Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[DunsBus]

Sorry just have to put some facts out there from the back of my cigarette packet...

LCB currently use ~48 buses a day from a fleet of ~57
24 - 60 plates
09 - 09 plates
03 - 57 plates
04 - 11 plates
08 -67 plates
10 - 13 plates

This works out an average age of 9.7 years for the fleet

First currently use ~65 buses a day from a fleet of ~73
10 66 plates
01 52 plate
12 63 plates
09 14 plate
17 64 plates
04 65 plates
02 54 plates
04 55 plates
02 56 plates
02 07 plates
03 57 plates
07 09 plates
This works out an average age of 8.9 years for the fleet.

Although first have a much larger spread of vehicle age, their bulk orders in the 2013-2015 period really brought their vehicle age up.
Lothian have a much smaller vehicle age range but the majority of their vehicles are over 10 years old.

Do I hear the sound of a can of worms being opened?

 

[scosutsut]

Do I hear the sound of a can of worms being opened?

More the sound of facts being brought to a conjecture fight?

 

[CN04NRJ]

More the sound of facts being brought to a conjecture fight?

To be fair I did say similar average age profile. 0.8 year average difference isn't massive .

 

[scosutsut]

To be fair I did say similar average age profile. 0.8 year average difference isn't massive .

Oh for sure. Facts can always be presented to suit the argument being made.

For example by that same data First have the 10 oldest machines out of the two competitors so you could argue the more consistent customer experience would be with LC.

Especially as huge swathes of LCs fleet have had heavy internal refurbs, so in terms of age of interior and customer ambience there fleet would be far "younger"?

But then you'd take a step back and remember the vast majority of customers don't give a rat's posterior and on here people tend to get upset/tribal over the most odd things! (Not that I am suggesting anyone so far has hit that point yet!)

 

[Swanny200]

If you put an LC bus and a First bus side by side, I would imagine the average punter would not care as long as it got them there quickly and comfortably, Lothian's buses seem well taken care of internally, my experiences of Firsts West Lothian fleet have always been broken down outside my old house in Livi, rattling, noisy, cold and the majority of drivers would be wanting you off the bus as soon as with some driving off just as you move off the step. That was 6 years ago mind you, Lothian's buses always seemed warm, drivers seemed nice, the odd rattle but taken care of.

 

[GusB]

Okay, I think we should draw this particular discussion to a close. All these views are subjective and agreement is never ever going to be reached. I have already asked people to be mindful of the sensitivity of the Lothian v First arguments. Further posts will be removed.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I assume all Evoras are now in service? Do we have any idea if the Ex-Airlink E400XLBs are going to be gaining the "Staircase" livery or are they being left in dealer white for in the long term?

 

[OmniCity999]

I assume all Evoras are now in service? Do we have any idea if the Ex-Airlink E400XLBs are going to be gaining the "Staircase" livery or are they being left in dealer white for in the long term?

All eVoRa's have been in service at least once now!

White XLB's are staying white for the time being. There is a long term plan, but it requires patronage to rise.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I assume all Evoras are now in service? Do we have any idea if the Ex-Airlink E400XLBs are going to be gaining the "Staircase" livery or are they being left in dealer white for in the long term?

They've all been in service for a week or two now.

 

[Graham Alexand]

There is a service change for Lothian Country and East Coast Buses happened on 14/02/2021.

V The article is below V

Service change from Sunday 14 February for EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry
New links from Livingston and Bathgate town centre to COVID vaccination centre
February 9, 2021
Further network changes will be implemented to EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry networks from Sunday 14 February in order to continue aligning routes and timetables to customer travel patterns during the current lockdown.

With the new COVID vaccination centre opening at the Pyramids Business Park, Service 275 will divert to provide new public transport links from Livingston and Bathgate town centre.

Due to very low levels of customer demand, we will temporarily suspend operation of Service X5, and the frequency of Service 139 will be doubled to every 30-minutes between 9am and 3pm to provide additional capacity for those making essential journeys at this time.

Full details, including links to timetables, are available to view below.



Service change

Lothiancountry

Lothiancountry 43
On Mondays to Fridays, a revised early morning timetable will be introduced with buses operating every 20-minutes instead of every 30-minutes. Off-peak, the frequency will be reduced to every 30-minutes, but a 20-minute frequency will remain during the evening peak from Edinburgh to Queensferry. The hourly evening service will continue, but the last journey to Edinburgh will now terminate at the West End.

Lothiancountry X18
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry X27
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry X28
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry 275
Revised route and timetable introduced with all journeys to and from Bathgate diverted to serve the Pyramids Business Park vaccination centre.

