LUL All Grades Strike

[bramling]

TfL has already said it'll be honoured but it will be delayed until the summer. It will be based on February RPI (plus a small percentage so will be above inflation).

What is the rationale for delaying until the summer?

 

[DavyCrocket]

What is the rationale for delaying until the summer?

It had always been planned to be paid then.

 

[Lewlew]

What is the rationale for delaying until the summer?

It usual gets paid in April but since Covid, it's been delayed each year until June/July and backdated.

 

[philthetube]

RMT strikes tent to fizzle out fairly quickly, if aslef are involved it is another ball game.

I can see the pension scheme being closed to new starters in the near future.

 

[matt_world2004]

RMT strikes tent to fizzle out fairly quickly, if aslef are involved it is another ball game.

I can see the pension scheme being closed to new starters in the near future.

Reading the interim pension report that has been ruled out due to it discriminating on age

 

[Mawkie]

RMT strikes tent to fizzle out fairly quickly, if aslef are involved it is another ball game.

I can see the pension scheme being closed to new starters in the near future. have a mandate - 98% in favour of strike action if I recall.

ASLEF have an open strike mandate - 98% in favour if I recall. I hope they've been negotiating rather than announcing action.

However, they obviously don't have the station staff and other grades that RMT does, so maybe they don't think 98% of 1700 members carries as much weight as 94% of 11,000 members?

 

[Lewlew]

RMT have been going in to the meetings and stating "we're here to listen" and not providing any feedback or suggestions on how to move forward. Meanwhile ASLEF have actually been negotiating and getting on with things.

 

[endicomark69@g]

ASLEF have an open strike mandate - 98% in favour if I recall. I hope they've been negotiating rather than announcing action.

However, they obviously don't have the station staff and other grades that RMT does, so maybe they don't think 98% of 1700 members carries as much weight as 94% of 11,000 members?

Aslef have disproportionate clout due to being a Driver Only union, if/when they go out it tends to be properly crippling for the service and that's what actually matters - no trains, no point.

As to RMT doing what they always do......well as usual their haste trump's their tactical nouse. Again.

And all they do is turn any sensible examination of what's really going on into the usual, easily dismisable mess for consumption by the Standard/Fail etc.

They don't get the same level of credit as the NHS and Key Workers, but transport workers have been up against this Pandemic just the same, many are just plain knackered and there's not much relief in sight.

 

[Mojo]

Aslef have disproportionate clout due to being a Driver Only union, if/when they go out it tends to be properly crippling for the service and that's what actually matters - no trains, no point.

Not detracting from your point in any way, but it’s worth pointing out that Aslef are not a “driver only union.” The Aslef website says “Any person in the line of promotion to train driver or train operator employed by any railway undertaking, a supervisor who has been so employed and staff involved in the operation of trains on light and private railways wishing to become members of this Society are eligible to join.”

In an LU context, Aslef also have members and reps for Service Control (1 out of 5 on the council) and Operational Managers (again 1 out of 5).

 

[endicomark69@g]

Not detracting from your point in any way, but it’s worth pointing out that Aslef are not a “driver only union.” The Aslef website says “Any person in the line of promotion to train driver or train operator employed by any railway undertaking, a supervisor who has been so employed and staff involved in the operation of trains on light and private railways wishing to become members of this Society are eligible to join.”

In an LU context, Aslef also have members and reps for Service Control (1 out of 5 on the council) and Operational Managers (again 1 out of 5).

No idea if that's been a recent development or they've always had such a provision, but when I was in Ops (out for more than six years now) Station Grades absolutely couldn't join Aslef - it was an iron divide that was resented because many Station Staff would have preferred a more "pragmatic" alternative to the RMT/Finsbury Park Mafia - Tessa always being seen as too small/supine to matter to Management.

This would seem to indicate that as T/Op recruitment is open to all grades internally (or it was pre-Night Tube) that anyone could now join them. It would be interesting to hear from anyone current if it's now the case.

