Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I notice on BusTimes.org that Lothian buses seem to track continuously, not just when they are in service, so tens of buses are shown tracking at the depots.

Do you know what causes this, I’ve not seen it for any other operators, do the ticket machines stay logged in permanently?

I’m still learning a lot of how the website works but as far as I’m aware all of the data for Transport for Edinburgh’s (TfE) locators come from TfE’s own source rather than through the Bus Open Data Service (BODS). For most of the time the majority of locators for vehicles that are not in service and in a depot/storage area will disappear, and then reappear for a short while every so often. How often it does this seems completely random to me.

I am hoping the way the data tracks will change in the coming months with these new locators. At the minute a continual problem is where certain buses stop tracking beyond a certain point. If you imagine the city and surrounding area as one big rectangle you’ll often see buses track at the edge of this rectangle - which doesn’t cover the entire network area. The most common is example is when the majority of buses parked at North Berwick and Deans Depots show at the edge of this rectangle. A lot of buses away for repaint do this as well.

Buses that are in service are generally unaffected by this issue and will keep tracking beyond the edge of the rectangle, however they may stop tracking for a short while - North Berwick Town Centre is bad for this.

 

[mb88]

Anyone else heard that Lothian Country are heading back to Longstone and operate from there after government funding has stopped, Deans depot in limbo.
Source: working employee

Absolute rubbish. Refurbishment work still ongoing at Deans. New canteen area and offices almost complete. They would hardly be doing all this if the place was shutting down.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I notice on BusTimes.org that Lothian buses seem to track continuously, not just when they are in service, so tens of buses are shown tracking at the depots.

Do you know what causes this, I’ve not seen it for any other operators, do the ticket machines stay logged in permanently?

Unless the batteries are disconnected the ticket machines stay in idle mode (presumably for updates over wifi, can turn on the ticket machine when everything else is off with the master switch). Not sure about the AVLs, though I think the batteries can last for a few days before their tracker is turned off.

 

[VolvoDaft]

I don't think this will happen.
Livingstone garage was set up before the pandemic (i.e. before the government funding was awarded) therefore I would think it likely that it will still remain there after the funding is complete

Absolute rubbish. Refurbishment work still ongoing at Deans. New canteen area and offices almost complete. They would hardly be doing all this if the place was shutting down.

Just remember, 3 of your current services can run from Longstone, if you ask me, the Deans depot is just an extra cost. Moving back to longstone excludes the need for extra management & depot costs. For the size of the operation Lothian run from West Lothian there is really no need for that depot to be there. If they can save money running the services from longstone then trust me they will. It's just a matter of time.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Just remember, 3 of your current services can run from longstone, if you ask me, the deans depot is just an extra cost, moving back to longstone excludes the need for extra management & depo costs, for the size of the operation Lothian run from westlothian there is really no need for that depo to be there, if they can save money running the services from longstone then trust me they will. Just a matter of time.

But bear in mind that the depot in Livingstone is in a strategic place; it cuts down the number of miles the vehicles have to run empty (saving fuel, which is a big cost at the moment, one would imagine).

 

[VolvoDaft]

Good point. I would imagine, however the depot's outgoing costs would outweigh the dead run costs. Surely if they are about to pull the plug they would at least give their staff a straight answer rather than let rumours stir, unless they have genuinely not made a decision yet

 

[stevenedin]

But bear in mind that the depot in Livingstone is in a strategic place; it cuts down the number of miles the vehicles have to run empty (saving fuel, which is a big cost at the moment, one would imagine).

I guess it also means that there is room for expansion too.

If they were to remove the depot then they would be seen by the competition that they are withdrawing so they may increase more services to drive them out as it would be easier to stop running when operating from an existing Lothian Buses depot than a specific Lothian Country one.

If they were to withdraw then I would imagine that all of the ex London buses would go to ECB to replace 937-950 and 571-578 would probably move to Central and may or may not operate as Lothian Country still. The B7RLEs would probably all be sold.

 

[Bus9120UK]

If they were to withdraw then I would imagine that all of the ex London buses would go to ECB to replace 937-950

24 buses to replace 14? I guess they could also get rid of 841-850 if this really happened.

 

[stevenedin]

24 buses to replace 14? I guess they could also get rid of 841-850 if this really happened.

Yeah I would imagine so too. I meant that they would probably head west to avoid repainting.

