Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[mb88]

How many bus stops in Edinburgh are actually set up for dual door use though? Outside of the city centre I’d say very few.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I know that the time can add up during the course of a journey, and further along the line a whole day, but there doesn't seem to be a massive difference between loading times, and considering it worked fine before, I don't see why we would go back to double door operations. I would rather get more bums on seats, especially for a BZL which already has limited capacity.

The double doors are effective on streets such as Prince's Street but I don't think the City Centre and some Shopping Centres are enough to warrant double doors when you could increase the capacity.

 

[CSB0241]

How many bus stops in Edinburgh are actually set up for dual door use though? Outside of the city centre I’d say very few.

Due to the railing layouts at the NE-bound Duddingston Mills stop, dual door buses probably wouldn’t work (impressed that the 4 still used them despite this)

 

[Bus9120UK]

Delete, misread

 

[Vectron383]

I think it's a bit mad that we don't have dual doors, at least for use in the city centre, as they would, without a shadow of a doubt, decrease dwell times especially at Waverley steps where vast amounts of people disembark at once.
I often travel to parts of Europe where everything has at least 3 doors, some of the larger trolleybuses in Slovakia even have 5.
There would be some infrastructure changes needed, or Lothian could introduce dual-door boarding at certain stops only (this would be accompanied by announcements).

 

[ScotRail158725]

172 fresh in Lothian livery

 

[Bus9120UK]

172 fresh in Lothian livery

It was painted for the PVR increase on the 46/48.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I had a look inside the BZL at the Doors Open Day and was not impressed. Similar to the Eclipse 3, the majority of the seats (downstairs in the case of the BZL) involve a step up; the Eclipse 3 only has 6 seats accessible without a step (I didn't write down the total number of seats) and in the BZL I counted I think 8: compare this with Stagecoach specification E200 which has 17 out of 33 seats step-free, E200MMC which has 18 out of 35, a Lothian B5/Gemini 3 has 17 out of the 30 downstairs seats step-free. Every time there's a step it means an older person struggles more, people take longer to get on and off the vehicle, etc .
Anyway, my point was:

I’m assuming that the new BZLs aren’t going to be dual door going off the demonstrator. Why aren’t Lothian investing further into dual doors? Surely they speed up loading times which is what they want. Does the BZL even offer a dual door variant?

As above, the number of step-free seats in the BZL is already very low, adding in another door will just further worsen this.

I would rather get more bums on seats, especially for a BZL which already has limited capacity.

What is the length of the BZLs on order? And is this the maximum length available? (I'm sure it was mentioned upthread that electric vehicles would always be shorter than diesel vehicles as they weighed more?)

 

[overthewater]

Has any talks taken place within Lothian about starting new routes.

I see there is another driver open day this Sunday at Lothian country, I suspect they are going after the last of the McGills drivers to make the switch and then planning on seeing what routes they could start?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Has any talks taken place within Lothian about starting new routes.

I see there is another driver open day this Sunday at Lothian country, I suspect they are going after the last of the McGills drivers to make the switch and then planning on seeing what routes they could start?

The answer to this question is the classic "we have to wait and see" unfortunately.

 

[zjsptgzxyspks]

Not impressed with the BZL either. Having been on it once on route 9 and the entire compartment is filled with the odour of formaldehyde. Can't stay on it longer than 20 mins.
The E400s are so far the best ones. They have tinted windows and forced ventilation system which make the vehicle much more comfortable to ride on especially on the upper deck. Can't find these on the BZL.

 

[GusB]

Not impressed with the BZL either. Having been on it once on route 9 and the entire compartment is filled with the odour of formaldehyde. Can't stay on it longer than 20 mins.
The E400s are so far the best ones. They have tinted windows and forced ventilation system which make the vehicle much more comfortable to ride on especially on the upper deck. Can't find these on the BZL.

You can't base your opinion on your experience of travelling on one single demonstration vehicle.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I've been lucky enough to be on 997 five times and for the performance, it was very swift, it does utilise space as useful as it can because, with our current technologies, we can't really make them as spacious as previous diesel vehicles. I was also on 999 three times and like 997, it was very swift and the use of space is better because everything is above you, because it is a single decker of course. Hopefully, Lothian can invest in some Volvo BZL single-deckers in the future as well.

Another bonus, they have not broken down on Edinburgh's streets, I'm looking at you 998!!!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Not impressed with the BZL either. Having been on it once on route 9 and the entire compartment is filled with the odour of formaldehyde. Can't stay on it longer than 20 mins.
The E400s are so far the best ones. They have tinted windows and forced ventilation system which make the vehicle much more comfortable to ride on especially on the upper deck. Can't find these on the BZL.

Have you ever considered the fact that it’s new? Typically anything new has that infamous ‘new smell’. I coped absolutely fine on it for about 2 and a half hours.

997 was a great bus to have around. A great use of space and no rear facing seats either. The legroom issues at the back on the BYD’s isn’t an issue on the BZL as it’s got slightly more space going for it.