Lothiancountry 276
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry 280
Revised timetables to improve reliability.

Lothiancountry 281
Revised timetables to improve reliability. The evening timetable on Service 281 will be curtailed to finish earlier due to very low levels of customer demand.

Lothiancountry N28
No change.

Lothiancountry N43
Service N43 will be suspended due to very low levels of customer demand.



EastCoastbuses

EastCoastbuses X5
Due to very low levels of customer demand, we will temporarily suspend operation of this service.

EastCoastbuses X7
No change

EastCoastbuses 104
No change

EastCoastbuses 106
Minor timetable changes to the early morning and evening timetable on Mondays to Saturdays.

EastCoastbuses 113
No change.

EastCoastbuses 124
No change

EastCoastbuses 139
On Mondays to Fridays, the frequency will be doubled to every 30-minutes between 9am and 3pm to provide additional capacity.

EastCoastbuses 140
No change

EastCoastbuses N113
No change

V The Link to this article and Timetables attached is below V

Service change from Sunday 14 February for EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry - Lothian Buses

Further changes will be implemented to EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry networks from Sunday 14 February in order to continue aligning routes and timetables to customer travel patterns during the current lockdown. With the new COVID vaccination centre opening at the Pyramids Business Park...

www.lothianbuses.com

 

[TheEastCoaster]

There is a service change for Lothian Country and East Coast Buses happened on 14/02/2021.

V The article is below V

Service change from Sunday 14 February for EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry
New links from Livingston and Bathgate town centre to COVID vaccination centre
February 9, 2021
Further network changes will be implemented to EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry networks from Sunday 14 February in order to continue aligning routes and timetables to customer travel patterns during the current lockdown.

With the new COVID vaccination centre opening at the Pyramids Business Park, Service 275 will divert to provide new public transport links from Livingston and Bathgate town centre.

Due to very low levels of customer demand, we will temporarily suspend operation of Service X5, and the frequency of Service 139 will be doubled to every 30-minutes between 9am and 3pm to provide additional capacity for those making essential journeys at this time.

Full details, including links to timetables, are available to view below.



Service change

Lothiancountry

Lothiancountry 43
On Mondays to Fridays, a revised early morning timetable will be introduced with buses operating every 20-minutes instead of every 30-minutes. Off-peak, the frequency will be reduced to every 30-minutes, but a 20-minute frequency will remain during the evening peak from Edinburgh to Queensferry. The hourly evening service will continue, but the last journey to Edinburgh will now terminate at the West End.

Lothiancountry X18
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry X27
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry X28
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry 275
Revised route and timetable introduced with all journeys to and from Bathgate diverted to serve the Pyramids Business Park vaccination centre.

Lothiancountry 276
Minor timetable changes.

Lothiancountry 280
Revised timetables to improve reliability.

Lothiancountry 281
Revised timetables to improve reliability. The evening timetable on Service 281 will be curtailed to finish earlier due to very low levels of customer demand.

Lothiancountry N28
No change.

Lothiancountry N43
Service N43 will be suspended due to very low levels of customer demand.



EastCoastbuses

EastCoastbuses X5
Due to very low levels of customer demand, we will temporarily suspend operation of this service.

EastCoastbuses X7
No change

EastCoastbuses 104
No change

EastCoastbuses 106
Minor timetable changes to the early morning and evening timetable on Mondays to Saturdays.

EastCoastbuses 113
No change.

EastCoastbuses 124
No change

EastCoastbuses 139
On Mondays to Fridays, the frequency will be doubled to every 30-minutes between 9am and 3pm to provide additional capacity.

EastCoastbuses 140
No change

EastCoastbuses N113
No change

V The Link to this article and Timetables attached is below V

Service change from Sunday 14 February for EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry - Lothian Buses

Further changes will be implemented to EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry networks from Sunday 14 February in order to continue aligning routes and timetables to customer travel patterns during the current lockdown. With the new COVID vaccination centre opening at the Pyramids Business Park...

www.lothianbuses.com

I think it’s great they decided to divert the 275 to the vaccination centre, it might not only bump passenger numbers up on that route but it’s incredibly humble during these times, perhaps First will follow suit on this or any other LCB service like (280/281)

I’m not suprised the X5 is temporarily suspended, the 124 isn’t as busy as it is now so it’s no doubt carrying the extra load till we come out of Lockdown.

