Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Bus9120UK]

One can only hope, just wanted to share the optimism

I also hope just as much as you. I really liked the network back then, especially with the X17 service. I really benefited from it and honestly do wonder, if Lothiancountry is in a stable place and is able to expand again, where would they go first? My thoughts are perhaps something like the X17?

 

[scosutsut]

I’m still not 100% sure it is. The repainting of 936 raises more questions than answers.

My current running theory is compared to pre pandemic fleet size ECB have lost:

20795-20800 (6 deckers)

They also appear to have lost:
10195-99 (5 B7RLEs)

That's 11 vehicles.

With 841-850 in place that leaves them one short.

591-4 seem to be out the picture...

So enter 936?

My confusion then starts as I'm pretty sure they aren't running pre-pandemic PVR, and are saying the well known is staffing situation is why, suggesting that won't change anytime soon.

That said whilst LCB repaints are coming thick and fast there are still a few B9TLs and all the B5TLs to work through at ECB, so perhaps the elevated capacity is to cover that aspect and the older machines can then be parked up to cover any future return to the original PVR?

 

[alexf380]

ECB are only two buses down from the pre-pandemic PVR. One bus cut from the 113 when it stopped going to Granton, and one cut from the 139 when that went to hourly all day about a year ago. Also, slight correction, it was 7 deckers as 20794 was there as well.

 

[scosutsut]

ECB are only two buses down from the pre-pandemic PVR. One bus cut from the 113 when it stopped going to Granton, and one cut from the 139 when that went to hourly all day about a year ago. Also, slight correction, it was 7 deckers as 20794 was there as well.

Extra peak X7s are still missing I think?

Perhaps 935 will see Green & White too then?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Of course there's currently a petition going around with the people of Leith wanting a direct bus to Portobello via Seafield. Now wasn't this a connection mentioned here before, with a conclusion that it wouldn't be commercially viable?
For those interested; the petition (button opens change.org link with petition for service stated). Currently at 722 signatures, but how many of them would actually use such a service?

Create a new bus route to connect The Shore to Portobello​

We want a new bus route from Leith to Portobello to better connect our vibrant neighboring communities.

Traveling between The Shore in Leith to Portobello High Street is a quick trip of only a few miles along Seafield, but there is no direct bus route which connects the two.

Why not? We want one!

Traveling by car is bad for the environment and not possible for all residents - we believe that beach trips and Shore drinks should be easier for everyone!

Sign our petition today if you agree that a new direct bus route should be created to connect the Shore to Portobello.

It's as if they think creating a bus route that is commercially viable with resources available is as easy as pushing a button. Are these the same people who also complain when their buses don't turn up, now wanting a whole new route formed?

In other words, EEN (link opens EEN article "Edinburgh buses: Hundreds of residents sign petition calling for direct bus link from Leith to Portobello") has also picked this up...

A petition has been launched to create a “long overdue” bus link between two popular Edinburgh neighbourhoods – The Shore in Leith and Portobello. The campaign aims to connect two “vibrant neighbouring communities” via a bus link that would travel along Seafield Road – cutting down journey times and encourage people to use public transport between the two frequented destinations.

Leith resident of 12 years, Sarah Wright, launched the petition last weekend and the local campaign has already generated more than half of its target of 1,000 signatures.

Ms Wright said: “The Shore area is so close to Portobello and it just seems mad there’s not a bus that goes down there. I thought I would test the waters to see if it’s just me that thinks that or if there was a lot more local support for it and I was a little bit shocked to see how many people wanted it."

Please open the URL above for the rest of it, it's quite lengthy...

I just don't think this is a route that would work. What would even be extended, too? The 12? The 1? The 22? I don't think Lothian are even near the position of creating a completely new route at this stage.

 

[tbtc]

Leith to Portobello feels like a bit of a poorly served market, you have the 21 and 49 via relatively slow routes though Lochend/ Craigentinny (the 49 used to be painfully slow when it went via Lochend Road South/ Lochend Drive… thankfully now simplified with the recent changes) plus the obvious problem that (although seven buses an hour looks fine on paper) the fifteen minute service and the twenty minute service combines badly to leave gaps of up to fifteen minutes and the fact that these are very long services with so off the reliability problems that this brings (starting from Rosewell/ Wester Hailes/ Gyle)

But, given the lack of drivers etc, any “additional” Leith-Portobello route would probably mean at least shaving some resources from other services

What about a combined ten minute 25/25a service from Herriot Watt to Craigentinny via the “old” Restalrig Road route, then running alternatively via either Craigentinny Avenue/ Moira Terrace *or* Wakefield Avenue to Portobello, Brighton Terrace to Milton Road then either ASDA/ Fort Kinnaird *or* Niddrie/ Infirmary…

… the 21 and 49 therefore terminate in/around Craigentinny (with one picking up the section of route via Lochend Road South that the 25 recently took from the 49)?

