Lumo (East Coast Trains) Class 803 Updates/Discussion

Speed43125

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Hi all,
I was looking for a thread to ask a few questions on the stock First are going to use for their new Open Access Operator seemingly named East Coast Trains. Apologies if there already is one, if so, please point me to it.

The stock will be essentially 5-car 801s with the gen set removed. (please refrain from complaint on first Iron Board seating...)

My main question was, given that they have only ordered 5 sets, which would imply they are not planning on any doubled up service, why they haven't just made the trains have 10? or even 11 or 12 carriages? Lower purchase/leasing cost this way? lower risk? Allows future extension of trains to suit demand?
 
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greatvoyager

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Hi all,
I was looking for a thread to ask a few questions on the stock First are going to use for their new Open Access Operator seemingly named East Coast Trains. Apologies if there already is one, if so, please point me to it.

The stock will be essentially 5-car 801s with the gen set removed. (please refrain from complaint on first Iron Board seating...)

My main question was, given that they have only ordered 5 sets, which would imply they are not planning on any doubled up service, why they haven't just made the trains have 10? or even 11 or 12 carriages? Lower purchase/leasing cost this way? lower risk? Allows future extension of trains to suit demand?
Are they restricted to ordering only 5-car trains, as they are open access?
 

D365

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Why would they be restricted in this way?

exactly; only possible reason that springs to mind would be that they will be limited to Platforms 9-10 at KGX? [post-rebuild]
 

D365

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Are there any open access operators who have trains longer than 5-cars?
Could it also be so that they can't take too much custom away from LNER?

Grand Central ran six car HSTs, did they not?
 

Bletchleyite

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On the subject of seats, might they get the design planned for use on Avanti West Coast services instead of Fainsa Sophias?

It appears that FirstGroup/TI are finally coughing up to certify a wholly new design.
 

greatvoyager

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On the subject of seats, might they get the design planned for use on Avanti West Coast services instead of Fainsa Sophias?

It appears that FirstGroup/TI are finally coughing up to certify a wholly new design.
I hope so, considering that the 803s will be standard class only.
 

Speed43125

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...and presumably will be cancelled outright on days when there are are diversions via Cambridge, Lincoln, Leeds / Knottingley, the Durham Coast or the Tyne Valley
At the speed an 801 can achieve on what would be very congested lines clogged with ECML traffic, they'd be thunderbird-hauled anyway, the gen set is more meant to just get the set along the line to a passing loop or station if there is OHLE issue.
 

aiden_g1

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I understand that, but 801s used by LNER have the diesel generator as a backup for moving on low power to, for example, the next station.

The "battery pack" is an even lighter design than the single diesel engine/generator on the 801s making it more efficient and potentially lower track costs too? It's a "newer" technology also and probably why LNER 801 sets were never ordered with it back on the original procurement. That together with their existing 800s already having the same engine/generator fitted, it probably saves on additional maintenance cost for LNER having a standard.
 

D365

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...and presumably will be cancelled outright on days when there are are diversions via Cambridge, Lincoln, Leeds / Knottingley, the Durham Coast or the Tyne Valley

The Class 801s would be little use there, as their diesel power packs would only take them to 30mph max.
 

greatvoyager

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The "battery pack" is an even lighter design than the single diesel engine/generator on the 801s making it more efficient and potentially lower track costs too? It's a "newer" technology also and probably why LNER 801 sets were never ordered with it back on the original procurement. That together with their existing 800s already having the same engine/generator fitted, it probably saves on additional maintenance cost for LNER having a standard.
But the battery pack isn't to allow the train to move, it is to ensure power for the onboard systems such as doors, lights etc.
 

greatvoyager

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At the speed an 801 can achieve on what would be very congested lines clogged with ECML traffic, they'd be thunderbird-hauled anyway, the gen set is more meant to just get the set along the line to a passing loop or station if there is OHLE issue.
I guess the 803s are running less services so it isn't as important to ensure they can move with OHLE.
 

superkev

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But the battery pack isn't to allow the train to move, it is to ensure power for the onboard systems such as doors, lights etc.
From someone who's been boiled alive on a few trains where either the air con doesn't work or theres no power I think taking out the standby engine is a retrograde step. As was said above I'm sure the battery will be sufficent only works power lights, PA, doors and hopefully toilets.
K
 

humbersidejim

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From someone who's been boiled alive on a few trains where either the air con doesn't work or theres no power I think taking out the standby engine is a retrograde step. As was said above I'm sure the battery will be sufficent only works power lights, PA, doors and hopefully toilets.
K

Which is better than nothing, but when there's an OHLE failure of some sort, is it acceptable that these units could potentially block the line, when an 800/801/802 has the ability to move?
 

