Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[eh1]

Not hugely familiar with Lothian Buses operations. There is regular mention of "rush buses" in posts. Is there a sizeable number of vehicles retained for peak-only operation?

Yes, there's the limited stop X routes and a number of the core services also get additional buses/boards during peak times.

 

[GordonT]

Yes, there's the limited stop X routes and a number of the core services also get additional buses/boards during peak times.

I wonder what percentage of the costs of tooling up for these extra provisions are covered by the income they actually earn.

Yes, there's the limited stop X routes and a number of the core services also get additional buses/boards during peak times.

 

[ChrisPJ]

That's a strange thing to say, additional peak vehicles are surely an established feature of most urban bus operations and are there mainly to cope with passenger demand, as well as maintain headways when congestion from additional traffic volumes increases the round trip journey time.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I wonder what percentage of the costs of tooling up for these extra provisions are covered by the income they actually earn.

They wouldn't run if they weren't in the interests of the business.

 

[ScotRail158725]

They wouldn't run if they weren't in the interests of the business.

Took the words right out my mouth. Although i have to say in my opinion there seems to be not enough, im not talking express routes but an extra bus or two down certain corridors could prove useful

 

[stevenedin]

Following on from something mentioned on the McGill’s Scotland East page, the Council tendered 63 running from South Queensferry to Balerno only seems busy on the South Queensferry to Gyle section.

I think that Lothian could at some point when resources allow, extend the 35 there and then redirect the 35 to serve Hermiston Gait and Gyle Centre before heading along Bankhead Drive, Broomhouse Drive then up Saughton Road to join the current road from Saughton Mains onwards.

This would cover for the loss of the 63 if it was cut back to Gyle Centre from South Queensferry and most likely would gain more passengers due to the 35 being more frequent.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Following on from something mentioned on the McGill’s Scotland East page, the Council tendered 63 running from South Queensferry to Balerno only seems busy on the South Queensferry to Gyle section.

I think that Lothian could at some point when resources allow, extend the 35 there and then redirect the 35 to serve Hermiston Gait and Gyle Centre before heading along Bankhead Drive, Broomhouse Drive then up Saughton Road to join the current road from Saughton Mains onwards.

This would cover for the loss of the 63 if it was cut back to Gyle Centre from South Queensferry and most likely would gain more passengers due to the 35 being more frequent.

Any thoughts on this?

Don't think having the 35 run via the A8 (with bus lanes now removed) would do it any favours with reliability. Extending the 22 might be a better option.

 

[stevenedin]

Don't think having the 35 run via the A8 (with bus lanes now removed) would do it any favours with reliability. Extending the 22 might be a better option.

I never thought of the 22 that would probably be better.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Following on from something mentioned on the McGill’s Scotland East page, the Council tendered 63 running from South Queensferry to Balerno only seems busy on the South Queensferry to Gyle section.

I think that Lothian could at some point when resources allow, extend the 35 there and then redirect the 35 to serve Hermiston Gait and Gyle Centre before heading along Bankhead Drive, Broomhouse Drive then up Saughton Road to join the current road from Saughton Mains onwards.

This would cover for the loss of the 63 if it was cut back to Gyle Centre from South Queensferry and most likely would gain more passengers due to the 35 being more frequent.

Any thoughts on this?

It wouldn’t work as the 35 is too busy to Heriot-Watt now.

For me they’d be better combining the 20 and 63 into one route from South Queensferry to Chesser, with something else to/from the city picking up Ratho. Half hourly Chesser to Gyle, with hourly extensions to South Queensferry. But that’s getting too off topic for this thread.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Following on from something mentioned on the McGill’s Scotland East page, the Council tendered 63 running from South Queensferry to Balerno only seems busy on the South Queensferry to Gyle section.

Speaking to a few people I know who live in Currie, they have said that runs between Edinburgh Park & Currie usually have "10-15 people onboard".

 

[JurassicMan]

So its been a week since LCB altered the West Lothian network and reduced services. The early signs are that they haven't just shot themselves in the foot. It is more akin to blowing off both legs. The X27/X28 are running together on many occassions which inevitably leads to one near empty vehicle. Meanwhile the competition is arriving/departing Livingston Centre with full buses from areas previously served by both.

I'm not sure the change of zones and price increase from East Calder to Livingston has been helpful either.

There have been some strange decisions by those making these type of decisions and you just have to think drivers at LCB are wondering what they are up to in the area.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Following on from something mentioned on the McGill’s Scotland East page, the Council tendered 63 running from South Queensferry to Balerno only seems busy on the South Queensferry to Gyle section.

I think that Lothian could at some point when resources allow, extend the 35 there and then redirect the 35 to serve Hermiston Gait and Gyle Centre before heading along Bankhead Drive, Broomhouse Drive then up Saughton Road to join the current road from Saughton Mains onwards.