That means a slight PVR saving, since there’s one fewer bus from Craigentinny to the Infirmary (but the reduced frequency on that section means a simpler ten minute service from Leith to Milton Road)…

…given that’s about half an hour in each direction, that might be enough to free up one bus, which might be the “cost” of extending the half hourly 12 via Seafield Road and Commercial Street to Ocean Terminal (giving Portobello its first direct service to the shopping centre in a long time)?

Obviously that means extending some long services to make them even longer and I certainly couldn’t confidently predict that journey times on Seafield Road wouldn’t be messed about by traffic volumes, but I’m trying to come up with a “solution” that doesn’t start from an unrealistic position of “firstly, find a dozen additional drivers”, since that’s going to be rather awkward in the current environment

(Whilst the 1 looks simpler to extend east to Portobello, it doesn’t penetrate much of Leith, so seems like a non-starter compared to something that could provide a link to the jobs and shops around The Shore… maybe nothing will happen but maybe this is the kind of link that Lothian will start focusing on once the trams suck up a big percentage of traditional Leith passengers - in the way that the trams to the Gyle meant focusing on alternative routes in that neck of the woods rather than just simply competing on “city centre to the Gyle” passengers)

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Whilst the 1 looks simpler to extend east to Portobello, it doesn’t penetrate much of Leith, so seems like a non-starter compared to something that could provide a link to the jobs and shops around The Shore… maybe nothing will happen but maybe this is the kind of link that Lothian will start focusing on once the trams suck up a big percentage of traditional Leith passengers - in the way that the trams to the Gyle meant focusing on alternative routes in that neck of the woods rather than just simply competing on “city centre to the Gyle” passengers

I think the 1 would be plain simple to extend, instead of going up Leith Links, it could go up Duke Street and the A900, down the current route and terminate at Eastfield Bus Terminus. Leith Links will still be served by the 49 and 34 for passengers that want to go to the City Centre or even to Portobello, albeit a slower alternative, if the passengers that is intending to travel don't have mobility issues they can easily walk up to the A199.

This would probably benefit Leith, as long as buses go into the Seafield Terminus bus stop it would work well, although a similar thing was done with the Service 129 back when it was with Eve's Coaches, and look what happened to the route due to low passenger numbers, it was withdrawn.

If passengers were to seriously use this service, would it be worth the PVR probably going up by about 1 with the driver shortage, maybe a bus or two could be operated by Marine too to balance it out.

I also have a very bold second suggestion, mind you I've not put that much thought into it so it might not make sense,

Purely because of the driver shortage, would it be worth bringing the 45 to Leith Links and Extending the 1 to QMU? One downside I've thought of is the long journey to get into Edinburgh, but it would connect Leith with the QMU. There are upsides and downsides in every situation I've thought of, I'd probably go with my first suggestion out of them all, but it's completely up to debate.

 

[stevenedin]

How about extend the 11 from Ocean Terminal to Portobello or Eastfield. That would create a lot of new links and also as it’s a frequent service it could gain more passengers. I would keep the 1 going to Seafield Street though as that would delay the route getting in and out of there by a lot.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’ll be honest, I don’t think any of these ideas work. Ideally you’d want to extend the 12 if you had to extend something, but let’s face reality this is a route that won’t be served for a long time, if ever at all.

For me extend the 12 from one side and then the 200 from the other is probably a more realistic option. That would offer a combined every 15 minutes frequency. The Skylinks would be best being transferred to Marine if this did happen though.

The 12 could go along Commercial Street while the 200 could go via Port of Leith. However is such a route possible? I’d need to check.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I’ll be honest, I don’t think any of these ideas work. Ideally you’d want to extend the 12 if you had to extend something, but let’s face reality this is a route that won’t be served for a long time, if ever at all.

For me extend the 12 from one side and then the 200 from the other is probably a more realistic option. That would offer a combined every 15 minutes frequency. The Skylinks would be best being transferred to Marine if this did happen though.

