Lumo - new Open Access operator on the East Coast Main Line

[Grumpy Git]

I don't believe Lumo's site issues as clear a message as is mentioned there.

I would expect as a budget carrier, their attitude to handing-out information which may adversely affect revenue will be akin to a certain Irish based airline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't get consensus elsewhere. The LNR Crewe to London trains on Fridays are now regularly running full and standing as eight cars while there are vacant seats on Avanti trains at the same times of day, which are "full".

Yes, I posted upthread that it's having a knock-on on LNR, which isn't ideal, but is less of an issue than it could be for Lumo as they have both more frequent and longer trains.

Avanti are in many ways doing it worse because they aren't issuing additional counted places and they aren't providing for easy changing of reservations, both of which LNER are doing.

 

[Starmill]

Or they could have just paid a little bit of attention to what was obviously going to happen if they didn't follow the same reservation policy as LNER and Avanti*, and set the compulsory reservation flag?

I am as people are well aware not a fan of what LNER are doing, but a small OAO with a couple of 5-car trains per day doing something different to the incumbent was never going to work.

* I know Avanti is on the WCML, but with the CR flag set on both theirs and LNER's trains there will be "overspill" both ways.

Look on the bright side. The claime above was two hundred people left behind. Now to me that seems astonishing, but I'm in no position to deny it. So if its correct and 800 - 900 people on some trains are buying the Lumo Only tickets, First Group will quickly have the commercial confidence to order more trains. Only a couple of years to construct them and have them in service.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ouigo have been a moderate success, but have made life much worse for other rail users, since they don't do through ticketing, often don't run into central terminuses, and mostly seem to run instead of a normal train, so reducing options for normal teavellers. Ultimately this kind of thing may end up driving a different market segment back into the air

Lumo are already effortlessly better than Ouigo, because they are managing to run and fill trains without apparently disrupting the existing LNER service at all, and while participating in industry through-ticketing and compensation arrangements.

It's a shame when members are accusing people who happen to completely disagree with them of hysteria. We're having interesting discussions, often with not much evidence or agreement on what counts as a good outcome, and we are coming to very different conclusions about how the railway and the wider world should be. Hopefully in doing that we learn a bit more about what makes each other tick, and become more empathetic as a result.

I agree. It is called freedom of speech.

Look on the bright side. The claime above was two hundred people left behind. Now to me that seems astonishing, but I'm in no position to deny it. So if its correct and 800 - 900 people on some trains are buying the Lumo Only tickets, First Group will quickly have the commercial confidence to order more trains. Only a couple of years to construct them and have them in service.

I am tempted to suggest Lumo will keep it simple and order more intermediate coaches rather than extra units. In the light of experience I wonder if Lumo will consider those extra coaches have engines under them.

 

[Starmill]

I agree. It is called freedom of speech.

I am tempted to suggest Lumo will keep it simple and order more intermediate coaches rather than extra units. In the light of experience I wonder if Lumo will consider those extra coaches have engines under them.

Extending the trains would likely be slightly cheaper and make it easier to maximise passenger seating capacity yes.

 

[cambsy]

That’s one i not thought of, extending the trains if it practicable, i would make them up to 9 coaches, like the incumbent LNER, and maybe fit Diesel engines so if overhead damage,or diversions, then they could still keep operating, relatively normally, not have to curtail journeys.

 

[JonathanH]

So if its correct and 800 - 900 people on some trains are buying the Lumo Only tickets, First Group will quickly have the commercial confidence to order more trains.

It has only been running a week. I suspect the number of passengers will reach a level which can be accommodated in a 400 seat unit once the initial period of promotional fares is over.

I doubt the sums in this are particularly easy. A small change in DfT pricing strategy could result in Lumo carrying fewer passengers.

That’s one i not thought of, extending the trains if it practicable, i would make them up to 9 coaches, like the incumbent LNER, and maybe fit Diesel engines so if overhead damage,or diversions, then they could still keep operating, relatively normally, not have to curtail journeys.

Where is the demand to run five daily trains for 700 people going to come from?

 

[Starmill]

I doubt the sums in this are particularly easy. A small change in DfT pricing strategy could result in Lumo carrying fewer passengers.

It's beyond a doubt that LNER are looking at Lumo price levels as part of commercial strategy anyway, even if the only adjustments made are quite small.

