Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Porty]

Sorry, but hard disagree. Unfortunately councillors disagreed.

Stop spacing in Edinburgh and the Lothians is just ridiculous. The fact that the 20mph limit didn't slow schedules down is the biggest red flag that stops are too close together and poorly sited. I hate saying London has it better, but even Glasgow does stop spacing better.

Yet some stops are a long way apart - and stops (with a retained shelter) have been closed for no obvious reason. The southbound stop on George IV Bridge, close to Chambers Street, comes to mind. Especially as the National Museum of Scotland is a key destination and is close by. It's quite a long distance between the stop outside the National Library and Lauriston Place.

 

[Lx008]

That’s at most a 5min walk, which means you are always within 2.5min of a bus stop, on what planet does that count as far

 

[NorthEastern]

Given the general traffic speed in Edinburgh city centre you are as well getting off and walking rather than crawling along on the bus to the stop, if it were open.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Sorry, but hard disagree. Unfortunately councillors disagreed.

Stop spacing in Edinburgh and the Lothians is just ridiculous. The fact that the 20mph limit didn't slow schedules down is the biggest red flag that stops are too close together and poorly sited. I hate saying London has it better, but even Glasgow does stop spacing better.

Quite correct in my opinion. Stop spacing in Edinburgh's city centre seems reasonable and maybe slightly on the sparse side with work on North Bridge and the tram constraints. But I believe many stops are too close together in areas where traffic moves freely and buses need to stop for lone travellers.
The process for loading and unloading has slowed a lot since the days when the bus didn't even come to a halt and passengers would jump on or off the platform. I reckon rationalising stops would improve journey times better than many bus lane schemes.

 

[oldman]

The fact that the 20mph limit didn't slow schedules down is the biggest red flag that stops are too close together and poorly sited. I hate saying London has it better, but even Glasgow does stop spacing better.

A lot of 20 mph limits have been applied to streets where it would be hard to go faster anyway - many of the 'main' roads are still 30.

Edinburgh's problems are narrow roads for modern vehicles, too much on-street parking, lots of traffic signals, a lack of routes avoiding the city centre, little bus priority poorly enforced, etc. No doubt there are cases where stops could be improved, but to see it as a major solution is wrong, and the down side for some passengers is obvious.

 

[NorthEastern]

Quite correct in my opinion. Stop spacing in Edinburgh's city centre seems reasonable and maybe slightly on the sparse side with work on North Bridge and the tram constraints. But I believe many stops are too close together in areas where traffic moves freely and buses need to stop for lone travellers.
The process for loading and unloading has slowed a lot since the days when the bus didn't even come to a halt and passengers would jump on or off the platform. I reckon rationalising stops would improve journey times better than many bus lane schemes.

The reference to boarding and alighting being faster in the old days is correct, you can find YouTube videos of buses in Princes St in the past where the dwell time is only about 2 seconds!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Isn’t the argument for keeping dual door operation valid in these cases? Richard Hall might have been pretty unpopular across the board, but this was one of the few ideas that actually had basis to work.

 

[Baileygirl]

Isn’t the argument for keeping dual door operation valid in these cases? Richard Hall might have been pretty unpopular across the board, but this was one of the few ideas that actually had basis to work.

The argument against the two door layout is both safety and to stop fare dodging by people jumping on while the doors are open

 

[stevenedin]

The argument against the two door layout is both safety and to stop fare dodging by people jumping on while the doors are open

They have cameras at the rear doors and it says "Warning exit doors closing" plus I've always seen the driver wait until after all passengers are on before closing the doors.

I haven't seen anyone get on the rear doors. I don't think that the savings from fare dodgers not getting on will be as much as the savings from reliability that will attract more passengers to board if journeys are quicker.

 

[NorthEastern]

They have cameras at the rear doors and it says "Warning exit doors closing" plus I've always seen the driver wait until after all passengers are on before closing the doors.

I haven't seen anyone get on the rear doors. I don't think that the savings from fare dodgers not getting on will be as much as the savings from reliability that will attract more passengers to board if journeys are quicker.

Agreed. It’s crazy that Lothian doesn’t specify dual doors. European city buses have 2-3 doors commonly.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The argument against the two door layout is both safety and to stop fare dodging by people jumping on while the doors are open

Really easy to monitor with the camera switching to the rear doors when they're open, I shut them as soon as I'm sure the last passenger has alighted. 99% of people who try to get in through the back door are unfamiliar tourists.

 

[Siemens Trains]

fare dodging by people jumping on while the doors are open

A lot of bus journeys are probably free either through concessions or capping, so it doesn't make much sense to either fare dodge in the first place or eschew the benefits of exit doors to preserve revenue.

99% of people who try to get in through the back door are unfamiliar tourists.

I imagine out of the small number who know it's not the correct boarding process, many are just trying to bypass the queue rather than avoid a £2.20 fare.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think given the relatively high general bus usage in Edinburgh plus the increasingly frequent numbers of times a year when the city is stretched to and beyond capacity for gigs and events and festivals that double door operation is the only sensible way forward on all except possibly airport vehicles.