The 12 could go along Commercial Street while the 200 could go via Port of Leith. However is such a route possible? I’d need to check.

What if you Extended the 12 to Ocean Terminal then? I'm sure the PVR of the route would go up, but it would be a good extension.

Alternatively, I've thought about a Leith Circular maybe terminating at Leith Links, it would go something like this;

I'm not sure how that would fare but the west of Leith wouldn't get a service to Portobello, but yet again It's a short walk and it is connecting more places to Portobello rather than it going straight through Salamander Street (A199.) If the 200 were to be extended, It would probably be extended like so;

This one doesn't serve anywhere but Salamander Street in Leith but it will still provide a valid link, if the 100 were to be extended it would probably be used more by Portobello because it gives a link to Edinburgh Airport without being crammed in on an Airlink XLB from Prince's Street.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

What if you Extended the 12 to Ocean Terminal then? I'm sure the PVR of the route would go up, but it would be a good extension.

Alternatively, I've thought about a Leith Circular maybe terminating at Leith Links, it would go something like this;

Being honest, I don’t see what Lothian have to lose by at least trialling this? maybe at least once an hour anyway to start or Monday to Friday only? my theory is if the route is done right then it’ll most likely attract more passengers! take the 400 for example compared to 6-7 years ago as the 18!

While I understand it’s the same story everywhere “tHeRe ArE nO dRiVeRs”, or the link is not viable etc I get it, don’t need to tell me twice!

The 12 already has that school run from North Junction Street to Duddingdston in the morning! so it’s at least not impossible.

Perhaps a direct run via Seafield Road and Salamander Street onto Commercial Street is the best route forward? i know the problems this might cause with reliability and any chance of me potentially suggesting an increase of frequency will have me sent back to the dark ages! But if the timetable is timed perfectly with a few extra runs at peak starting from certain points to save chase, then I don’t see it failing badly, maybe I’m wrong though who knows?

now the elephant in the room.. the passengers? well.. they made a petition for a reason didn’t they? you can’t argue that there isn’t a network out there at least! and more houses/shops are popping up out of the blue compared to the last decade, if this alone Isn’t a good enough reason for a bus service then I don’t know what is! Portobello hasn’t had a link to Ocean Terminal since 2015 back with Eve Coaches! I used it a few times in its later years and found it very useful, maybe it wasn’t it’s time back then but maybe now? I dont see any reason why not to consider it, heck no one saw the 12 coming back to Portobello but it did anyway?!

Of course another option which I saw on here that I mentioned previously is extending the 200 to Eastfield! that’ll also work!

 

[stevenedin]

Being honest, I don’t see what Lothian have to lose by at least trialling this? maybe at least once an hour anyway to start or Monday to Friday only? my theory is if the route is done right then it’ll most likely attract more passengers! take the 400 for example compared to 6-7 years ago as the 18!

While I understand it’s the same story everywhere “tHeRe ArE nO dRiVeRs”, or the link is not viable etc I get it, don’t need to tell me twice!

The 12 already has that school run from North Junction Street to Duddingdston in the morning! so it’s at least not impossible.

Perhaps a direct run via Seafield Road and Salamander Street onto Commercial Street is the best route forward? i know the problems this might cause with reliability and any chance of me potentially suggesting an increase of frequency will have me sent back to the dark ages! But if the timetable is timed perfectly with a few extra runs at peak starting from certain points to save chase, then I don’t see it failing badly, maybe I’m wrong though who knows?

now the elephant in the room.. the passengers? well.. they made a petition for a reason didn’t they? you can’t argue that there isn’t a network out there at least! and more houses/shops are popping up out of the blue compared to the last decade, if this alone Isn’t a good enough reason for a bus service then I don’t know what is! Portobello hasn’t had a link to Ocean Terminal since 2015 back with Eve Coaches! I used it a few times in its later years and found it very useful, maybe it wasn’t it’s time back then but maybe now? I dont see any reason why not to consider it, heck no one saw the 12 coming back to Portobello but it did anyway?!

Of course another option which I saw on here that I mentioned previously is extending the 200 to Eastfield! that’ll also work!

I think both are good options. Having a Skylink service to Joppa would be very useful as people from East Lothian could change there to get a link to the airport and also people of East Edinburgh.

 

[DunsBus]

The reason there's no bus service along Seafield Road is a simple one. There's no demand. I remember LRT ran the 89 along Seafield Road on and off, and on again, between 1986 and 1993 and the buses were regularly carrying fresh air. (The second "on" came when the 89 terminated outside Marine Garage from 1991-93 and was done for operational reasons.)

