• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Lumo driving standard

Status
Not open for further replies.

gimmea50anyday

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2013
Messages
3,456
Location
Back Cab
Not all the lumo drivers are ex t+w metro, and it should be pointed out that since the sunderland extension. T+W drivers have had to adhere to the national rail rulebook . Some drivers are ex TPE conductors, Northern conductors and drivers, management have come from FCC, GC and Northern and customer ambassadors are ex Rail Gourmet, XC and airline. A lot of experience are operating those trains, this is not the mickey mouse operation some people with to portray it as...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,498
There’s something a little odd about this entire thread…

That was my thought...

Though to be fair to the OP, I don't think their post was the most remarkable aspect of this thread or the thing that would have caused a bit of a s***storm in a normal TOC! :lol:
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,984
All in all, I think Clarence Yard's response shows a particularly good level of customer service; proactively monitoring social media channels for customer concerns and feedback, looking into it and providing a speedy response to the customer.

Too kind, thanks! Actually I’m someone who combines being a professional railwayman with an interest in learning about railways in other parts of these isles and social media is a good place to pick up on what is going on and be able to give something back, as far as I am able to do so without getting sacked!

As to another post and whether general queries get on a drivers file. Definitely not, in the TOCs I have influence over, at least. This hasn’t changed since the days when I started on the railway when, and only when, a query got elevated to formal action did a copy go on the drivers PF. We had general files at KX for such matters, including the “please explain” letters (which I had to send out) and their replies. A lot of the queries then were asking for reports on failures and rough journeys by titled punters on sleeping cars!

Social media is a powerful tool but if something goes unanswered it can be taken as gospel or twisted by others and then fiction can become fact. Professionally I am interested in how the 80x series units are being handled because they are a powerful train and the step up for some drivers is a big one. Someone, on a 1980’s theme, described their transition from what they were driving as being “from a Mini Metro to a Ford Sierra Cosworth”!

Remembering my days of sending out the “PX” letters and the fuss and bother they caused, I am a great fan of using downloads to answer queries without having to bother the driver, as well as them being a good training aid, if used properly.
 

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
am a great fan of using downloads to answer queries without having to bother the driver, as well as them being a good training aid, if used properly.

Downloads can be very subjective. The evidence they provide is very black and white but you do not see the reasons why something may have happened. They need to be backed up by other evidence.


I would certainly ask that when you are downloading a unit and the Driver is exonerated, Would this be added to the Drivers file or just a quick personal note and then binned. Keeping clear evidence that a Driver was investigated and then cleared is just s important as download evidence that goes against a Driver. Where does that line get drawn when dealing with a generic social media comment ?

I would also like to understand that on what grounds are unofficial investigations taking place; that would be outside the Drivers standard CMS cycle, but not declared to the Driver. Surely internal procedures must still be followed; especially if a Driver was specifically being investigated.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,836
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Downloads can be very subjective. The evidence they provide is very black and white but you do not see the reasons why something may have happened. They need to be backed up by other evidence.

The idea is that the person interpreting the download should know what they’re doing. Yes if something of concern appears on a download then of course the next step is going to be to get the driver’s side of the story, but this is hardly going to be necessary if there’s “nothing to see here”. Why would you need or want to go chasing a driver over something which isn’t there?

So passenger alleges driver was speeding. Review a download and find the train never exceeded the speed profile. Why would anyone need or want to be getting the driver off the train in that scenario? Obviously it does require the manager to be clued up, but that’s a separate issue (we did have a case at my place where an investigation went further than it should for a so-called SPAD on a repeater signal, but that sort of thing really shouldn’t happen!).

I would certainly ask that when you are downloading a unit and the Driver is exonerated, Would this be added to the Drivers file or just a quick personal note and then binned. Keeping clear evidence that a Driver was investigated and then cleared is just s important as download evidence that goes against a Driver.

At my place, officially there should always be a report generated, as officially we can’t raise the order for a download without a case reference. This sort of thing may well be more for those fleets which are maintained by the manufacturer (be curious if anyone could say what the position is on this with the contractually oriented Hitachi fleets?!). Certainly for non-manufacturer-maintained fleets at my place, where there aren’t the contractual hoops to jump through, it could be done with a simple phone call to a depot.