 

[DorkingMain]

Remember the RMT live in the 1970s, and it hasn't dawned on them the world has changed in the last 2 years due to Covid.

The railway hasn't changed much in the last 2 years, except some fluctuations in passenger numbers. Most of us went to work every day, same as always.

Maybe it's dawned on them that COVID is a very convenient excuse to shove through unpopular and unnecessary things for political aims.

 

[westv]

Does this have anything to do with the Met Line action that was due today and tomorrow? I got an email from TFL saying it had been called off but I hadn't seen anything mentioned about it before.

 

[Mojo]

Does this have anything to do with the Met Line action that was due today and tomorrow? I got an email from TFL saying it had been called off but I hadn't seen anything mentioned about it before.

No, that was Neasden depot only and concerned the imposition of rosters.

No idea if that's been a recent development or they've always had such a provision, but when I was in Ops (out for more than six years now) Station Grades absolutely couldn't join Aslef - it was an iron divide that was resented because many Station Staff would have preferred a more "pragmatic" alternative to the RMT/Finsbury Park Mafia - Tessa always being seen as too small/supine to matter to Management.

This would seem to indicate that as T/Op recruitment is open to all grades internally (or it was pre-Night Tube) that anyone could now join them. It would be interesting to hear from anyone current if it's now the case.

It is still the case, since the abolition of the DSM grade, nobody in the stations structure is able to join Aslef.

 

[VauxhallandI]

How do people decide which union to join?

What is the split in members plus non members?

Sorry for silly questions...

 

[Rogmi]

For anyone interested, this was the ballot results...

So:
10,084 members entitled to vote
5,219 members actually voted

Nearly half the members couldn't be bothered to vote. I don't know why that figure is so high.
is it a case of:
"I'm going to come in anyway because I didn't vote for a strike"
"I'll go with the flow and just do what everyone else does on the day"
"I don't agree with all this, so I'm not going to vote"
"I don't give a toss"
?

RMT have a record of calling strikes then not following through or they fizzle out part way through, ending up with egg on their face

Industrial action has to be for something very exceptional (like the Company Plan strike of the 90's) for train staff to strike and lose more than one day's pay, which is why there are never strikes in support of a pay rise.

 

[Dstock7080]

London Underground: Two 24-hour Tube strikes to go ahead, union says

Two 24-hour Tube strikes will go ahead after peace talks with transport bosses broke down, the RMT union has said.
Some 10,000 London Underground workers who are union members have been told to walk out at 00:01 GMT on 1 and 3 March.
The dispute is over plans by Transport for London (TfL) to cut up to 600 station posts, as well as concerns over pay, pensions and working conditions.
TfL described the action as "extremely disappointing" and said no jobs would be lost as part of the proposals.
Walkouts are due to run from 00:01 GMT until 23:59 on both days. The action is separate to the ongoing Night Tube strikes over rotas.

Tube strike goes ahead next week

LONDON TRANSPORT UNION RMT confirmed that members will be taking strike action next week as planned over LU’s continuing refusal to give assurances on jobs, pensions and working conditions in the midst of an on-going financial crisis driven by central Government. The union says that the Mayor...

www.rmt.org.uk

RMT Press Office:

London Mayor blocks progress in ACAS talks

LONDON TRANSPORT UNION RMT confirmed that members will be taking strike action next week as planned over LU’s continuing refusal to give assurances on jobs, pensions and working conditions in the midst of an on-going financial crisis driven by central Government. The union says that the Mayor stands accused of talking the talk over the financial meltdown engulfing transport in the Capital while failing to walk the walk by backing his own staff.

 

[andystock22]

It would seem the tube strike is going ahead on 1 March 2022 and 3 March 2022.

Tube strike goes ahead next week

LONDON TRANSPORT UNION RMT confirmed that members will be taking strike action next week as planned over LU’s continuing refusal to give assurances on jobs, pensions and working conditions in the midst of an on-going financial crisis driven by central Government. The union says that the Mayor...