 

[Porty]

That’s at most a 5min walk, which means you are always within 2.5min of a bus stop, on what planet does that count as far

Google Maps suggest a 6 minute walk of 0.3 miles. That's a long way for some mobility impaired people, especially when there are big attractors for visitors half way between the stops - and a former stop with a shelter. It's also 0.3 miles from the preceding southbound stop on The Mound, but there's nowhere practical to have an additional stop, yet it's only 140 yards to the preceding stop on Hanover Street.

 

[Numpt33]

A lot of bus journeys are probably free either through concessions or capping, so it doesn't make much sense to either fare dodge in the first place or eschew the benefits of exit doors to preserve revenue.

The only free journey is a fare dodgers. Bus pass holders have the fare paid by the government (far lower than the standard single fare

 

[Porty]

Really easy to monitor with the camera switching to the rear doors when they're open, I shut them as soon as I'm sure the last passenger has alighted. 99% of people who try to get in through the back door are unfamiliar tourists.

Must admit I've never seen anyone get on via the exit door. As you say it's most likely tourists as it's commonplace in many European cities to get on via any door. Of course there are also more tram routes where multiple doors are in use. The tourists may have previously purchased a paper day ticket so think this is routine and normal as they have a valid ticket.

 

[NorthEastern]

Google Maps suggest a 6 minute walk of 0.3 miles. That's a long way for some mobility impaired people, especially when there are big attractors for visitors half way between the stops - and a former stop with a shelter. It's also 0.3 miles from the preceding southbound stop on The Mound, but there's nowhere practical to have an additional stop, yet it's only 140 yards to the preceding stop on Hanover Street.

I get that it’s far to walk for some folks and I have sympathy. Unfortunately Edinburgh is mainly not laid out on a flat grid street pattern so inevitably stops will be irregularly spaced. It’s really in the suburbs that I think the problem is worst, Portobello Rd / Moira Terrace as an example.

 

[Resuwen]

Must admit I've never seen anyone get on via the exit door. As you say it's most likely tourists as it's commonplace in many European cities to get on via any door. Of course there are also more tram routes where multiple doors are in use. The tourists may have previously purchased a paper day ticket so think this is routine and normal as they have a valid ticket.

I spend a lot of time in Denmark and the multi door setup works very well.

It’s bizarre that the UK - aside from London, Belfast and a few isolated examples elsewhere is so wedded to single door.

In these days of apps and and tap on, it makes sense to change.

 

[mb88]

I suspect the reason may be more down to the private bus operators in the UK being more concerned with their profit margins than their publicly owned counterparts elsewhere. And yes I know Lothian are owned by the council, but they still operate as a private enterprise.

 

[stevenedin]

Looks like that's 938 withdrawn now too.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Having spent quite a bit of time in mainland europe, in a city where you get on and off any door, middle or rear, apart from the front door unless you're actually buying a ticket onboard, it really does make a contrast to trying to get from the back to the front of a packed lothian bus to alight because there's only one door rather than three. I understand that with it being about 20 years since the last time most of the fleet was dual door, there would be challenges in going back to multiple doors for most of the fleet, but it would certainly have advantages I believe.

 

[JKP]

Having spent quite a bit of time in mainland europe, in a city where you get on and off any door, middle or rear, apart from the front door unless you're actually buying a ticket onboard, it really does make a contrast to trying to get from the back to the front of a packed lothian bus to alight because there's only one door rather than three. I understand that with it being about 20 years since the last time most of the fleet was dual door, there would be challenges in going back to multiple doors for most of the fleet, but it would certainly have advantages I believe.

As has been already pointed out above, bus operators in the UK have to consider revenue risk on commercial and subsidised routes. There is also the fact that many bus stops are not suitable for dual or triple door operation and that is before considering errant parking.

 

[Resuwen]

As has been already pointed out above, bus operators in the UK have to consider revenue risk on commercial and subsidised routes. There is also the fact that many bus stops are not suitable for dual or triple door operation and that is before considering errant parking.

That‘s why you have ticket inspectors.

 

[JKP]

That‘s why you have ticket inspectors.

Rarely these days in the uk. Often a small gang on the continent.

 

[Resuwen]

The buses in Denmark are not free, you use an app or tap on to pay.

It is enforced with ticket inspectors - likewise the trains there don’t have station barriers for the same reason.

What is unique about Brits that the idea of people grabbing a free ride would be seen as a much bigger problem?

 

[ScotRail158725]

366 had a whirl on the N113 last night interesting allocation right enough

 

[Bus9120UK]

366 had a whirl on the N113 last night interesting allocation right enough

As did 927

 

[Edirim]

As did 927

And 688 as well this morning

 

[NorthEastern]

The buses in Denmark are not free, you use an app or tap on to pay.

It is enforced with ticket inspectors - likewise the trains there don’t have station barriers for the same reason.

What is unique about Brits that the idea of people grabbing a free ride would be seen as a much bigger problem?

Lack of moral compass in the UK

 

[Siemens Trains]

That‘s why you have ticket inspectors.

Rarely these days in the uk. Often a small gang on the continent.

In Edinburgh we have ticket inspectors on every tram, so there's some precedent. And I suppose conductors were common until about 50 years ago. But realistically we're stuck with multitasking drivers in this country.