The Last 43 running only to West End from Queensferry, I’m assuming it’s so the bus could run off service to Livingston As the N43 is suspended too?

they should of made it so the 43 turns into an X18 from West End running direct to Deans, pick up a few late night passengers along Corstorphine way

 

[Graham Alexand]

they should of made it so the 43 turns into an X18 from West End running direct to Deans, pick up a few late night passengers along Corstorphine way

I thought about something similar to this with the X28 but I forgot about short running X18 services.

Are Night Buses run by the council or Lothian Buses themselves?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I thought about something similar to this with the X28 but I forgot about short running X18 services.

Are Night Buses run by the council or Lothian Buses themselves?

If you want to find out what services are subsidised most councils publish a list of which ones are on official council websites. Sometimes the company lists them on their respective timetables as well.

As far as I know no Lothiancountry services are normally subsidised, except for around Christmas/new year.

 

[OmniCity999]

Are Night Buses run by the council or Lothian Buses themselves?

All of our services are run by us, every single one. Some are subsidised, but their all run by us.

There's a massive difference between a service being run by the council and a service being run for the council. I.e subsidised, so only part paid for.

All Lothian, East Coast and Lothian Country night services are run commercially, except exceptions for Christmas and New Year.

 

[Graham Alexand]

All of our services are run by us, every single one. Some are subsidised, but their all run by us.

There's a massive difference between a service being run by the council and a service being run for the council. I.e subsidised, so only part paid for.

All Lothian, East Coast and Lothian Country night services are run commercially, except exceptions for Christmas and New Year.

Is that the reason for a night fare being more expensive than a day time fare?:

 

[OmniCity999]

Is that the reason for a night fare being more expensive than a day time fare?:

The services are commercial. Their not financially supported.

Generally their used by less people.

So obviously they need to make enough money to break even, drivers, fuel and upkeep cost money.

No matter how you look at it, it's still cheaper than a taxi or losing your license.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Is that the reason for a night fare being more expensive than a day time fare?:

As @OmniCity999 said it’s down to the extra costs and the generally lower demand compared with day services.

Quite a few years ago (up until 2013 or 2014 I think) you used to have to pay a £1.50 excess on Lothian’s NightBuses, I’m guessing this was dropped to promote bus usage on Friday/Saturday in particular after nights out etc, the ridacard I think went up at the same time which may have balanced it out.

 

[OmniCity999]

As @OmniCity999 said it’s down to the extra costs and the generally lower demand compared with day services.

Quite a few years ago (up until 2013 or 2014 I think) you used to have to pay a £1.50 excess on Lothian’s NightBuses, I’m guessing this was dropped to promote bus usage on Friday/Saturday in particular after nights out etc, the ridacard I think went up at the same time which may have balanced it out.

Not necessarily extra costs, just the bare minimum to run the service.

 

[Graham Alexand]

The services are commercial. Their not financially supported.

Generally their used by less people.

So obviously they need to make enough money to break even, drivers, fuel and upkeep cost money.

No matter how you look at it, it's still cheaper than a taxi or losing your license.

Yeah, Taxi prices are extortionate especially from Edinburgh, the N28 is very useful if I was to have a night out in Edinburgh because its within a 2 mile walk to where I live but this won't happen for a while.

I'm hoping when Covid-19 is said and done maybe we could se a Night bus variant of the X18 to cover the north part of West Lothian and maybe this could extend to Loganlea from Whitburn via Fauldhouse (just a thought though) for more options for people in West Lothian.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The services are commercial. Their not financially supported.

Generally their used by less people.

So obviously they need to make enough money to break even, drivers, fuel and upkeep cost money.

No matter how you look at it, it's still cheaper than a taxi or losing your license.

To add to that won't drivers wages be higher per hour on night rotas? Certain here that's the case.

 

[OmniCity999]

To add to that won't drivers wages be higher per hour on night rotas? Certain here that's the case.

im not 100% sure as thats not my department, but i'd be inclined to agree!

 

[CN04NRJ]

im not 100% sure as thats not my department, but i'd be inclined to agree!

Yes, I'm not sure what the difference is though. I know it's fairly significant for single deck drivers who do the N30/N22. Not enough make me want to work 16/1700-0400/0520 though!

Yeah, Taxi prices are extortionate especially from Edinburgh, the N28 is very useful if I was to have a night out in Edinburgh because its within a 2 mile walk to where I live but this won't happen for a while.

I'm hoping when Covid-19 is said and done maybe we could se a Night bus variant of the X18 to cover the north part of West Lothian and maybe this could extend to Loganlea from Whitburn via Fauldhouse (just a thought though) for more options for people in West Lothian.