 

[mb88]

Good point. I would imagine, however the depot's outgoing costs would outweigh the dead run costs. Surely if they are about to pull the plug they would at least give their staff a straight answer rather than let rumours stir, unless they have genuinely not made a decision yet

I’ve not heard any rumours stirring at all around the depot.

 

[computerSaysNo]

As I said I would do in the First Glasgow thread, I've made a table summarising the service frequencies for each route for all the Lothian, Country and East Coast services. (I did intend on only including the service frequencies or maybe a very basic summary of vehicles per route, but as you can see I got carried away. )
See the link to the PDF here.

Alt: Link goes to a GitHub page showing a document made by me. The document contains a table showing the frequencies for bus services ran by Lothian Buses, Lothian Country and East Coast Buses for time periods Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Weekday Evenings, grouped by Operator and sorted by Route Number. The document also shows the vehicle types most commonly used for each route.

 

[ScotRail158725]

As I said I would do in the First Glasgow thread, I've made a table summarising the service frequencies for each route for all the Lothian, Country and East Coast services. (I did intend on only including the service frequencies or maybe a very basic summary of vehicles per route, but as you can see I got carried away. )
See the link to the PDF here.

Alt: Link goes to a GitHub page showing a document made by me. The document contains a table showing the frequencies for bus services ran by Lothian Buses, Lothian Country and East Coast Buses for time periods Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Weekday Evenings, grouped by Operator and sorted by Route Number. The document also shows the vehicle types most commonly used for each route.

The 3 is half hourly in the evenings not 20. the 400 is tricky to put a label on as westbound its half hourly until 10pm. The X18 falls into the same boat as the 400 near enough

 

[computerSaysNo]

The 3 is half hourly in the evenings not 20.

Thanks, I've corrected the 3 now.

the 400 is tricky to put a label on as westbound its half hourly until 10pm. The X18 falls into the same boat as the 400 near enough

Yeah some of the routes are weird like that, I'm going to stick with putting down the frequency for the direction with the lowest frequency for now. I'll change it to add in a note about that though, if enough people complain!

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Thanks, I've corrected the 3 now.

Yeah some of the routes are weird like that, I'm going to stick with putting down the frequency for the direction with the lowest frequency for now. I'll change it to add in a note about that though, if enough people complain!

I do like the effort gone into this, I do think that the 26 should have a star (*) saying *From Clerwood to Ayres Wynd because the route then splits into two, one going to Tranent and one going to Seton Sands.

I have also seen a mistake with the 19's allocations, you've put in "GC3's" where it'd be "G3's" for a Wright Eclipse (Gemini 3).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2022 ==

Side note, Lothian Buses list the 7 and 10 services to be between, "15/20 Minutes" although I'm not sure it really matters?

 

[Bus9120UK]

As I said I would do in the First Glasgow thread, I've made a table summarising the service frequencies for each route for all the Lothian, Country and East Coast services. (I did intend on only including the service frequencies or maybe a very basic summary of vehicles per route, but as you can see I got carried away. )
See the link to the PDF here.

Alt: Link goes to a GitHub page showing a document made by me. The document contains a table showing the frequencies for bus services ran by Lothian Buses, Lothian Country and East Coast Buses for time periods Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Weekday Evenings, grouped by Operator and sorted by Route Number. The document also shows the vehicle types most commonly used for each route.

This looks great. I notice a lack of allocations for the night services, would you like if I advise you of what operates each night service?

 

[Stef434]

Absolute rubbish. Refurbishment work still ongoing at Deans. New canteen area and offices almost complete. They would hardly be doing all this if the place was shutting down.

Just relaying info passed to me. I dont work for LCB, so I wouldn't know. Someone is putting it out.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I do like the effort gone into this, I do think that the 26 should have a star (*) saying *From Clerwood to Ayres Wynd because the route then splits into two, one going to Tranent and one going to Seton Sands.

Thanks, I've fixed that now, just added "Frequency for combined branches" in line with the other routes which split.

I have also seen a mistake with the 19's allocations, you've put in "GC3's" where it'd be "G3's" for a Wright Eclipse (Gemini 3).