 

[danielhogg2005]

I had a look inside the BZL at the Doors Open Day and was not impressed. Similar to the Eclipse 3, the majority of the seats (downstairs in the case of the BZL) involve a step up; the Eclipse 3 only has 6 seats accessible without a step (I didn't write down the total number of seats) and in the BZL I counted I think 8: compare this with Stagecoach specification E200 which has 17 out of 33 seats step-free, E200MMC which has 18 out of 35, a Lothian B5/Gemini 3 has 17 out of the 30 downstairs seats step-free. Every time there's a step it means an older person struggles more, people take longer to get on and off the vehicle, etc .
Anyway, my point was:

As above, the number of step-free seats in the BZL is already very low, adding in another door will just further worsen this.

What is the length of the BZLs on order? And is this the maximum length available? (I'm sure it was mentioned upthread that electric vehicles would always be shorter than diesel vehicles as they weighed more?)

997 had a total of 63 seats, while the Gemini 3s had about 70 seats.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

997 had a total of 63 seats, while the Gemini 3s had about 70 seats.

The B5TL Gemini 3s have 79 seats, the B5LH Gemini 3s have 73 seats and the BZL has 63 seats.

 

[goldisgood]

Anyone in the know have any idea if something's going to be done about the overcrowding from Leith Walk through to Surgeons Hall in the AM peak? Buses are leaving us behind more often than not and the service is becoming almost unusable. It's very clear there aren't enough buses on the route - could the 47 perhaps do without the B8Ls? Or one of the quieter routes could be cut? Always frustrating to see many routes running around empty whilst others are overcrowded throughout the day...

 

[stevenedin]

Anyone in the know have any idea if something's going to be done about the overcrowding from Leith Walk through to Surgeons Hall in the AM peak? Buses are leaving us behind more often than not and the service is becoming almost unusable. It's very clear there aren't enough buses on the route - could the 47 perhaps do without the B8Ls? Or one of the quieter routes could be cut? Always frustrating to see many routes running around empty whilst others are overcrowded throughout the day...

The only thing that I can think to do would be to not use the shorter ex London buses on the 49 but the 7 and 14 generally are slightly longer buses but just not the XLBs.

Whenever I’ve been on the 11, 16 or 31 the XLBs are always full so I can’t see them being removed from those routes. The 47 is the only one that I can think of that uses them and the 100.

I don’t travel on either of those often so can’t comment.

Maybe a frequency increase would be better but you would need to put the suggestion to Lothian Buses.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Maybe a frequency increase would be better but you would need to put the suggestion to Lothian Buses.

Who will almost certainly say no due to the tight resources.

If memory serves me correctly that section already has 9 buses per hour on it, which should be plenty. Again I’m sure these buses aren’t spaced out perhaps as well as they could so that’s probably a more reasonable idea. In an ideal world the 7 and 14 would be spaced out to offer an every 10 minutes service.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Anyone in the know have any idea if something's going to be done about the overcrowding from Leith Walk through to Surgeons Hall in the AM peak? Buses are leaving us behind more often than not and the service is becoming almost unusable. It's very clear there aren't enough buses on the route - could the 47 perhaps do without the B8Ls? Or one of the quieter routes could be cut? Always frustrating to see many routes running around empty whilst others are overcrowded throughout the day...

I haven't witnessed this myself but it sounds like the case put forward for a tram network 20 years ago, or around the time the 22 bus on its Gyle - Murrayfield - Princes St - Scottish Executive route was heavily promoted. At that time Lothian Buses claimed conventional buses couldn't cope with projected passenger demand on Leith Walk. They didn't see a solution and supported migrating to the tram idea. For all I know the argument might stack up, or perhaps they had a vested interest in those days when facing competition from other bus operators and were looking to get a slice of the tram income. This may have been perceived as more secure.
A tram line up the Bridges has certainly been proposed but maybe not something the present generation is likely to see.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think it's probably death of a thousand frequency cuts, the 49 hasn't been played with too much but the seven and 14 certainly have and as it's capacity from there to surgeons hall or minto Street that's needed then they definitely need a solution, I've often wondered if something like and X14 would work during university term time only, root could be something like
Edinburgh college granton, granton Square, closest stop to interchange with the tram, commercial Street, all stops on Leith walk, bridges, surgeons hall, Cameron toll, royal infirmary

 

[VioletEclipse]

I think it's probably death of a thousand frequency cuts, the 49 hasn't been played with too much but the seven and 14 certainly have and as it's capacity from there to surgeons hall or minto Street that's needed then they definitely need a solution, I've often wondered if something like and X14 would work during university term time only, root could be something like
Edinburgh college granton, granton Square, closest stop to interchange with the tram, commercial Street, all stops on Leith walk, bridges, surgeons hall, Cameron toll, royal infirmary

I think this would definitely be popular. I've often wondered why Leith Walk has no express services, while for example Nicolson Street has 4.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I've often wondered if something like and X14 would work during university term time only, root could be something like
Edinburgh college granton, granton Square, closest stop to interchange with the tram, commercial Street, all stops on Leith walk, bridges, surgeons hall, Cameron toll, royal infirmary

This wouldn’t work. It’d get such in so much traffic in the core sections that it’s not any faster than a stopping service. Leith Walk at times can be just as fast to walk down.