This would cover for the loss of the 63 if it was cut back to Gyle Centre from South Queensferry and most likely would gain more passengers due to the 35 being more frequent.

Any thoughts on this?

Honestly, I think the 63 has potential “If” it was handed back to Lothian (or LCB preferably), since Lothian already have a market in Balerno, Riccarton, Gyle and Queensferry it could work if it was integrated back into the main Lothian network, I remember back in 2014 when Lothian won the 63 tender and seeing the bus busy because Lothian advertised it beyond belief on social media as their grand return to Queensferry! not sure if it played a big part of it but i believe that level of confidence must have something to do with it!

if it was down to me, I’d try win back the 20/63 and intergrade it into the LCB network, leave the 20 as it is with the late workings to Hermiston Gait, and improve the 63, start off with an hourly service from Balerno to Queensferry with peaks only running to Herriot Watt! introduce a late evening service from Queensferry to Hermiston Gait (time it with the 20 so we have a half hour frequency between Gyle and Ratho Station) and see how it plays out, also it would give Kirkliston and Ratho residents another chance at a Lothian Service.

So its been a week since LCB altered the West Lothian network and reduced services. The early signs are that they haven't just shot themselves in the foot. It is more akin to blowing off both legs. The X27/X28 are running together on many occassions which inevitably leads to one near empty vehicle. Meanwhile the competition is arriving/departing Livingston Centre with full buses from areas previously served by both.

I'm not sure the change of zones and price increase from East Calder to Livingston has been helpful either.

There have been some strange decisions by those making these type of decisions and you just have to think drivers at LCB are wondering what they are up to in the area.

While I understand some hard decisions had to be made to survive in West Lothian, I will never understand why the X27 had to come out of Whitburn, surely the loss of the 276/280 would of been enough to free up buses to maintain the old frequency of the X27/X28, but the loss of Dedridge West, Deans South, Seafield, Blackburn etc has just caused more upcry if anything!

The 43 and X18 are at least fine as they are at least improvements of their former selves, it’s great to see that LCB at least know their strengths! although personally I would of maybe split the X18 at Armadale and had some buses run to Blackridge to cover the loss at that end.

But then again I’m not an expert and don’t have the power to say this and that!

As for the fare revision, at least the folk who travel from Zone A get a better deal into Edinburgh now, but Whitburn residents are now ultimately the odd ones out now! The Dunbar of West Lothian one may add! from a business perspective it stinks but money has to be made somehow, and maybe Lothian are hoping the residents of West Lothian will stay loyal to them despite how hard it may be! as while the X22 offers a link from Whitburn to Edinburgh via Livingston, LCB offer a faster alternative via Bathgate and Corstorphine! so maybe they know what they are doing!

 

[ScotRail158725]

While I understand some hard decisions had to be made to survive in West Lothian, I will never understand why the X27 had to come out of Whitburn, surely the loss of the 276/280 would of been enough to free up buses to maintain the old frequency of the X27/X28, but the loss of Dedridge West, Deans South, Seafield, Blackburn etc has just caused more upcry if anything!

There’s not enough driver resources to run a service that level. Lothian Country should’ve just bailed instead of trying to hold onto whats left. The X18/X27/X28 are still busy routes but the X28/X28 seem to now be hampered with reliability issues

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The issue here is with the business seemingly on the decline, staff will want to leave an already resource tight business due to the uncertainty. The number there is an unpredictable number though and only time will tell how many it is and if it is high or low. The biggest issue now I think is that they’re stuck in a vicious cycle. You can’t really undo these changes as customer confidence/satisfaction will be significantly lower than it was when they came along in 2018. I think if Lothian tried to return to Blackburn, Blackridge, Eliburn, Fauldhouse or Loganlea (and other places) I would be amazed if the same number of people returned to use the network. Understandably the users will feel like they’ve given up on them before so why would they want to use them?

The best case now is this network sticks long term. I can’t see much improvement beyond that at all.

In my view they have repainted 571-590 to try to improve the image and add in some newer buses too. There’s no real risk there as if the worst did happen (and let’s hope it doesn’t) they could move those to ECB and that would allow them to replace 935-950 plus a few others without the need to repaint them, all they’d have to do is change the logos/legals. 571-590 would do fine on the 113, 124 and 140/141.

A thought I had recently was what could’ve happened if Richard Hall had still been around? Might they have tried to buy out First? Just a thought.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

There’s not enough driver resources to run a service that level. Lothian Country should’ve just bailed instead of trying to hold onto whats left. The X18/X27/X28 are still busy routes but the X28/X28 seem to now be hampered with reliability issues

Bailing after investing in the depot in deans and remaining after over 4 years, plus all the drivers who are currently working with LCB could be out of a job? Honestly I understand the doubt but why does the first solution seem to be for everyone to think LCB should just run and give up?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

A thought I had recently was what could’ve happened if Richard Hall had still been around? Might they have tried to buy out First? Just a thought.

