and businesses on The Loan will also keep their existing accesses via Salters Road.


The existing bus stops will be moved from the current ‘bus link’ to The Loan, helping to create a ‘Journey Hub’, with travellers able to interchange between local buses and longer-distance buses, use the train and eventually access bike hire facilities.
Cabinet also agreed to apply for a string of traffic regulation orders across communities which would see parking restrictions introduced in streets around East Lothian Community Hospital, Haddington, and residential streets in North Berwick, Tranent and Musselburgh where “inconsiderate drivers” were reportedly causing issues.
Three disabled bays outside West Barns Village Hall will be made enforceable after reports people were ignoring the blue badge signs and additional restrictions on the access road to Tyninghame coastal car park will be introduced.
Mr Hampshire said that many of the orders being put forward might seem small but they would make a huge difference to communities, particularly older people and children.
And he warned that more changes would be coming.
He said: “It is time to make sure traffic flow can be looked at in a way to make town centres and communities safer for people to walk and cycle.
“We need to have a wholesale review to make sure our town centres are still a pleasant place to visit.”

 

[Grumpyscot]

Given the new "Ring Road" round Wallyford, which already has bus stops erected and which goes past the new primary school, do you think the 44 might be rerouted to serve the new houses / primary school and soon to be secondary school at Strawberry Corner? (PS - can't see the "ring road" being used much by through traffic given the extra mileage and vast number of speed bumps!)

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Given the new "Ring Road" round Wallyford, which already has bus stops erected and which goes past the new primary school, do you think the 44 might be rerouted to serve the new houses / primary school and soon to be secondary school at Strawberry Corner? (PS - can't see the "ring road" being used much by through traffic given the extra mileage and vast number of speed bumps!)

I think it could either be alternate journeys or school times only. Unless they make links with another bus to Wallyford from the bus gate, e.g. Links to X6, it means passengers to Wallyford High Street can go on that bus and the Service 44 can be lopped then into Fa' Side Avenue.

On non-linked journeys it could go normally, or, it could be looped High Street first then round from the other side terminating at the school or one of the later bus stops, non-peak only. After, say, 7:30 it can do the current route.

 

[cammyeaston]

Given the new "Ring Road" round Wallyford, which already has bus stops erected and which goes past the new primary school, do you think the 44 might be rerouted to serve the new houses / primary school and soon to be secondary school at Strawberry Corner? (PS - can't see the "ring road" being used much by through traffic given the extra mileage and vast number of speed bumps!)

I can confirm that the speed bumps are not only plentiful but also downright treacherous. It's bad enough taking a car over them, I wouldn't want to take a bus. Perhaps if Lothian/Prentice lobbied ELC into lowering/reducing the speed bumps, a service could be provided.

In terms of service provision, I'd expected that perhaps the 44 could be extended from Fa'side Avenue on all journeys (haven't thought ahead enough about Whitecraig journeys) to run through the entirety of the new road and use the roundabout at Strawberry Corner Garden Centre to turn. In an ideal world, there's plenty land there so a bay could be built for layovers. X44 could also be rerouted via the ring road seeing as the X6 suitably serves Salters Road.

I've lived here for 3 years now and I wait with bated breath to find out if/when I will get a bus service on the road.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

In terms of service provision, I'd expected that perhaps the 44 could be extended from Fa'side Avenue on all journeys (haven't thought ahead enough about Whitecraig journeys) to run through the entirety of the new road and use the roundabout at Strawberry Corner Garden Centre to turn. In an ideal world, there's plenty land there so a bay could be built for layovers. X44 could also be rerouted via the ring road seeing as the X6 suitably serves Salters Road.

Yes, I totally agree. I’d also look at rerouting the N113 to serve the new road/estate. This wouldn’t take much (if any) extra time and avoid it doubling back on itself.

A daytime express service via the new road/estate I think could be useful, but in any case the X6 should remain running via Salters Road and Fa’side.

 

[cammyeaston]

Yes, I totally agree. I’d also look at rerouting the N113 to serve the new road/estate. This wouldn’t take much (if any) extra time and avoid it doubling back on itself.

A daytime express service via the new road/estate I think could be useful, but in any case the X6 should remain running via Salters Road and Fa’side.

I've often drifted off into fantasy land and wondered what would be good and what wouldn't. An idea I'd come up with was a new road bridge crossing the ECML at Dolphingstone which could allow a new express service, X8 if you will, to run as the X6 from Edinburgh to Wallyford and run via the new road to Strawberry Corner Garden Centre, then turning right and heading along the A199 before crossing the ECML and serving the new housing areas in Prestonpans before continuing to a new terminus point in Blindwells. This could be achieved even without the new fantasy bridge by using existing roads but the new bridge would solve a lot of problems, reducing congestion through Wallyford and at Strawberry Corner Roundabout as a good portion of the traffic in Wallyford is headed to Prestonpans. Less congestion, less delays on the buses, better service!