Allocations for the 19 and 49 I've put as "B5/G3C" meaning "Chassis: Volvo B5TL. Body: Wright Eclipse Gemini 3 Classic", as it seems to be mainly the Gemini 3s with the old-style front (401-425) which operate those routes.
(The notes for all the codes I've used in the "Vehicles" column are at the very bottom of the document.)

This looks great. I notice a lack of allocations for the night services, would you like if I advise you of what operates each night service?

Thanks, yes sure, I had thought all the Night services operated out of Central using B8/E400XLBs but I've been too lazy to look it up so far!
If you know from experience then that would probably be more accurate than me having to check every service on every day of the week on lvf.io.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Thanks, yes sure, I had thought all the Night services operated out of Central using B8/E400XLBs but I've been too lazy to look it up so far!
If you know from experience then that would probably be more accurate than me having to check every service on every day of the week on lvf.io.

All city night services will be B8 E400XLB's (with a B5 E400MMC every now and then), excluding the N22 & N30 which tends to operate eVoRa's and the N31/N44 which are interlinked operating mainly Enviro 400 MMC B5's (Gemini 3 B5LH's also make appearances). The N44 interestingly also has an Airlink XLB used for one run on Saturday, Sunday & Monday mornings.

Lothiancountry's N43 is directly from a 43, so allocations should be the same. The N28, similarly with the N43, comes off an X27 so allocation should also be the same.

EastCoastbuses N106 will obviously be an Eclipse 3 due to the low bridge, whilst the N113 follows a similar pattern to that of the Lothiancountry night services, coming off a part route 113, which again means allocations should be the same. The N124 is operated by anything, with both doubles & singles making appearances.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I guess it also means that there is room for expansion too.

If they were to remove the depot then they would be seen by the competition that they are withdrawing so they may increase more services to drive them out as it would be easier to stop running when operating from an existing Lothian Buses depot than a specific Lothian Country one.

If they were to withdraw then I would imagine that all of the ex London buses would go to ECB to replace 937-950 and 571-578 would probably move to Central and may or may not operate as Lothian Country still. The B7RLEs would probably all be sold.

Why are people gleefully fantasising about what would happen if LCB folded? They're actively investing in the depot and facilities, the fleet is about to be repainted and who knows what expansion might be planned?

Pure fantasy, several posts of "where will all these buses go when LCB withdraws from West Lothian".... unless anyone has any evidence other than third hand chinese whispers? "Someone is putting it out"..... who?

 

[eh1]

The N44 interestingly also has an Airlink XLB used for one run on Saturday, Sunday & Monday

Believe it either comes off a 100 or goes onto one after, I remember seeing this on the duties and wondering what it was about!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Why are people gleefully fantasising about what would happen if LCB folded? They're actively investing in the depot and facilities, the fleet is about to be repainted and who knows what expansion might be planned?

Pure fantasy, several posts of "where will all these buses go when LCB withdraws from West Lothian".... unless anyone has any evidence other than third hand chinese whispers? "Someone is putting it out"..... who?

I know as well as you do that Lothian Country won't be going anywhere imminently, but it's quite amusing coming on here and seeing the speculative fantasy ideas!

Believe it either comes off a 100 or goes onto one after, I remember seeing this on the duties and wondering what it was about!

Looks like it does the 0315 N44 to Balerno and back, then the 0440 100 from South St David Street

 

[eh1]

Looks like it does the 0315 N44 to Balerno and back, then the 0440 100 from South St David Street

Is the N44 from the centre to Balerno? Canteen talk a few days ago was that tri axles can't do the whole 44 due to Macbeth Moir Road (even in a normal bus it was a pain when I did a 44!!) If so that's a handy link to the airport from that direction at that time in the morning!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Is the N44 from the centre to Balerno?

Yes just runs from the City Centre to Balerno these days. The EastCoastbuses N113 now covers the eastern section out to Tranent, with an extension to Ormiston via Elphinstone Research Centre.

 

[90019]

Is the N44 from the centre to Balerno? Canteen talk a few days ago was that tri axles can't do the whole 44 due to Macbeth Moir Road (even in a normal bus it was a pain when I did a 44!!)

Having taken a triaxle round Macbeth Moir, it's definitely doable and I didn't find it any more difficult than any other bus.

 

[computerSaysNo]

As I said I would do in the First Glasgow thread, I've made a table summarising the service frequencies for each route for all the Lothian, Country and East Coast services. (I did intend on only including the service frequencies or maybe a very basic summary of vehicles per route, but as you can see I got carried away. )
See the link to the PDF here.