Really there should be an audit trail, as you don’t as a duty-holder want to wrap up a passenger allegation, bin the evidence, and then find a couple of months down the line there’s an email from the ORR, the initial reporter having repeated the allegation to them. Worth keeping the copy of the download saved somewhere for that reason alone.

I would also like to understand that on what grounds are unofficial investigations taking place; that would be outside the Drivers standard CMS cycle, but not declared to the Driver. Surely internal procedures must still be followed; especially if a Driver was specifically being investigated.

Personally, I would take the view that the driver is only being investigated at the point if and where a red flag of whatever sort showed up.

Certainly I take the view that any report emanating from a member of the public is essentially unconfirmed until there is something solid to substantiate it, which in most cases will be either a download or perhaps in some cases CCTV. Obviously if a report is serious then it may well have to be that a driver needs to be taken off the trains immediately as a precaution, especially if a D&A contravention is alleged.

To be honest, I don’t think any of this is for people to be worrying too much about. In virtually all cases it will be the case that there’s “nothing to see here”, and in the rare event that something does flag up then better to have it addressed before the issue develops into a full safety-related incident.

One does have to add: if someone is sufficiently worried that someone in a position of responsibility is looking at a download, one does wonder what they fear might be found!
 
Last edited:

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,984
Downloads can be very subjective. The evidence they provide is very black and white but you do not see the reasons why something may have happened. They need to be backed up by other evidence.


I would certainly ask that when you are downloading a unit and the Driver is exonerated, Would this be added to the Drivers file or just a quick personal note and then binned. Keeping clear evidence that a Driver was investigated and then cleared is just s important as download evidence that goes against a Driver. Where does that line get drawn when dealing with a generic social media comment ?

I would also like to understand that on what grounds are unofficial investigations taking place; that would be outside the Drivers standard CMS cycle, but not declared to the Driver. Surely internal procedures must still be followed; especially if a Driver was specifically being investigated.

In olden days there would be a general correspondence file for incidents, nowadays it’s all on your operators cloud filing system and it isn’t binned. But, as long as you have that info safely filed, there really is no need to clutter up a drivers PF with stuff that isn’t really relevant.

Social media is equal to the written or telephone complaint of old so if something crops up that needs resolving it will tend to be looked at before it festers.

Any download I ask for isn’t unofficial. I (and others) are able to ask for one of any of our TOCs and the driver himself isn’t being “investigated” per se, primarily it’s just to find out what actually happened to a particular train. Only if something comes up that warrants further action will it become a matter to involve the driver and then the TOC procedures would kick in. Again back in the 1970’s, a query could be answered without even asking the driver, he wouldn’t know his train was being looked at in detail (by control graphs or signal logs) and there would be no note on his PF.

Normally I use downloads for train running information, primarily to see what external factors were affecting that journey or if that train itself has a maintenance related issue and what that has done to train performance. That never involves telling the driver because I am not really looking at what he or she did or did not do. Incidentally, I never know the name of the driver concerned.
 

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,704
Wasn’t it the case in years gone past that had a driver would have several years of experience of slower trains for being allowed to handle 100 mph+ trains ?
 

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
Normally I use downloads for train running information, primarily to see what external factors were affecting that journey or if that train itself has a maintenance related issue and what that has done to train performance. That never involves telling the driver because I am not really looking at what he or she did or did not do. Incidentally, I never know the name of the driver concerned.

And this is where we are probably talking cross purposes. I am thinking from a Driver Manager perspective where an alleged incident has or hasn't happened. If your looking at Downloads from an Engineering perspective then yes. Checking units for whatever maintenance needs or general health checks etc. are not really going to go on a Drivers file. We have those all the time. Engineering use data from the remote monitoring system but Driver Managers use data from the OTDR
 
Joined
29 Oct 2021
Messages
180
Location
Newton Abbot
Wasn’t it the case in years gone past that had a driver would have several years of experience of slower trains for being allowed to handle 100 mph+ trains ?
"Senior men for senior jobs". Times have changed, personally I found slow speed sprinter work more demanding than high speed. Simply initial speed and a rate of deceleration; in combination with driveability.
 
