Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

So is the plan still for 447-465 to go to Livingston?

Indeed that would appear to be the plan. Unknown what is happening with the 09 plates at Livingston but the 10 ex Motorcoaches Gemini’s will 100% go.

 

[paul0762]

Its certainly a shame, as they were not like this when new, and in fact were the fleet that got me interested in Lothian and buses in the first place!
However, I travel on them regularly on the 31 now and they never rattle as much as some suggest they do. That being said, no rattles would be much preferred.

Was on bus 927 this morning up stairs and not a single rattle from any poles or panels. Built to last

 

[ScotRail158725]

I hope so never heard rattles like it from these buses. Really really poorly built

They’re not the worst for rattling and banging, 496-510 are a worse state than them by miles

Was on bus 927 this morning up stairs and not a single rattle from any poles or panels. Built to last

Same with almost every single one of the Gemini 2 in the fleet

 

[paul0762]

They’re not the worst for rattling and banging, 496-510 are a worse state than them by miles


Same with almost every single one of the Gemini 2 in the fleet

What I would say is, the road surfaces definitely don’t help at all. Some roads are in a terrible state and just cause everything to rattle/become loose

 

[CN04NRJ]

They’re not the worst for rattling and banging, 496-510 are a worse state than them by miles

Absolutely awful buses, right up there in terms of rattles as the worst 63/64 plate long E200s I've driven previously.

 

[CSB0241]

Edinburgh is markedly colder in the winter than both Cambridge and Warrington especially near the beach

I did not think that far.

 

[exeter 50044]

An ex lothian bus enjoying its self in exeter sidwell street.

 

[SoloSR334022]

Bustimes is showing TB7 as last seen on the 24. I assume this is an error?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Bustimes is showing TB7 as last seen on the 24. I assume this is an error?

Yes, control allocated the completely wrong bus onto the board for tracking. I think it was 445?
At that point the training buses had already stopped tracking, so this was a complete one off, with all 'tracking' being an estimated location purely based on the timetable. I have always found this silly as it implies the bus is live tracking when it isn't.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Absolutely awful buses, right up there in terms of rattles as the worst 63/64 plate long E200s I've driven previously.

496-510 are a wreck internally and mechanically aswell, the amount of times ive seen or been on one thats chucked it is incredible

 

[computerSaysNo]

496-510 are a wreck internally and mechanically aswell, the amount of times ive seen or been on one thats chucked it is incredible

I wonder why they are worse than the Zoo 466-495 buses? Hopefully Musselburgh/Marine will be able to improve them a bit once they go to East Coast.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I wonder why they are worse than the Zoo 466-495 buses? Hopefully Musselburgh/Marine will be able to improve them a bit once they go to East Coast.

Perhaps some of the time during conversion will be spent reviewing and working on maintenance of these vehicles. Musselburgh have no maintenance department so they can't do anything but make the vehicles worst when they start doing their express runs on the East Coast network!

496-510 were new on Airlink, and then progressed onto Skylink, which all have very high workloads. I would say more so than the 26.

 

[CSB0241]

496-510 were new on Airlink, and then progressed onto Skylink, which all have very high workloads. I would say more so than the 26.

Airlink duties are much more intense than any other Lothian route, that’s definitely true, but here’s the thing; 496-510 were only used on the 100 for a bit over 2 years if my memory serves me right, whereas the other 17-plates have seen action on the 26 (which was every 7-8min Monday through Saturday pre-covid, & every 10min Mon-Sat now) for the better half of a decade (should be 8 years in Fall/Winter if I recall correctly). Skylink duties have always been more relaxed than the 26 ones, so I think that whilst 496-510 have gotten a lot of usage over the past near 8 years, 466-495 have probably been through more than them.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Is it just me, or is the suspension on some of 426-437 worse then the rest of the fleet, having experienced them on many occasions espescially recently, speed bumps which other buses have no issue with can be very uncomfortable on those.

