Over 200 left on platform at Newcastle this afternoon for the service heading to London (that isn't due to disruption, due to amount of tickets sold).
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Lumo - new Open Access operator on the East Coast Main Line
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Thumper1127
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I can imagine it will be a draw for people all Sundays. Good departure times from both EDB and NCL, fastest journey of the day, good arrival time at KGX for onward connections. Today may possibly be an excess due to Chelsea fans returning after a night out but in my mind it was always going to be the service to go for. Pity about today’s delays of course.
TheBigD
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1053 ex Edinburgh Lumo was 19 late from Newcastle, only lost 3 minutes en route to Kings Cross arriving 22 late. Considering the disruption it had a pretty decent run.
Thumper1127
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Totally agree of course, I was referring to the wider disruption. It’ll be interesting to see what it does on subsequent Sundays.
Kite159
Veteran Member
The relief service from Edinburgh to London has 10 passengers in the front coach, after Newcastle.
No idea if the rest of the train is busier.
No idea if the rest of the train is busier.
dk1
Veteran Member
It’s not really going to plan is it lol.
Killingworth
Established Member
A1(M) south from Newcastle was very busy today, 60mph max most of the way until we left at Wetherby, heavy rain not helping.
notadriver
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60 mph is a decent speed for road transport but slow for a long distance train.
Mainline421
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This isn't really Lumo's fault though, LNER still have set the CR flag incorrectly set on all their services which makes it appear to users who book online and aren't knowledgeable about how rail fares work that all trains were "sold out" except that one. Of course they shouldn't have handled the result quite the way they did by claiming people with tickets wouldn't be able to travel, but unless LNER fix this the issue is just going to be repeated every time there's a major event.
The existence of the CR flag is a problem which needs to be addressed really. It doesn't reflect reality on the ground anymore and is just breaking online ticket purchase.
This was a lumo service which left nearly 200 people on platform, nothing to do with lner, other than lner end up with lumo passengers on there services!!
43096
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This is Lumo, the company that got its paths on the basis that it was really getting passengers off the airlines between London and Edinburgh, that we're talking about, isn't it? So why would passengers using them be expected to know about how rail fares work.
The same Lumo that tipped its passengers out at Newcastle when they wanted to go Edinburgh earlier on and started the return working there, presumably with the idea that Edinburgh punters make their own way in between. Now, I know the train was very late, but if you're competing with the airlines, it's not great. Even Mr O'Leary doesn't make a habit of terminating short and kicking the punters off.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It strikes me that while the CR flag was a reasonable workaround to a COVID related problem, there need to be several states:
1. Reservations recommended - must be sold with one if any are available, if not then still sell but with a big red warning that the purchaser has to acknowledge
2. Reservations recommended, sale with reservation only - basically what the flag is presently being used for
3. Reservations compulsory - boarding will be refused if no reservation is held and/or a penalty of some kind applies if you do not have one, i.e. as per TGV, Eurostar etc
It's a shame the new reservations system was specced pre COVID.
I maintain that making it absolutely clear to passengers looking up train times "there are no more reservable seats on this train (but you can still turn up and take your chances)" is funademantally a good thing so people aren't surprised by the fact that the 1600 to Aberdeen on Maundy Thursday is, in fact, rather busy.
Discuss what is the best way to achieve that.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Struggling to understand all this. Are you saying that Lumo had 'oversold' (i.e. above and beyond its own capacity, with all seats already reserved) by an extra 200 operator-specific tickets and then simply denied boarding?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's better than most - they have shown the window positions!
Yes!! As they like all operators sell open tickets valid for any of there services. So yes they have sold lots of Lumo open tickets, still readily available to purchase from tickets vending machines with out reservations.
Is this actually a problem in the minds of anyone other than people on a forum though? The LNER website already has said in a pop up, for many years, if there aren't any seats left...
DanNCL
Established Member
Chelsea playing Newcastle United at St James Park yesterday combined with the end of school half term resulting in an unusually high level of demand for Newcastle - London travel. LNER were at capacity today too.