 

[TheBigD]

That’s one i not thought of, extending the trains if it practicable, i would make them up to 9 coaches, like the incumbent LNER, and maybe fit Diesel engines so if overhead damage,or diversions, then they could still keep operating, relatively normally, not have to curtail journeys.

A 9 car Lumo would, based on the current layout, have 770 seats. Do you reckon Lumo could fill them with enough passengers to pay for the extra leasing/access costs that a 9 car incurs?

Some Lumo service use platforms 9/10 at Kings Cross (max 160 metre trains), and also double occupy platforms in the main shed*. Is there space for more 9 cars in platforms 0-8?

* For example, on Sundays the 1456 arrival/1624 departure Lumo service occupies the buffer stop end of platform 0 at Kings Cross, whilst the country end is used by the 1511 arrival/1612 departure to Kings Lynn.

 

[Starmill]

A 9 car Lumo would, based on the current layout, have 770 seats. Do you reckon Lumo could fill them with enough passengers to pay for the extra leasing/access costs that a 9 car incurs?

Some Lumo service use platforms 9/10 at Kings Cross (max 160 metre trains), and also share double occupy platforms in the main shed*. Is there space for more 9 cars in platforms 0-8?

* For example, on Sundays the 1456/1624 Lumo service occupies the buffer stop end of platform 0 at Kings Cross, whilst the country end is used by the 1511arrival/1612 departure to Kings Lynn.

It's probably possible to shunt out and back again during a 90 minute layover, as long as Lumo can provide a driver. The use of platforms 9 and 10 less easy to avoid.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I think it's in some ways the effect of them not having set the CR flag when LNER, the majority operator, has set it. The Lumo Only Anytime Day Single is not substantially cheaper than the LNER Super Off Peak Single (and it's only those that can be sold unreserved), so it's not about cheap fares, it's about LNER being "sold out" when full and this short train not. I've noticed a similar effect on the WCML where Avanti have done the same thing, which I'm sure WMT are decidedly unbothered about as they have a lot of capacity at the moment with many of the commuters absent.

It highlights to me that policies on compulsory, half-compulsory or non-compulsory reservations on the main IC TOCs can't really be decided by TOC and there really needs to be a consensus.

Not related to east and west coast mainlines, but I noticed a similar effect around Bristol and Bath over COVID where GWR's services (both intercity and local) were CR flagged and the SWR Waterloo services weren't. So what it led to was a tonne of people trying to get on the small 3 coach 159 instead of the 10 coach IET that was leaving about the same time. It really needs a joined up effort to get this right but I am somewhat skeptical that will ever happen when two ToC's owned by the same parent company can't sort it out between themselves!

 

[tornado]

One of the videos available as part of LUMOs onboard offering. Just thought I'd post this for the comments Quite far from traditional BR days now!

 

[Acfb]

Geoff Marshall's video is now up:

 

[TheBigD]

Geoff Marshall's video is now up:

I've watched a fair few of the Lumo review videos and in most of them there is luggage in the doorways and the bike racks crammed full of luggage. For those on here who have travelled with Lumo is the lack of luggage space a big a problem as it appears on the YouTube videos?

Using the bike racks for luggage isn't an issue unless there are bikes booked, but then there are bikes the doorways will probably end up being blocked with luggage.

(Geoff does specifically mention the luggage issue in his video)

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've watched a fair few of the Lumo review videos and in most of them there is luggage in the doorways and the bike racks crammed full of luggage. For those on here who have travelled with Lumo is the lack of luggage space a big a problem as it appears on the YouTube videos?

Using the bike racks for luggage isn't an issue unless there are bikes booked, but then there are bikes the doorways will probably end up being blocked with luggage.

As someone who hasn't travelled on Lumo or any competing service, just based on the pictures and videos from the last week or two it very much looks like the same issue Cross Country have with luggage! I.e. not enough luggage space compared to the number of people who travel with luggage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who hasn't travelled on Lumo or any competing service, just based on the pictures and videos from the last week or two it very much looks like the same issue Cross Country have with luggage! I.e. not enough luggage space compared to the number of people who travel with luggage.