 

[Japrods]

I think both are good options. Having a Skylink service to Joppa would be very useful as people from East Lothian could change there to get a link to the airport and also people of East Edinburgh.

No idea of the logistics, costs etc but as a resident of Leith extending the 200 to Eastfield (a good layover point) would be ideal. Linking Leith and Portobello, providing a northern service to the airport and providing a service for the many new homes planned or being built. (Salamander St & Seafield itself) Also linking to the tram at the new Shore stop.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The reason there's no bus service along Seafield Road is a simple one. There's no demand.

I’ll refer you back to my post!

While I understand it’s the same story everywhere “tHeRe ArE nO dRiVeRs”, or the link is not viable etc I get it, don’t need to tell me twice!

now the elephant in the room.. the passengers? well.. they made a petition for a reason didn’t they? you can’t argue that there isn’t a network out there at least! and more houses/shops are popping up out of the blue compared to the last decade, if this alone Isn’t a good enough reason for a bus service then I don’t know what is! Portobello hasn’t had a link to Ocean Terminal since 2015 back with Eve Coaches! I used it a few times in its later years and found it very useful, maybe it wasn’t it’s time back then but maybe now? I dont see any reason why not to consider it, heck no one saw the 12 coming back to Portobello but it did anyway?!

All I’m saying is that times are changing, the 41 is now running up via Cramond Road South, I mean is there demand up that way? what about Cammo with all the new builds? Surely the residents can drive so why would they need a bus service? and don’t get me started on the 100 something buses that run to The Gyle!? I understand if something didn’t work in the past then scrap it, but trying again never does the world of harm? Look back 15 sometime years ago, would any of us expect Lothian to take over Haddington, North Berwick, Queensferry, Livingston etc? I thought not! Like I said times are changing and for all we know! A link to ocean terminal via Seafield to Portobello might be a money maker if done correctly!

No idea of the logistics, costs etc but as a resident of Leith extending the 200 to Eastfield (a good layover point) would be ideal. Linking Leith and Portobello, providing a northern service to the airport and providing a service for the many new homes planned or being built. (Salamander St & Seafield itself) Also linking to the tram at the new Shore stop.

Couldn’t have said it better myself!

 

[Porty]

No idea of the logistics, costs etc but as a resident of Leith extending the 200 to Eastfield (a good layover point) would be ideal. Linking Leith and Portobello, providing a northern service to the airport and providing a service for the many new homes planned or being built. (Salamander St & Seafield itself) Also linking to the tram at the new Shore stop.

Give it 5 or 10 years and once the car dealerships get developed for housing (just think of the potential for development of high density flats with sea views) then there will be an important new market for buses. This is the Council's plans for this whole area.

Also, in a few months time, it would be great for Portobello, Musselburgh and coastal East Lothian to get a bus connection through to Leith and then it should be an easy change onto the tram for the western part of the city and the airport thus taking pressure off Princes Street area stops. This may be an attractive option for some - but not East Lothian passholders who do not have free tram travel. To encourage a more integrated public transport network and shift more people from diesel buses to electric trams then this anomaly really needs to be sorted by the Scottish Government.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I understand if something didn’t work in the past then scrap it, but trying again never does the world of harm? Look back 15 sometime years ago, would any of us expect Lothian to take over Haddington, North Berwick, Queensferry, Livingston etc? I thought not! Like I said times are changing and for all we know! A link to ocean terminal via Seafield to Portobello might be a money maker if done correctly!

A business with the resources like Lothian have will not want to take gambles at the expense of losing something that it proven to work and make money. Now is not the time for a route like this.

 

[scosutsut]

Given that anyone under 22 or over 65 wants a bus to go to literally every destination they might ever to go to, I'm not surprised there is "demand"

However I can't imagine a sustainable market of travel between Leith and Portobello at the moment and a survey signed by less than 10 deckers loads of people doesn't do nearly enough to change my opinion. Not enough retail or employment cross over that you could imagine could sustain regular day long loads.

Seafield has a great segregated walk/cycle way from the cat and dog home to Porty etc. All factors.

Not to mention the peak congestion at Seafield when Portobello bound would be horrific to navigate.