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[Horizon22]

The RMT even accept in their press release this is "in the midst of an on-going financial crisis driven by central Government".

So they know what the issue is yet try and bring the Mayor into it too - I'm not exactly sure what they want TfL/Mayor to do given how they're basically living hand to mouth right now on short-term arrangements.

 

[CaptainBen]

I can't see much sympathy being generated here. Most of the capital has spent the last two years learning how to function working from home and will do exactly that on 1/3 March. Those that can't are going to be inconvenienced, but they're mainly key workers and targeting them is a bit of a PR own-goal.

Meanwhile the DfT can now reply to TfL's next bailout request with "Even with the money we're giving you, you still don't manage to run a proper service."

 

[Lewlew]

I can't see much sympathy being generated here. Most of the capital has spent the last two years learning how to function working from home and will do exactly that on 1/3 March. Those that can't are going to be inconvenienced, but they're mainly key workers and targeting them is a bit of a PR own-goal.

Meanwhile the DfT can now reply to TfL's next bailout request with "Even with the money we're giving you, you still don't manage to run a proper service."

There's not much agreement internally either. Most of the un-brainwashed non RMT members don't get why they're striking.

Even within the RMT, less than 50% of their members voted for strike action.

 

[endicomark69@g]

There's never "sympathy" from the outside when Strike Action happens on any Transport Mode - how much sympathy did the Climate Emergency Protesters get when they blocked slip-roads to the M25 recently? None from anyone affected. That's the point. They don't need "sympathy" they want to make "their" point.

Culling 600-odd posts just because Central Govt wants the Payroll reduced matters a great deal to a lot of Grades that will see paths to promotion get narrower, and more likely mean a worsening of on-shift conditions at many locations that aren't exactly swimming with staff at present in the first place.

Quite a few Staff understand all too well that behind the "nobody is losing a job" Line is exactly what I've mentioned above - and it's not just The Finsbury Park Mafia pushing for this one, the Pensions "threat" is beginning to sound like a real problem to more than just the usual suspects.

The RMT Leadership might be a bunch of Dinosaurs, but that doesn't mean they are ALWAYS stupid, they are fully aware that current DfT agendas are politically driven and NOT benign. They aren't just going to change strategy in the face of that.

 

[greyman42]

I can't see much sympathy being generated here. Most of the capital has spent the last two years learning how to function working from home and will do exactly that on 1/3 March. Those that can't are going to be inconvenienced, but they're mainly key workers and targeting them is a bit of a PR own-goal.

I agree but own-goals have never worried the RMT in the past so i don't see why they will now.

 

[bramling]

There's not much agreement internally either. Most of the un-brainwashed non RMT members don't get why they're striking.

Even within the RMT, less than 50% of their members voted for strike action.

To be fair to RMT, the two main issues seem to be pensions and train op grade consolidation.

Both of these are an example of LU quite considerably moving goalposts. In the case of grade consolidation I have to say I wouldn’t be overly happy if I were in the position where a completely new service is introduced which suddenly resulted in me having to work quite a few extra nights per year, premium payment or otherwise. I know LU’s perspective is that it shouldn’t be too hard to find someone prepared to do a swap, but one shouldn’t have to rely on that all the time.

But by the same token with ASLEF content with the new arrangement, it’s unlikely to be something RMT are going to win.

Pensions will be a salient issue if the review leads to invasive changes, and if this turns out to be the case then we can be assured this will be something we hear a lot more about in due course, almost certainly with ASLEF involvement (and probably TSSA too). I do feel RMT are jumping the gun though, as I sense pension changes aren’t something TFL particularly wants to do off their own back, they are being pushed into it by Johnson.

 

[Lewlew]

To be fair to RMT, the two main issues seem to be pensions and train op grade consolidation.

Both of these are an example of LU quite considerably moving goalposts. In the case of grade consolidation I have to say I wouldn’t be overly happy if I were in the position where a completely new service is introduced which suddenly resulted in me having to work quite a few extra nights per year, premium payment or otherwise. I know LU’s perspective is that it shouldn’t be too hard to find someone prepared to do a swap, but one shouldn’t have to rely on that all the time.