I genuinely think he would've tried to buy out First Livingston operations, maybe the other two too? That's not the current reality; we've got to cope with what we've got. If Lothian Country lasts until the "end of the driver shortage" which may not happen for over 10 years, then they might try to enter these areas again.

I hope Lothian Country stays in business, it would be a real blow to the staff etc unless they're bought over. I do think some staff might come from McGill's too though. We've got to wait and see, maybe Lothian knows what they are doing?

 

[Baileygirl]

I genuinely think he would've tried to buy out First Livingston operations, maybe the other two too? That's not the current reality; we've got to cope with what we've got. If Lothian Country lasts until the "end of the driver shortage" which may not happen for over 10 years, then they might try to enter these areas again.

I hope Lothian Country stays in business, it would be a real blow to the staff etc unless they're bought over. I do think some staff might come from McGill's too though. We've got to wait and see, maybe Lothian knows what they are doing?

Both Lothian Country and Mcgills Eastern Scottish appear to have separated up West Lothian between them and there is a lot less competition except for the routes into Edinburgh. At one time I thought Mcgills might buy out the X18/X27/X28 but with Lothian Country getting newish stock painted in the new colours it does not look likely.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I hope Lothian Country stays in business, it would be a real blow to the staff etc unless they're bought over. I do think some staff might come from McGill's too though. We've got to wait and see, maybe Lothian knows what they are doing?

Thank You! staff need to be taking into consideration too instead of putting fear into them by wishing the end of LCB on them!

Both Lothian Country and Mcgills Eastern Scottish appear to have separated up West Lothian between them and there is a lot less competition except for the routes into Edinburgh. At one time I thought Mcgills might buy out the X18/X27/X28 but with Lothian Country getting newish stock painted in the new colours it does not look likely.

I never thought of it like that to be honest, as LCB have the key core routes and that seems to be their biggest money makers above all else, I only hope once time has passed and drivers are available once again that we can get a bigger network again like back in 2019, but playing it safe seems to be the better option.

Also take ECB for example, they have no local routes within East Lothian (except maybe the 106 to a degree) and they are doing perfectly fine right now! Different market I realise but I doubt after this point Lothian will want to bail West Lothian and keep their network strong as it can be!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Also take ECB for example, they have no local routes within East Lothian (except maybe the 106 to a degree) and they are doing perfectly fine right now! Different market I realise but I doubt after this point Lothian will want to bail West Lothian and keep their network strong as it can be!

It’s a completely different market. ECB have virtually no competition at all. The 253 doesn’t really compete properly with the X7 as it’s too infrequent at every 2 hours, even if it is timed to be just in front of it. It can take a few during the peak but that’s pretty much it. Strangely Borders Buses today have started making the 253 come off the A1 to serve the Fort Kinnaird East stop in both directions but I can’t see the X7 ever doing this. Prentice/ECB staggered out the 106 and 108 to offer an every 30 minutes service between Haddington and Musselburgh so they don’t really compete with each other either.

 

[stevenedin]

I feel like the X18, X27 and X28 serve completely different purposes to the X22, X24 and X25. I think that because they all serve different areas with some small amount of overlap they don’t really take too much away from each other. They kind of even theirselves out.

X18 Whitburn to Edinburgh (fastest option over X22)
X18 Bathgate to Edinburgh (Fastest option over X25, X27 & X28)
X25 Bathgate to Livingston (Fastest option over X27 and X28)
X22 Whitburn East End and all other places in between there and Livingston (only option to Edinburgh and St John’s Hospital)
X24 Deans South and Eliburn - Edinburgh and Livingston to Uphall Station and Broxburn (again one of the only options)

It’s nice to have bus services which don’t overlap too much. I think that the only reason the X27 and X28 aren’t just all called X28 is to differentiate between the differences at Kirknewton and Calderwood but it is basically the same route now.

It’s a shame that they don’t do the same with the 26 Clerwood to Seton Sands and maybe Clerwood to Tranent numbered as a 26A or another number.

The same could be said of the 31.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It’s a shame that they don’t do the same with the 26 Clerwood to Seton Sands and maybe Clerwood to Tranent numbered as a 26A or another number.

The same could be said of the 31.

Oh no, the use of A, B, C etc should be banned in my opinion. I think it’s far better being a separate (but similar) route number altogether.

I remember the days when First ran 6 different versions of the 44. It was far too confusing. Lothian in the past have had I think 4 or 5 letters for one number as well.

 

[stevenedin]

Oh no, the use of A, B, C etc should be banned in my opinion. I think it’s far better being a separate (but similar) route number altogether.