If the physical fabric of the area changes, then fine, but not as it stands.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Christmas schedules officially published: https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2022/12/festive-timetables/

Festive Timetables for Edinburgh and the Lothians Lothian’s special timetables for the Christmas and Hogmanay period are now available to help customers plan ahead for their festive journeys across Edinburgh and the Lothians, whether travelling to visit friends and family, or heading out on the town to celebrate the season.

Further down the page also includes summaries of service levels on key dates.

Lothian timetables
EastCoastbuses timetable
Lothiancountry timetable

These were already up on bustimes for the last wee while.

 

[stevenedin]

Christmas schedules officially published: https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2022/12/festive-timetables/

Further down the page also includes summaries of service levels on key dates.

Lothian timetables
EastCoastbuses timetable
Lothiancountry timetable

These were already up on bustimes for the last wee while.

No 231 this year and I noticed that they have avoided making a network map for both Lothiancountry and EastCoastbuses on the leaflets. They just put the normal network map which is confusing for people.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

No 231 this year and I noticed that they have avoided making a network map for both Lothiancountry and EastCoastbuses on the leaflets. They just put the normal network map which is confusing for people.

To be fair the 231 wasn’t in the last festive Timetable, so clearly just a one-off for 2020.

Noticed that the 107 is back on Christmas Day rather than just calling it the 106, nice way to not confuse regulars!

 

[Busman757]

To be fair the 231 wasn’t in the last festive Timetable, so clearly just a one-off for 2020.

Noticed that the 107 is back on Christmas Day rather than just calling it the 106, nice way to not confuse regulars!

231 was a West Lothian Council tender. They have obviously chose not to bid for any this year.

 

[danielhogg2005]

Hey, does anyone have a 2020 festive Lothian Country network map with service 231 in it cause I'd like to see it for a project that I'm making?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Hey, does anyone have a 2020 festive Lothian Country network map with service 231 in it cause I'd like to see it for a project that I'm making?

See attached

 

[danielhogg2005]

See attached

Thanks

 

[Mal]

Reading through all these route changes and suggestions. I'm thinking would it not be better to wait until the trams start running? Then I'd expect a major network review. After all, the public and passengers prefer a stable network which they know.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Reading through all these route changes and suggestions. I'm thinking would it not be better to wait until the trams start running? Then I'd expect a major network review. After all, the public and passengers prefer a stable network which they know.

The network has already been adjusted for the Newhaven extension.

 

[Porty]

Reading through all these route changes and suggestions. I'm thinking would it not be better to wait until the trams start running? Then I'd expect a major network review. After all, the public and passengers prefer a stable network which they know.

Yes, a large number of the recent posts would be better off in the Speculative Discussion heading. A suggestion for the moderators.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Yes, a large number of the recent posts would be better off in the Speculative Discussion heading. A suggestion for the moderators.

I think the recent posts if anything should be more then welcomed here, after all this is a Lothian forum, it’s not just bus allocations etc on here room for everything here!

at the end of the day both sides have good points, but I still stand by saying this isn't the 90’s or early 2000’s anymore, Lothian could potentially make a good link between Ocean Terminal and Portobello, maybe when the tram line is finished, if it’s an extension of the 12, 200, 140 or a new service altogether!

If done right, it could succeed! if it had to warren a petition in the first place then clearly there was demand!

 

[stevenedin]

I think the recent posts if anything should be more then welcomed here, after all this is a Lothian forum, it’s not just bus allocations etc on here room for everything here!

at the end of the day both sides have good points, but I still stand by saying this isn't the 90’s or early 2000’s anymore, Lothian could potentially make a good link between Ocean Terminal and Portobello, maybe when the tram line is finished, if it’s an extension of the 12, 200, 140 or a new service altogether!

If done right, it could succeed! if it had to warren a petition in the first place then clearly there was demand!

I agree. I mean it’s possible that they could extend the 22 back to Ocean Terminal but the route could go Leith Street, Leopold Place, London Road, Meadowbank, Willowbrae Road, Milton Road/West/East left at the traffic lights past Eastfield at Joppa and past Portobello, Seafield, Bernard Street, Commercial Street and Ocean Terminal.

The 26 and 44 could be changed so that they remain on Waterloo Place and Regent Road and the 22 extension would cover Leopold Place to Portobello/Joppa and possibly the 45 if it is put back to Leopold Place.

This would also allow people on the 22 route albeit a long route to Ocean Terminal still and it wouldn’t affect the tram as they would just promote it as “the quick way to Ocean Terminal from Gyle”.