But by the same token with ASLEF content with the new arrangement, it’s unlikely to be something RMT are going to win.

Pensions will be a salient issue if the review leads to invasive changes, and if this turns out to be the case then we can be assured this will be something we hear a lot more about in due course, almost certainly with ASLEF involvement (and probably TSSA too). I do feel RMT are jumping the gun though, as I sense pension changes aren’t something TFL particularly wants to do off their own back, they are being pushed into it by Johnson.

Train Op grade consolidation is not part of this dispute. That is the 6 month night tube only strikes (that is having very little impact on the service ran).

Pensions is just a review, doesn't mean that anything will be implemented. There is nothing that the company can guarantee as nothing has been proposed to change.

There's talk of changes to Train Op framework agreements (mainly about overtime). There have been consultations ongoing for the past few months with nothing actually proposed from the company yet. The company want overtime. The drivers want overtime. The RMT does not want overtime for the only grade in the company that currently do not do it.

TfL announced last year that there would be 500 job losses within stations. However, no one would lose their job, no one is being made redundant. No voluntary redundancy is being offered. Everyone at the end of the day will keep their job. It just means if someone moves on then their position may not get filled. They are still recruiting for station staff judging by posts on these forums and back filling vacancies caused by covid.

This is a station staff strike, they've lumped the rest of it in to get the drivers on side. The drivers will unnecessarily lose up to 2 days pay. Station staff will do overtime to make up for any losses.

The only thing the company can change is reversing the 500 job "cuts". Nothing else has been proposed so nothing else to reverse/change.

ASLEF have had an active mandate for over a year now and still haven't felt the need to walk out.

 

[notverydeep]

There's never "sympathy" from the outside when Strike Action happens on any Transport Mode - how much sympathy did the Climate Emergency Protesters get when they blocked slip-roads to the M25 recently? None from anyone affected. That's the point. They don't need "sympathy" they want to make "their" point.

This is not 100% the case. I was significantly held up by one of these protests, yet understand and sympathise with their view that the rapid decarbonisation needed will not be achieved without this sort of pressure…

 

[IBLRG]

One of our members will be travelling down to London on Thursday the 3rd of March.

If the strikes still goes ahead roughly what sort of reduction in frequency are you looking at please ?

 

[bramling]

One of our members will be travelling down to London on Thursday the 3rd of March.

If the strikes still goes ahead roughly what sort of reduction in frequency are you looking at please ?

Probably fairly minimal, unless significant numbers of control staff go out. I'd say that's unlikely at this point. If or when pensions get properly threatened then that will be a different matter entirely.

 

[Lewlew]

One of our members will be travelling down to London on Thursday the 3rd of March.

If the strikes still goes ahead roughly what sort of reduction in frequency are you looking at please ?

Lots of station closures and minimal train services (if any).

 

[Goldfish62]

One of our members will be travelling down to London on Thursday the 3rd of March.

If the strikes still goes ahead roughly what sort of reduction in frequency are you looking at please ?

Where they are travelling from and to in London? There's still a comprehensive bus service and central London isn't actually too big to be able to walk to most places comfortably, assuming said person is able-bodied.

 

[duncanp]

One of our members will be travelling down to London on Thursday the 3rd of March.

If the strikes still goes ahead roughly what sort of reduction in frequency are you looking at please ?

I would have a look and see what sort of service is operated during the first strike tomorrow (1st March)

This will give you a likely indication about what will happen on Thursday.

The TfL website say it is "highly likely" no tube services will run, but until the actual day of the strike no-one knows what will happen.

When I lived in London, my experience of tube strikes was that any services which did run started later than normal, and could be withdrawn in the middle of the day if people for later shifts didn't turn up.

I suspect a lot of people will work from home, and others will postpone non essential journeys, which will help to alleviate overcrowding.

If you say where your member is arriving into London, and what is their final destination, then someone can advise on possible alternative options.