Joined
11 Jul 2020
Messages
44
Location
Wigan
"Senior men for senior jobs". Times have changed, personally I found slow speed sprinter work more demanding than high speed. Simply initial speed and a rate of deceleration; in combination with driveability.
Stopping services are far more challenging than express high speed services. You're much more at risk of becoming a cropper on them
 

irish_rail

On Moderation
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
4,322
Location
Plymouth
Stopping services are far more challenging than express high speed services. You're much more at risk of becoming a cropper on them
Thats very much a matter of debate. Doing 125mph on busy stretches of railway can be really quite challenging. Yes the b and h can be a pleasant amble when the TSRs aren't out in force, but Reading to London can be hard work. Especially with ATP to consider alongside TPWS , short signal spacing etc etc.
Bumbling along driving stoppers to Gunnislake or Newquay its far easier to "switch off and go onto autopilot" though of course as drivers we work hard to ensure this doesn't happen.
 
Joined
29 Oct 2021
Messages
180
Location
Newton Abbot
Thats very much a matter of debate. Doing 125mph on busy stretches of railway can be really quite challenging. Yes the b and h can be a pleasant amble when the TSRs aren't out in force, but Reading to London can be hard work. Especially with ATP to consider alongside TPWS , short signal spacing etc etc.
Bumbling along driving stoppers to Gunnislake or Newquay its far easier to "switch off and go onto autopilot" though of course as drivers we work hard to ensure this doesn't happen.
High speed appendix C signal spacing is far more logical than slow speed appendix A. For example 125 mph 4 aspect; 60 mph at the single yellow means the red will be no less than 684 m away level gradient. From 684 m, 6 percent g puts you in control. I appreciate driveability comes before any rules of thumb, therefore at this point line of sight will come into play if route knowledge is lacking. Six percent g is considered defensive, notwithstanding low adhesion.

ATP is your guardian not enemy.

Understanding the signal spacing appendices does not form part of driver competence.

Aside, has anyone sat the General Professional Knowledge Schedule 3 exam ? There is a defence here for any driver involved in a serious operating incident that is non compliant to schedule 3 requirements.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ComUtoR

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,571
Location
UK
High speed appendix C signal spacing is far more logical than slow speed appendix A. For example 125 mph 4 aspect; 60 mph at the single yellow means the red will be no less than 684 m away level gradient. From 684 m, 6 percent g puts you in control. I appreciate driveability comes before any rules of thumb, therefore at this point line of sight will come into play if route knowledge is lacking. Six percent g is considered defensive, notwithstanding low adhesion.

ATP is your guardian not enemy.

Understanding the signal spacing appendices does not form part of driver competence.

Aside, has anyone sat the General Professional Knowledge Schedule 3 exam ? There is a defence here for any driver involved in a serious operating incident that is non compliant to schedule 3 requirements.

What are App C and A ? and I've not heard of a General Professional Knowledge Schedule 3 Exam. Is that a new part of the Rulebook ?
 
Joined
29 Oct 2021
Messages
180
Location
Newton Abbot
What are App C and A ? and I've not heard of a General Professional Knowledge Schedule 3 Exam. Is that a new part of the Rulebook ?
Appendix A,B,C ; 3 forms of train separation logic. See attachment.

Numerous elements of schedule 3 will be part of current driver training, not all though. See driver physics thread #63 attached screen shot.
 

Attachments

  • GKRT0075 Iss 5.pdf
    1,021.6 KB · Views: 60

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,498
Location
Norwich
What are App C and A ? and I've not heard of a General Professional Knowledge Schedule 3 Exam. Is that a new part of the Rulebook ?

Oh god no don't engage. It'll derail the thread into some unintelligible ranting about how drivers should be au fait with all the underlying theoretical physics of acceleration, deceleration and anything else you care to mention.
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
967
Wasn’t it the case in years gone past that had a driver would have several years of experience of slower trains for being allowed to handle 100 mph+ trains ?
In "olden days", an express train driver would have had years of experience on the footplate before handling top link jobs (and before that years of experience on the shed "mucking out"). Today, anybody can be trained and put on express train duties with no previous experience. In other spheres, "rookies" would not be allowed to "drive" an airliner or a ship without senior supervision. Train driving has gone down the same route as bus driving (and car driving for that matter) in deciding that, once trained, you can be on your own (and everyone knows that in car driving you learn to pass your test and then learn to drive in the real world afterwards). There is no substitute for experience.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,547
In "olden days", an express train driver would have had years of experience on the footplate before handling top link jobs (and before that years of experience on the shed "mucking out"). Today, anybody can be trained and put on express train duties with no previous experience. In other spheres, "rookies" would not be allowed to "drive" an airliner or a ship without senior supervision. Train driving has gone down the same route as bus driving (and car driving for that matter) in deciding that, once trained, you can be on your own (and everyone knows that in car driving you learn to pass your test and then learn to drive in the real world afterwards). There is no substitute for experience.
Which of course would explain why the railways were so much safer back then. Oh wait.....
 