Edinburgh is markedly colder in the winter than both Cambridge and Warrington especially near the beach

There is the question of wether this city really is the ideal place for pure battery electric buses is very much relevant, due to a comnination of steep hills on many routes, negative temperatures on many winter days, range issues and space for charging infrastructure and all. It's certainaly very possible that the BZLs will prove a massive success, but so far they've been a bit mediocre in my opinion.

 

[FP transport v]

Overall, all of the Gemini 3's are just awful buses. From my personal experience 446-495 seem to be the best for build quality out of the lot though. I remember someone saying that Marine had fixed them up to improve the rattles but I doubt this is true. Realistically the only real issue with 496-509 is the luggage racks, on most of them they have practically come detached from the rest of the bus but other than that they are nowhere near as bad as 446-465 where the entire bus sounds like it's falling apart and the wall on the upper deck next the the stairs violently shakes and all the bolts holding it in come out.

Is it just me, or is the suspension on some of 426-437

Yes I know exactly what you mean, the suspension on those ones just feels rock solid and does not absorb the bumps at all

 

[Vectron383]

Is it just me, or is the suspension on some of 426-437 worse then the rest of the fleet, having experienced them on many occasions espescially recently, speed bumps which other buses have no issue with can be very uncomfortable on those.


There is the question of wether this city really is the ideal place for pure battery electric buses is very much relevant, due to a comnination of steep hills on many routes, negative temperatures on many winter days, range issues and space for charging infrastructure and all. It's certainaly very possible that the BZLs will prove a massive success, but so far they've been a bit mediocre in my opinion.

I think that in the medium term Edinburgh could prove to be a great example of the benefits of opportunity charging at key points, eg airline services waiting to start their next journey at each terminus. The tech is not quite there yet, but as with most developments it will get there soon.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would say that opportunity charging might be the only way of giving Edinburgh a 24/7 electric bus service. Seems to be working okay on the 36 down in Harrogate so perhaps a couple of people from Lothian need to go on holiday for the weekend to Yorkshire

 

[stevenedin]

Glasgow has a lot of hills and their electric buses seem to run fine apart from those with design flaws that had to be removed temporarily

 

[Kilmux]

Apologies if I've missed it, but I haven't seen an explanation on this blog as to why deliveries of the BZLs have been so long delayed. There was a suggestion some months ago that they hadn't been built to spec. Also, why are some having to go to Ferrymill on delivery?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Glasgow has a lot of hills and their electric buses seem to run fine apart from those with design flaws that had to be removed temporarily

Glasgows not really hilly especially in comparison to Edinburgh so that comparison is not valid at all. And Glasgow restrict their electrics to non motorway work unless as a last resort so their electrics have their own problems

 

[Spsf3232]

Glasgows not really hilly especially in comparison to Edinburgh so that comparison is not valid at all. And Glasgow restrict their electrics to non motorway work unless as a last resort so their electrics have their own problems

Glasgow has the electrics out on Motorway work every day

 

[Bus9120UK]

Apologies if I've missed it, but I haven't seen an explanation on this blog as to why deliveries of the BZLs have been so long delayed. There was a suggestion some months ago that they hadn't been built to spec. Also, why are some having to go to Ferrymill on delivery?

As for initial delays I'm not 100% sure. I would think that they took longer due to the number of orders MCV are working through, and then the initial deliveries were returned due to them having incorrect specification when delivered. (Silver poles were a visible error in some of the photos taken, not sure about any other issues beyond that).
More recently, I assume they've been addressing the heating issues which have been discussed. May Ferrymill have agreed to apply the solution to 715-717 and 722? There is no particular rush for any of these to enter service as they are not needed just yet, though 722 has come back to Edinburgh and is taxed as of this month.