I second that - back in February last year we missed the last train and caught the N28 before it was extended to Bathgate assuming we could get a taxi onwards. Ended up stranded in Livingston until the first X28 Sunday morning

 

[Graham Alexand]

Yes, I'm not sure what the difference is though. I know it's fairly significant for single deck drivers who do the N30/N22. Not enough make me want to work 16/1700-0400/0520 though!



I second that - back in February last year we missed the last train and caught the N28 before it was extended to Bathgate assuming we could get a taxi onwards. Ended up stranded in Livingston until the first X28 Sunday morning

3hr wait in Livingston at night well that is something that just does not sound appealing

I've been trying to work this out for a while, what bus service is more direct to Livingston from Edinburgh (Pre Covid) was it the X17 or the X27?
I'm asking because I can't seem to find any timetable of the old service X17 (My initial thought was X17 but I'm not sure).
Thanks.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

3hr wait in Livingston at night well that is something that just does not sound appealing

I've been trying to work this out for a while, what bus service is more direct to Livingston from Edinburgh (Pre Covid) was it the X17 or the X27?
I'm asking because I can't seem to find any timetable of the old service X17 (My initial thought was X17 but I'm not sure).
Thanks.

I tried to look aswell but I cant find any old X17 timetables, however I did take an X17 over an X27/X28 once to Livingston for curiosity sakes.

while I’m not an expert on timings and such I did feel the X17 was more direct, probably because it didn’t detour via Sighthill and Kirknewton, plus it did use to serve the Fastlink also, and then one detour via Craigshill later Your at the centre.

Of course the X17 is now the 276 which even after Covid I feel will be the norm for that service, which usually spells the service on its last legs.

I know it was suggested that a direct Livingston express would be an ideal route via the M8 to Edinburgh, like an Ex3 implying Green Arrow isn’t a dead brand.

But for now LCB have their three Edinburgh to West Lothian services and their network within to focus on which I feel is their higher priority, because they definitely don’t have to worry about the X18

 

[route101]

3 hour wait in Livingston, was there a shortage of taxis or something?

Surprised they haven't tried a service via the M8, maybe works at peak only.

 

[cammyeaston]

3 hour wait in Livingston, was there a shortage of taxis or something?

Surprised they haven't tried a service via the M8, maybe works at peak only.

Wouldn't it suffer the same fate as the EX1? Even running on the M8, it can't begin to compete with the train. Is it maybe better to try and develop better links with trains throughout West Lothian? Livingston South has a nifty bus terminal but the services that use it aren't co-ordinated with train departures - same issue at Fauldhouse. The bus arrives just as the train is due to leave.

 

[scosutsut]

You've also got to consider no one knows what the new normal is going to look like, and when that's going to arrive.

So the M8 might be clear and move because commuting drops, but then if commuting drops overcrowding on the trains reduces and any viability of going toe to toe with trains reduces further.

Big organisations are already looking at slashing office capacity - because the pandemic has suggested to them that giving someone a device to work from home is cheaper to them than giving someone a device to work from inside a massive office where they have to pay for x, y, z on top.

Don't get me wrong, offices won't disappear, but 100% office working will definitely be slashed. I was 90-95% pre pandemic. Can't see me being more than 25% post. Finger on the corporate pulse would say they are already there too.

 

[CN04NRJ]

3 hour wait in Livingston, was there a shortage of taxis or something?

Surprised they haven't tried a service via the M8, maybe works at peak only.

Off topic but yes, every company said none available or as I suspect they weren't interested in a relatively short fare at that time of night. In Cardiff they'd just point blank say no to local fares (even 5 miles at £20) until the council employed taxi marshals to force them to do their jobs.

Never understood why the N28 terminated at Livingston anyway, it could have at least gone to Deans but I'm glad it's been fully extended now.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Bus 190 was in service yesterday and bus 169 is in service today, surely they'd use a 7900 instead of an Eclipse 2 to save the batteries, or is there a reason behind this?

 

[Graham Alexand]

Off topic but yes, every company said none available or as I suspect they weren't interested in a relatively short fare at that time of night. In Cardiff they'd just point blank say no to local fares (even 5 miles at £20) until the council employed taxi marshals to force them to do their jobs.

Never understood why the N28 terminated at Livingston anyway, it could have at least gone to Deans but I'm glad it's been fully extended now.

I've found an old Timetable for the N28, It did serve Deans, but I think the destination display said Livingston because it basically serves Livingston in it's entirety, I don't know what the route is like now though.

I've attached the old Livingston/West Lothian portion of the N28 Map below.