43066

On Moderation
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
11,811
Location
London
In "olden days", an express train driver would have had years of experience on the footplate before handling top link jobs (and before that years of experience on the shed "mucking out"). Today, anybody can be trained and put on express train duties with no previous experience. In other spheres, "rookies" would not be allowed to "drive" an airliner or a ship without senior supervision. Train driving has gone down the same route as bus driving (and car driving for that matter) in deciding that, once trained, you can be on your own (and everyone knows that in car driving you learn to pass your test and then learn to drive in the real world afterwards). There is no substitute for experience.

Nobody drives a train, express or otherwise, unsupervised these days until they’ve been through aptitude testing and a thorough training programme. Hence standards are a good deal higher now than in the days when the driver could have a couple of pints before work and the second man did much of the driving.

The railways are safer for much the same reason that the roads are safer, nothing to do with driving standards.

I take it you work in the railway industry and are involved with driver competency standards? I rather suspect you don’t actually have the first idea what you’re talking about….
 

Western Lord

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
967
Nobody drives a train, express or otherwise, unsupervised these days until they’ve been through aptitude testing and a thorough training programme. Hence standards are a good deal higher now than in the days when the driver could have a couple of pints before work and the second man did much of the driving.



I take it you work in the railway industry and are involved with driver competency standards? I rather suspect you don’t actually have the first idea what you’re talking about….
I know that you don't have the first idea whether I know what I'm talking about.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,547
The railways are safer for much the same reason that the roads are safer, nothing to do with driving standards.
And these reasons are?
Nobody drives a train, express or otherwise, unsupervised these days until they’ve been through aptitude testing and a thorough training programme. Hence standards are a good deal higher now than in the days when the driver could have a couple of pints before work and the second man did much of the driving.
Not to mention the fact that unlike the car driver analogy made earlier, those standards need to be maintained. Random downloads, cab rides, rules days - yes, other than the downloads those other factors existed in the "olden days" as well, but they show that drivers always need to me meeting those high standards. Regardless of their previous background or experience.
 

Eccles1983

On Moderation
Joined
4 Sep 2016
Messages
841
Downloads can be very subjective. The evidence they provide is very black and white but you do not see the reasons why something may have happened. They need to be backed up by other evidence.


I would certainly ask that when you are downloading a unit and the Driver is exonerated, Would this be added to the Drivers file or just a quick personal note and then binned. Keeping clear evidence that a Driver was investigated and then cleared is just s important as download evidence that goes against a Driver. Where does that line get drawn when dealing with a generic social media comment ?

I would also like to understand that on what grounds are unofficial investigations taking place; that would be outside the Drivers standard CMS cycle, but not declared to the Driver. Surely internal procedures must still be followed; especially if a Driver was specifically being investigated.

Indeed.

If I was still repping I would hit the roof if I found this sort of monitoring taking place outside of driver development/competency management.

I'd go as far to say it's grounds for a dispute - management and staff sides are required to be transparent in this sort of thing. All our downloads are added to the competency system if they are viewed.

Dangerous game to play to be honest.
 

GC class B1

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2021
Messages
454
Location
East midlands
What are App C and A ? and I've not heard of a General Professional Knowledge Schedule 3 Exam. Is that a new part of the Rulebook ?
Appendices A and C are signalling distances and are based on stopping distance curves from various speeds . Appendix A applies to all trains and appendix C applies to high speed trains such as HST and class 800.
 

trebor79

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
4,760
In "olden days", an express train driver would have had years of experience on the footplate before handling top link jobs (and before that years of experience on the shed "mucking out"). Today, anybody can be trained and put on express train duties with no previous experience. In other spheres, "rookies" would not be allowed to "drive" an airliner or a ship without senior supervision. Train driving has gone down the same route as bus driving (and car driving for that matter) in deciding that, once trained, you can be on your own (and everyone knows that in car driving you learn to pass your test and then learn to drive in the real world afterwards). There is no substitute for experience.
So what? So long as the procedures and systems ensure that the driver is safe whilst they get that real world experience, there's no issue.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,836
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Indeed.