I remember the days when First ran 6 different versions of the 44. It was far too confusing. Lothian in the past have had I think 4 or 5 letters for one number as well.

It would be good to have a different number but there is only a 28 available not 27 or 25 after 26 so it may not go well. The other option would be to have another number altogether or as I have previously suggested. Make it an ECB route.

I remember that 44 variation it was really bad and to make it worse at the time. The bus stops only had 44 on them and no variations so you couldn’t tell which one stopped where. I think it was 44 (Wallyford), 44B (Pencaitland), 44C (Haddington), 44D (Dunbar).

I think only the 44 and 44B went to Balerno the other 2 stopped at Haymarket.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I remember that 44 variation it was really bad and to make it worse at the time. The bus stops only had 44 on them and no variations so you couldn’t tell which one stopped where. I think it was 44 (Wallyford), 44B (Pencaitland), 44C (Haddington), 44D (Dunbar).

I think only the 44 and 44B went to Balerno the other 2 stopped at Haymarket.

Those ones are correct yes. There was a school journey 44A as well which I think ran one way from Macmerry to Tranent. I thought all 4 variations (44/B/C/D) went to Balerno as some-point but never all at one time. There might have even been a 44E for a while too and of course the Sunday only 66 which went via Portobello as well.

Lothian I think have only ever gone up to C, maybe D at a push. Not 100% sure though.

 

[Baileygirl]

It would be good to have a different number but there is only a 28 available not 27 or 25 after 26 so it may not go well. The other option would be to have another number altogether or as I have previously suggested. Make it an ECB route.

I remember that 44 variation it was really bad and to make it worse at the time. The bus stops only had 44 on them and no variations so you couldn’t tell which one stopped where. I think it was 44 (Wallyford), 44B (Pencaitland), 44C (Haddington), 44D (Dunbar).

I think only the 44 and 44B went to Balerno the other 2 stopped at Haymarket.

You also had a 44A which went a different route in Balerno.

 

[stevenedin]

You also had a 44A which went a different route in Balerno.

Also the 3A as well. I think the 3 went to Mayfield and the 3A to Gorebridge

 

[cammyeaston]

Those ones are correct yes. There was a school journey 44A as well which I think ran one way from Macmerry to Tranent. I thought all 4 variations (44/B/C/D) went to Balerno as some-point but never all at one time. There might have even been a 44E for a while too and of course the Sunday only 66 which went via Portobello as well.

Lothian I think have only ever gone up to C, maybe D at a push. Not 100% sure though.

First services 44/44B/44C were the services which ran to Balerno. 44A was a once in the morning school run from Tranent which I think ran only to Balerno High School. 44D was evenings and Sundays only, and was basically a renumbered 106.

Let's not forget that we also had the X44 Edinburgh - Haddington and also X45 Edinburgh - Dunbar.

All very confusing.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I'd agree that adding route letters can make it very confusing very quickly, but I think that also comes with having different routes and variations to cover Monday to Saturday daytime, Monday to Saturday evening, and Sunday. Keeping the same routes operating across all times and days makes things a lot more simple and easier.

Regarding the X27/X28 and the Lothian 26, I think the likes of the 26 and 31 work because the route only branches once, and each branch can be easily identified by its terminus location (i.e. the front of the bus displays "Seton Sands 26" or "Tranent 26"), which is the same as the industry standard, and no other information is needed. If you condensed the X27/X28 into one route you'd need to add "via" points onto the display, or a route variation letter, which as above starts to make things complicated.

 

[Auld reekie]

You also had a 44A which went a different route in Balerno.

I do wish that would comeback.
Don’t know why they stopped it.

 

[scosutsut]

It’s a completely different market. ECB have virtually no competition at all. The 253 doesn’t really compete properly with the X7 as it’s too infrequent at every 2 hours, even if it is timed to be just in front of it. It can take a few during the peak but that’s pretty much it.

It actually takes a fair few at the peak, but it's people that would be crush loaded on the X7, or dying of old age on the slower X6 - so it ends up being a complementary service really.

 

[DunsBus]

Those ones are correct yes. There was a school journey 44A as well which I think ran one way from Macmerry to Tranent. I thought all 4 variations (44/B/C/D) went to Balerno as some-point but never all at one time. There might have even been a 44E for a while too and of course the Sunday only 66 which went via Portobello as well.

Lothian I think have only ever gone up to C, maybe D at a push. Not 100% sure though.

C was the highest, for the 81C..

There were three B-suffixes which were shown on tickets but not on screens - 19B, 39B and 23B. This was when the 19/39 and 23 were interworked at Trinity in the evenings and all day on Sundays during the late nineties, to allow through tickets to be issued. At these times the 19/39 ran part-route between Trinity and Bellevue via Boswall, Crewe Toll and the West End rather than as a full circle.