Unrelated, but here is the current repaint progress. Away at Ferrymill are 7900s 1 and 13, as well as B5TL 419. 1 departed this morning swapping for 70. Being prepared for Ferrymill departures are 88 and 420, while 356/65 are being prepared for Seafield part repaints. Recent completions are 66, 87, 367, 387, 395 and 421.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

As for initial delays I'm not 100% sure. I would think that they took longer due to the number of orders MCV are working through, and then the initial deliveries were returned due to them having incorrect specification when delivered. (Silver poles were a visible error in some of the photos taken, not sure about any other issues beyond that).
More recently, I assume they've been addressing the heating issues which have been discussed. May Ferrymill have agreed to apply the solution to 715-717 and 722? There is no particular rush for any of these to enter service as they are not needed just yet, though 722 has come back to Edinburgh and is taxed as of this month.

Unrelated, but here is the current repaint progress. Away at Ferrymill are 7900s 1 and 13, as well as B5TL 419. 1 departed this morning swapping for 70. Being prepared for Ferrymill departures are 88 and 420, while 356/65 are being prepared for Seafield part repaints. Recent completions are 66, 87, 367, 387, 395 and 421.

722 and an unnumbered one (registered SD74KRG) were at Volvo, Cardonald on the 17th January.

 

[ScotRail158725]

As for initial delays I'm not 100% sure. I would think that they took longer due to the number of orders MCV are working through, and then the initial deliveries were returned due to them having incorrect specification when delivered. (Silver poles were a visible error in some of the photos taken, not sure about any other issues beyond that).
More recently, I assume they've been addressing the heating issues which have been discussed. May Ferrymill have agreed to apply the solution to 715-717 and 722? There is no particular rush for any of these to enter service as they are not needed just yet, though 722 has come back to Edinburgh and is taxed as of this month.

Unrelated, but here is the current repaint progress. Away at Ferrymill are 7900s 1 and 13, as well as B5TL 419. 1 departed this morning swapping for 70. Being prepared for Ferrymill departures are 88 and 420, while 356/65 are being prepared for Seafield part repaints. Recent completions are 66, 87, 367, 387, 395 and 421.

have 417/420 been repainted aswell?
And i take it the 7900s are going through the reapint process next with the evroas

 

[Bus9120UK]

have 417/420 been repainted aswell?
And i take it the 7900s are going through the reapint process next with the evroas

417 was the first of the batch to be repainted this year. 420 is in preparation as I mentioned.

 

[Stan Drews]

There have been various comments about hilly routes and electric buses not being suitable. I wonder if these commentators actually have any knowledge of EV operation, as it’s my understanding (and experience) that coming down hills is actually very useful on EVs as it puts power back into the batteries. It is actually lengthy flat sections of continual running that has the greatest negative impact on battery charge, hence they aren’t ideal on lots of motorway work.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Unrelated, but here is the current repaint progress. Away at Ferrymill are 7900s 1 and 13, as well as B5TL 419. 1 departed this morning swapping for 70. Being prepared for Ferrymill departures are 88 and 420, while 356/65 are being prepared for Seafield part repaints. Recent completions are 66, 87, 367, 387, 395 and 421.

I always thought it would be interesting to travel on those types of buses on a fast motorway route for a change.

 

[citybus2500]

There have been various comments about hilly routes and electric buses not being suitable. I wonder if these commentators actually have any knowledge of EV operation, as it’s my understanding (and experience) that coming down hills is actually very useful on EVs as it puts power back into the batteries. It is actually lengthy flat sections of continual running that has the greatest negative impact on battery charge, hence they aren’t ideal on lots of motorway work.

Indeed, that is the case. As buses will generally come down the hills as often as they go up them, the fact there is a hill has very little consequence to overall energy usage. The same also applies to busy stop/start operations, lots regen from the brakes.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

Bus 44 has been listed on the East Coast tracker. I am assuming this is an error.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Bus 44 has been listed on the East Coast tracker. I am assuming this is an error.

Indeed it is. Happens constantly.