Speed43125

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Which is better than nothing, but when there's an OHLE failure of some sort, is it acceptable that these units could potentially block the line, when an 800/801/802 has the ability to move?
Well, yeah, there are many classes unable to move without OHLE, obviously the dft made sure the GWML and ECML franchise orders were done this way, but I see no huge reason why a class not having to lug around diesel that'll need replacing every few weeks/months is a hugely bad thing.
it's probably also be disproportionately expensive to fit the V12s in 5 car trains.
 

humbersidejim

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Well, yeah, there are many classes unable to move without OHLE, obviously the dft made sure the GWML and ECML franchise orders were done this way, but I see no huge reason why a class not having to lug around diesel that'll need replacing every few weeks/months is a hugely bad thing.
it's probably also be disproportionately expensive to fit the V12s in 5 car trains.

I can understand why an open access operator would be keen to minimise costs by specifying an electric only product, but when the Dft has incumbered the extra costs of last mile diesel on the principal operator in the name of increasing operational resilience, it seems like a retrograde step to allow an open access operator to potentially find itself in a situation where lines are blocked because of an OHLE failure
 

Bletchleyite

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I can understand why an open access operator would be keen to minimise costs by specifying an electric only product, but when the Dft has incumbered the extra costs of last mile diesel on the principal operator in the name of increasing operational resilience, it seems like a retrograde step to allow an open access operator to potentially find itself in a situation where lines are blocked because of an OHLE failure

Are the WCML units going to have any kind of resilience provision, e.g. batteries?
 

hwl

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Well, yeah, there are many classes unable to move without OHLE, obviously the dft made sure the GWML and ECML franchise orders were done this way, but I see no huge reason why a class not having to lug around diesel that'll need replacing every few weeks/months is a hugely bad thing.
it's probably also be disproportionately expensive to fit the V12s in 5 car trains.
Which saves at least 27tonnes per 5 car reducing OHLE power draw which might be useful given it is constrained in many places on the ECML till the upgrades.
 

superkev

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I can understand why an open access operator would be keen to minimise costs by specifying an electric only product, but when the Dft has incumbered the extra costs of last mile diesel on the principal operator in the name of increasing operational resilience, it seems like a retrograde step to allow an open access operator to potentially find itself in a situation where lines are blocked because of an OHLE failure
It's the fragmented railway where any delays due to failure of the overhead are paid by Network Rail so no financial benefit to the TOC in having a get you out of trouble engine on the train.
I'm of the opinion that all air conditioned electric and loco hauled trains should have a small standby generator, as most important buildings do, to at least power the lighting, toilets, heating, air con and hopefully move the train a short distance.
K
 

greatvoyager

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Which saves at least 27tonnes per 5 car reducing OHLE power draw which might be useful given it is constrained in many places on the ECML till the upgrades.
Also, the single diesel generator is only for low speed moves, so there would still be some kind of delay.
 

hwl

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I can understand why an open access operator would be keen to minimise costs by specifying an electric only product, but when the Dft has incumbered the extra costs of last mile diesel on the principal operator in the name of increasing operational resilience, it seems like a retrograde step to allow an open access operator to potentially find itself in a situation where lines are blocked because of an OHLE failure
The modern OHLE used on GWML and GEML renewal hasn't suffered from failures like the low cost 1980s ECML wiring - may be the best solution is to make sure the ECML wiring is reliable and there aren't failures?
 

hwl

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Also, the single diesel generator is only for low speed moves, so there would still be some kind of delay.
Of which more than half the power is needed to supply auxiliaries on 9car...
The available traction power is equivalent to an 08 going flat out!
 

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