Of those 200 people reportedly left behind, how many of those actually had Lumo only tickets as opposed to off peak or anytime tickets that would have been valid on LNER regardless? Very few I suspect.
None of the web booking engines will sell a Lumo only ticket without a reservation because of the compulsory reservation flag - LNER and Northern’s TVMs (therefore all TVMs at Newcastle and Morpeth) also won’t sell them without a reservation as they require you to select an itinerary before it will sell you the ticket. On Lumo’s network the only places to buy a Lumo only ticket without a reservation are at GTR or ScotRail TVMs at Kings Cross and Waverley respectively, and at a ticket office. Though not impossible, it’s not easy to get a Lumo only ticket without a reservation unless you just happen to use the correct TVM or go to a ticket office, both things which very few of Lumo’s customer base will do.
Yes. See the TOC Twotter feed on any busy Thursday/Friday/Sunday and the "you've sold too many tickets!" Tweets. People simply don't understand that capacity per train is finite, so need some expectation management.
One way around Lumo capacity problems, at busy times, would be if 803’s can be coupled up, and there’s spare units, and crews to do it, then run 2 units together, giving a 10 coach service, wether this is in reality feasible, is another thing.
Having short 5 coach trains running services, always gives the same perennial problem, of overcrowding at busy times etc, the railways should have learned this, from right back when operation Princess happened with 4 and 5 coach voyagers, taking over from long intercity trains, and as long a 5 coach trains, are ordered for long distant services, then it will carry on happening.
Having short 5 coach trains running services, always gives the same perennial problem, of overcrowding at busy times etc, the railways should have learned this, from right back when operation Princess happened with 4 and 5 coach voyagers, taking over from long intercity trains, and as long a 5 coach trains, are ordered for long distant services, then it will carry on happening.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think it's in some ways the effect of them not having set the CR flag when LNER, the majority operator, has set it. The Lumo Only Anytime Day Single is not substantially cheaper than the LNER Super Off Peak Single (and it's only those that can be sold unreserved), so it's not about cheap fares, it's about LNER being "sold out" when full and this short train not. I've noticed a similar effect on the WCML where Avanti have done the same thing, which I'm sure WMT are decidedly unbothered about as they have a lot of capacity at the moment with many of the commuters absent.
It highlights to me that policies on compulsory, half-compulsory or non-compulsory reservations on the main IC TOCs can't really be decided by TOC and there really needs to be a consensus.
Yes but shouting on twitter will occur in all situations regardless of what you actually do.
What I meant was, is there any evidence that negative customer perception actually arises specifically from people who decline a seat reservation / click through a message regarding there being no further available seats on the train in question then getting on and demanding a seat?
When there's disruption you'll get large numbers standing, even from one train being cancelled sometimes. When there's a formation change or no seat reservations on display you'll get the same issue. The solution is to fix the root causes of these things, however
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't believe Lumo's site issues as clear a message as is mentioned there. The LNER one might, but most of them just say subtly "we were unable to reserve a seat", which doesn't normally tally with "you are unlikely to get a seat", rather "you need to join the Euston scrum" (or whatever).
Significantly higher commercial risk there. Who would choose to bear that?
The access rights framework could have stipulated larger capacity allocation. Unfortunately it didn't.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or they could have just paid a little bit of attention to what was obviously going to happen if they didn't follow the same reservation policy as LNER and Avanti*, and set the compulsory reservation flag?
I am as people are well aware not a fan of what LNER are doing, but a small OAO with a couple of 5-car trains per day doing something different to the incumbent was never going to work.
* I know Avanti is on the WCML, but with the CR flag set on both theirs and LNER's trains there will be "overspill" both ways.
You don't get consensus elsewhere. The LNR Crewe to London trains on Fridays are now regularly running full and standing as eight cars while there are vacant seats on Avanti trains at the same times of day, which are "full".
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