I do agree though that some kind of express service should be on offer for the Royal Infirmary.

 

[goldisgood]

This wouldn’t work. It’d get such in so much traffic in the core sections that it’s not any faster than a stopping service. Leith Walk at times can be just as fast to walk down.

I do agree though that some kind of express service should be on offer for the Royal Infirmary.

Could some short workings on the 49 maybe solve this? Whilst capacity issues are only at peak times (as other posters have stated the 9 buses an hour is completely fine for the rest of the day), this would provide much needed extra capacity through to the infirmary.

The only thing that I can think to do would be to not use the shorter ex London buses on the 49 but the 7 and 14 generally are slightly longer buses but just not the XLBs.

Whenever I’ve been on the 11, 16 or 31 the XLBs are always full so I can’t see them being removed from those routes. The 47 is the only one that I can think of that uses them and the 100.

The use of ex-London buses is pretty new, I'm assuming it's due to reshuffling of the fleet with the ex-Lothian Country buses moving into the main fleet? Agreed on the 11, 16 and the 31 in particular - I'm under the impression the 47 can cope without them (feel free to correct me), and maybe swapping a couple of the quieter diagrams on the 47 with busier diagrams on the 7 could provide the extra capacity needed without needing any more resources?

The cross-city working of most of the routes does make them harder to change - from my observations routes like the 25 could probably cope with a lower frequency on the eastern side, which could free up resource, but wouldn't cope out to Heriot-Watt.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

The use of ex-London buses is pretty new, I'm assuming it's due to reshuffling of the fleet with the ex-Lothian Country buses moving into the main fleet? Agreed on the 11, 16 and the 31 in particular - I'm under the impression the 47 can cope without them (feel free to correct me), and maybe swapping a couple of the quieter diagrams on the 47 with busier diagrams on the 7 could provide the extra capacity needed without needing any more resources?

I'm not sure on the exact PVR of Marine routes bar the Service 26 but there has been some shuffles in allocations lately, I suspect a lot of it is due to the 48 being converted from mainly Ex-Londons to B7RLEs, the 19 now using almost exclusively Enviro 400 MMCs and some Ex-Londons have moved from Longstone and Livingston to Marine too, and more recently 1000 to Marine.

 

[Lx008]

Anyone in the know have any idea if something's going to be done about the overcrowding from Leith Walk through to Surgeons Hall in the AM peak? Buses are leaving us behind more often than not and the service is becoming almost unusable. It's very clear there aren't enough buses on the route - could the 47 perhaps do without the B8Ls? Or one of the quieter routes could be cut? Always frustrating to see many routes running around empty whilst others are overcrowded throughout the day...

It’s not just central campus causing problems. The 9 is so full between bristo square and kings buildings that not a single service between 8:30 and 10am has stopped at my local stop even though there are people there every time.
This is alongside the Uni shuttle bus which frequently leaves 15-20+ people behind at bristo square.
Could the AM and PM shuttles possibly be up gauged to XLBs?
Have had to resort to walking 10min to Newington to take a bus towards Kings buildings which aren’t much emptier.
It’s only slightly better leaving kings in the evening.

 

[overthewater]

Does the company have spare drivers to operate an increase within the city area? The company is already under pressure to find new drivers for West Lothian.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I think this would definitely be popular. I've often wondered why Leith Walk has no express services, while for example Nicolson Street has 4.

I'm struggling to see the point in limited stop services using Leith Walk, especially in the context of the Nicolson St arrangement. Do you mean for morning services going towards the city centre they would only pick up at selected stops in areas like Ferry Road or Restalrig before Leith Walk before setting down in the Elm Row area? In the evening would those leaving the city pick up around the top of Leith Walk then operate non-stop until Newhaven (for example)?

 

[bobdoe]

This wouldn’t work. It’d get such in so much traffic in the core sections that it’s not any faster than a stopping service. Leith Walk at times can be just as fast to walk down.

I do agree though that some kind of express service should be on offer for the Royal Infirmary.

Elm Row - Duke St - Lochend Rd S - A1 - Duddingston Rd W - Greendykes Rd - RIE might even be quicker than going on the A7 (this mirrors the 14 on the other side of Holyrood Park).

 

[ScotRail158725]

I think this would definitely be popular. I've often wondered why Leith Walk has no express services, while for example Nicolson Street has 4.

Other than the 14 or 49, the routes down Leith Walk barely go beyond the foot by more than 2 or 3 miles so the demand for those routes mostly include Leith Walk. Heading south, most routes head a good 8 or 9 miles south of Nicholson street serving whole towns. Penicuik, Roslin and Loanhead, Bonnyrigg and Gorebridge and Newtongrange have a much higher patronage than the likes of Lochend and other areas served from Leith Walk, hence why they get more express routes.