If I was still repping I would hit the roof if I found this sort of monitoring taking place outside of driver development/competency management.

I'd go as far to say it's grounds for a dispute - management and staff sides are required to be transparent in this sort of thing. All our downloads are added to the competency system if they are viewed.

Dangerous game to play to be honest.

Why is it any different to, say, a member of the public standing on an overbridge with a camera, checking that drivers aren’t using a mobile phone? Not my personal idea of an afternoon out, but people have done it, and they’re within their rights to do so.

I see little difference to looking at a download. The data on how the train has been operated is the property of the train company at the end of the day, and in my opinion how they choose to use that data should be their own prerogative.

As I said elsewhere, what do people think is going to be on a download that is likely to be incriminating, and realistically what can the operator surreptitiously do with that data if it did exist? And why is it any different to any other media, for example CCTV or even just looking at a train’s timing data?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In "olden days", an express train driver would have had years of experience on the footplate before handling top link jobs (and before that years of experience on the shed "mucking out"). Today, anybody can be trained and put on express train duties with no previous experience. In other spheres, "rookies" would not be allowed to "drive" an airliner or a ship without senior supervision. Train driving has gone down the same route as bus driving (and car driving for that matter) in deciding that, once trained, you can be on your own (and everyone knows that in car driving you learn to pass your test and then learn to drive in the real world afterwards). There is no substitute for experience.

Yes experience is often a good thing, the right kind of experience anyway. But there’s a few things to bear in mind.

Firstly this doesn’t guarantee that someone is going to prove competent, especially with the greater level of aptitude required these days. 100.0% performance is the benchmark nowadays, 99.9% is not enough.

Secondly, where is that line of promotion? Whilst being in a stations role may give an opportunity to demonstrate good timekeeping, conformance to rules, and - perhaps - ability to cope with shifts, this is only a small part of the story. Likewise whilst the job of guard gives an opportunity to learn elements of the job by observation, it’s not always the case that being a good guard translates into having the right attributes to be a driver - the guard’s role is rather people focussed, the driver’s role is lonely and at times soulless.

On balance I’d say the current system of stringent aptitude testing is preferable to getting the job based on seniority, and the fact that todays safety record compares favourably to BR’s would appear to bear this out. No room for complacency though.
 
Last edited:

Eccles1983

On Moderation
Joined
4 Sep 2016
Messages
841
Why is it any different to, say, a member of the public standing on an overbridge with a camera, checking that drivers aren’t using a mobile phone? Not my personal idea of an afternoon out, but people have done it, and they’re within their rights to do so.

I see little difference to looking at a download. The data on how the train has been operated is the property of the train company at the end of the day, and in my opinion how they choose to use that data should be their own prerogative.

As I said elsewhere, what do people think is going to be on a download that is likely to be incriminating, and realistically what can the operator surreptitiously do with that data if it did exist? And why is it any different to any other media, for example CCTV or even just looking at a train’s timing data?

It's completely different.

The data belongs to the train company - granted. But its usage and access are strictly controlled for specific purposes. Each OTMR is stamped with the drivers identifier.

Driver managers can and do dip sample them and this is more than welcomed.

Anyone outside of the Driver chain doing it without a valid reason is unacceptable, furthermore to that all OTMR records are discussed with the driver for means of quality improvement.

You might not agree with it, but there it is.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
3,003
For those in the know, would it be a fair comment to say that it is much harder today to successfully apply to become, and complete the training as, a driver, compared to (say) 30 years ago?
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
18,836
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
For those in the know, would it be a fair comment to say that it is much harder today to successfully apply to become, and complete the training as, a driver, compared to (say) 30 years ago?

Essentially, yes very much so. Simply in terms of numbers, there will be many applicants per post, the high pay sees to that. Having said that, a good proportion of those won’t even get through the initial sifting, but this still leaves considerable competition. Then on top of that there’s the aptitude testing, not to mention the actual training.

Having said all that, perspective is required. We’re not talking about rocket science, if one has the right qualities and is prepared to put some effort in, the job is absolutely within reach.

In times past it was certainly easier to get a foot in the door and then make it into driving without having so many hoops to jump through, especially for the less prestigious work. That is all but gone now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top