80x are much better than XC because the overheads are huge, though. The pictures looked to me like most people had airline sized carry-ons, which easily fit in 80x overheads and many had done. So would the fix be for staff or other passengers to assist those who couldn't put them up to do so?

I do agree that the "no window" narrow seats at the end should all be replaced with luggage stacks on all 80x, that said. But it appears there is an issue here in that that would take their seating capacity below the minimum 400 required as a condition of their access agreement. Any scope for unreservable tip-ups somewhere to tick the box, perhaps?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Any scope for unreservable tip-ups somewhere to tick the box, perhaps?

Yes, the place taken-up currently by the "narrow no-window" seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the place taken-up currently by the "narrow no-window" seats.

I suppose you could put one tip-up there and have people pile bags on it. But that would still leave 4 seats per coach to fit in?

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, the place taken-up currently by the "narrow no-window" seats.

Would be tough to fit a proper a luggage rack in that space then though!

 

[03_179]

Weather and family permitting I am hoping to do a Lumo next week.

What are the best seats (prefer the left hand side of the train facing direction of travel) for windows to book ?

 

[Grumpy Git]

Sounds like the "400 seats" is just a box ticking exercise in itself. Its not as if there is much difference between 400 and 390.

 

[hexagon789]

Sounds like the "400 seats" is just a box ticking exercise in itself. Its not as if there is much difference between 400 and 390.

Strictly speaking, you only reach the oft-bandied about 400 seat figure if you count the tip-up seats. If not the figure is then 396. Removing the same seats LNER have in the 9-car Azumas, would reduce that further to 380, which is still quite reasonable IMO.

 

[357]

Does Lumo not have luggage restrictions on its tickets, restricting people to an airline size carryon unless they pay extra? Or am I mistaken?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

For luggage, Lumo appear to be promoting a white-labelled road courier service: https://www.lumo.co.uk/onboard/lumoluggage

 

[HowardGWR]

For luggage, Lumo appear to be promoting a white-labelled road courier service: https://www.lumo.co.uk/onboard/lumoluggage

It doesnt state it's by road (at least totally). Poor do if so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesnt state it's by road (at least totally). Poor do if so.

It's a third party so it will be.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It's a white label around FirstLuggage (no relation) who appear to use DHL, possibly others too. If it's not by road it'll be by air... (but almost certainly won't be)

 

[Starmill]

For luggage, Lumo appear to be promoting a white-labelled road courier service: https://www.lumo.co.uk/onboard/lumoluggage

Indeed - provided by http://www.firstluggage.com, who use FedEx and probably other road-based couriers.

Virgin Trains used to offer something very similar called Bag Magic. It was abandoned, probably because it was expensive and wasn't well used.

Edit: whops, cross-posted!

 

[TheBigD]

Strictly speaking, you only reach the oft-bandied about 406 seat figure if you count the tip-up seats. If not the figure is then 398. Removing the same seats LNER have in the 9-car Azumas, would reduce that further to 374, which is still quite reasonable IMO.

Seating capacity is as follows...

Coach A - 52 seats, 2 wheelchair spaces, 2 tip up seats, 1 toilet
Coach B - 94 seats, 1 toilet
Coach C - 94 seats
Coach D - 94 seats, 1 toilet
Coach E - 60 seats, 2 tip up seats, 1 toilet

394 seats
4 tip up seats
2 wheelchair spaces
4 toilets

Coaches B, C, and D have a single luggage rack at one end.
Coaches B and D have a bike rack/luggage area opposite the toilet

 

[hexagon789]

Seating capacity is as follows...

Coach A - 52 seats, 2 wheelchair spaces, 2 tip up seats, 1 toilet
Coach B - 94 seats, 1 toilet
Coach C - 94 seats
Coach D - 94 seats, 1 toilet
Coach E - 60 seats, 2 tip up seats, 1 toilet

394 seats
4 tip up seats
2 wheelchair spaces
4 toilets

Coaches B, C, and D have a single luggage rack at one end.
Coaches B and D have a bike rack/luggage area opposite the toilet

Okay, I don't know where I got the 406 from apologies, that should've been 400 (the figure they quote on their website).

But on triple checking figures this time:

A - 56 including 2 tip-up. 2 wheelchairs
B through D - 94
E - 60 or 62 in total adding the additional 2 tip-up.

That's 400 in total.

That's from their own seating plan.