Alt: Link goes to a GitHub page showing a document made by me. The document contains a table showing the frequencies for bus services ran by Lothian Buses, Lothian Country and East Coast Buses for time periods Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Weekday Evenings, grouped by Operator and sorted by Route Number. The document also shows the vehicle types most commonly used for each route.

All city night services will be B8 E400XLB's (with a B5 E400MMC every now and then), excluding the N22 & N30 which tends to operate eVoRa's and the N31/N44 which are interlinked operating mainly Enviro 400 MMC B5's (Gemini 3 B5LH's also make appearances). The N44 interestingly also has an Airlink XLB used for one run on Saturday, Sunday & Monday mornings.

Lothiancountry's N43 is directly from a 43, so allocations should be the same. The N28, similarly with the N43, comes off an X27 so allocation should also be the same.

EastCoastbuses N106 will obviously be an Eclipse 3 due to the low bridge, whilst the N113 follows a similar pattern to that of the Lothiancountry night services, coming off a part route 113, which again means allocations should be the same. The N124 is operated by anything, with both doubles & singles making appearances.

Thanks, that's it updated now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2022 ==

Having taken a triaxle round Macbeth Moir, it's definitely doable and I didn't find it any more difficult than any other bus.

I would imagine it depends a lot on how well (or otherwise) the cars on the street are parked.
Similar to Westfield Road where the 1 and 2 go, on a good day the traffic island at the north side seems fine to go round, but on a bad day it looks to be very tight, I really wouldn't enjoy trying to take anything longer than a 7900 round it!

 

[Bus9120UK]

Similar to Westfield Road where the 1 and 2 go, on a good day the traffic island at the north side seems fine to go round, but on a bad day it looks to be very tight, I really wouldn't enjoy trying to take anything longer than a 7900 round it!

I've been on 7900's round there hitting the kerb several times, and a Gemini that scratched a car. I can't imagine how tight it must be for an XLB (which has happened several times before!)

 

[eh1]

Thanks, that's it updated now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2022 ==


I would imagine it depends a lot on how well (or otherwise) the cars on the street are parked.
Similar to Westfield Road where the 1 and 2 go, on a good day the traffic island at the north side seems fine to go round, but on a bad day it looks to be very tight, I really wouldn't enjoy trying to take anything longer than a 7900 round it!

I once refused a tri axle after my bus was taken out of service on a 1, as I decided it was too risky to attempt driving a tri axle (for the first time) down that road!

Having taken a triaxle round Macbeth Moir, it's definitely doable and I didn't find it any more difficult than any other bus.

Have you taken one down the 8 and turned left at the Boswall roundabout though? apparently it has been done before....

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’m going to weigh in here on the whole Lothian Country operation.

I can’t see them pulling out any time soon especially with the depot undergoing an overhaul or so I hear.

I am almost certain that Edinburgh City Council have said they won’t be asking for a dividend for quite some time from the Lothian Operation, given added financial pressures as of late. That opens up finances for Lothian city, especially if they use the city's revenue to help run LCB. Externally East Coast Buses has always done decently since Lothian took it over from First moons ago.

 

[stevenedin]

I’m going to weigh in here on the whole Lothian Country operation.

I can’t see them pulling out any time soon especially with the depot undergoing an overhaul or so I hear.

I am almost certain that Edinburgh City Council have said they won’t be asking for a dividend for quite some time from the Lothian Operation, given added financial pressures as of late. That opens up finances for Lothian city, especially if they use the city's revenue to help run LCB. Externally East Coast Buses has always done decently since Lothian took it over from First moons ago.

For whatever reason I don’t know why but, Lothian Country vehicles never seem to be as clean inside as Lothian City buses. Both aren’t perfect but it’s good to have both but improvements could be made here and there.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I don't think this will happen.
Livingstone garage was set up before the pandemic (i.e. before the government funding was awarded) therefore I would think it likely that it will still remain there after the funding is complete.

I know as well as you do that Lothian Country won't be going anywhere imminently, but it's quite amusing coming on here and seeing the speculative fantasy ideas!

It’s like clockwork, every few months someone will say something about LCB pulling out of West Lothian with no concerte evidence

After almost 5 years I don’t see LCB going anywhere anytime soon