Luton Travelcard time restriction

Status
Not open for further replies.

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
7,708
Location
Rail replacement bus cab
What is the time restriction on an Off Peak One Day Travelcard from Luton if I board the train at Leicester on a weekday morning? The train first stops at St Pancras International and I'd be using it in conjunction with one season ticket and another Day Single ticket which cover the distance from Leicester to Luton.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The ODT is restriction code LS, valid on the 0914 and all later trains except the 0919 EMT service, there are also return restrictions.

I would therefore say that any train stopping at or passing Luton at or after 0914, with the exception of the 0919 is valid.
 

barrykas

Established Member
Joined
19 Sep 2006
Messages
1,579
I'd concur with that, which makes the first valid train 1B21 (0704 Lincoln Central to St Pancras), which is due off Leicester at 0833 and into St Pancras at 1000.
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
It's valid at any time in such a combination, since the restriction does not relate to Leicester station, and there is no restriction on arrival time at London Terminals.

There are 'via' restrictions, e.g., restriction J1

"By any train except those
timed to arrive or pass
through Cardiff Ctl/Queen St
before 0929."

This restriction is not of that kind.

The stated timings relate to specific trains. For instance, the slow FCC 09:10 is permitted, but the 09:18 is not.

Therefore a train not calling at any of these stations, is by, necessary omission, permitted.

Expect trouble, of course, in using such a combination.
 

tony_mac

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2009
Messages
3,623
Location
Liverpool
It's valid at any time in such a combination, since the restriction does not relate to Leicester station, and there is no restriction on arrival time at London Terminals.
That's a VERY specific interpretation of the wording, and not one that I think is easy to justify.
Valid on the train shown and all later services

Therefore a train not calling at any of these stations, is by, necessary omission, permitted.
I think it would actually make more sense to argue that a train not calling at any of those stations is not permitted - as you are not travelling 'later than' the permitted time.

I think most people would use a little more common-sense in their interpretation of the wording.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
11,962
Location
0036
What is the time restriction on an Off Peak One Day Travelcard from Luton if I board the train at Leicester on a weekday morning? The train first stops at St Pancras International and I'd be using it in conjunction with one season ticket and another Day Single ticket which cover the distance from Leicester to Luton.

It doesn't matter. You'll get a PF because EMT doesn't accept Travelcards :D
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The actual wording of the restriction is "Valid on the train shown and all later trains" followed by a list of stations, which includes Luton but not Leicester, and the train time from which the ticket is valid, with a footnote for Luton that it is not valid on the 0919.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/ODT_LS.pdf

There is no way, imo, that this can be twisted to allow earlier trains, by omission or not.
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
The actual wording of the restriction is "Valid on the train shown and all later trains" followed by a list of stations, which includes Luton but not Leicester, and the train time from which the ticket is valid, with a footnote for Luton that it is not valid on the 0919.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/ODT_LS.pdf

There is no way, imo, that this can be twisted to allow earlier trains, by omission or not.

Leicester isn't mentioned, so it isn't restricted.

Nor is Bletchley, from where you could board holding a Bedford ODT on a train ex Northampton.

However I have just spotted:

"St Pancras International 0930"

Which probably restricts to the 08:18 from Leicester, which terminates at St Pancras at 09:29.

It wouldn't however apply to the 08:25 from Leicester, arriving 09:34.

FCC have listed all stations between Bedford and London Bridge on their line, which is rational from their perspective. IMO the St Pancras text probably catches fast EMT services arriving before 09:30.

I guess they don't mention stations into Euston because it's not their services and they don't care....

But yeah:

'Valid on services arriving at St Pancras at or later than 09:30' applies in effect on EMT trains.
 

tony_mac

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2009
Messages
3,623
Location
Liverpool
Leicester isn't mentioned, so it isn't restricted.
Or, equally, it isn't allowed.
The restriction only provides the times of the trains that are valid. I think it's left to the reader to assume that if it isn't listed as valid, then it isn't - otherwise you could just assume that everything is valid.
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
Or, equally, it isn't allowed.
The restriction only provides the times of the trains that are valid. I think it's left to the reader to assume that if it isn't listed as valid, then it isn't - otherwise you could just assume that everything is valid.

That doesn't make sense, because the ticket is routed 'ANY PERMITTED', and is therefore valid via Bletchley (from Bedford), from where there are no restrictions.

It's illogical to argue that stations not listed are not valid, since clearly they are, otherwise the ticket would be routed 'Via Kentish Town' or 'FCC Only' or similar.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Leicester isn't mentioned, so it isn't restricted....

The counter argument is that Leicester isn't mentioned so it is not allowed.

If the restriction was worded "Not valid on trains timed to depart [station X] before ....", or similar, then I might agree that a passing train could be considered valid as it would not depart that station, but that is not the wording.
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
The counter argument is that Leicester isn't mentioned so it is not allowed.

If the restriction was worded "Not valid on trains timed to depart [station X] before ....", or similar, then I might agree that a passing train could be considered valid as it would not depart that station, but that is not the wording.

It says 'Valid on the train shown'.

I.e. it's a list of trains, by departure time from each station en route.(The 08:54 from Bedford is barred from Bedford, Flitwick, Harlington and Leagrave, but permitted from Luton, Luton Airport, Harpenden and St Albans for example)

These are actual departing trains from those actual specific trains, not passing trains, and not from different stations.

The booking engines confirm this interpretation. For the journey Stewartby - Shepherds Bush on the 06:49 (ex Bedford) to Bletchley, then Southern to Shepherd's Bush, returning the same day:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SWR/SPB/200513/0645/dep/200513/1545/dep

the ✠Any Permitted CDR Restriction LS (i.e. the same restriction as rj's ticket here) is offered.

That's because restriction LS does not apply except to trains calling at the listed stations, and the slightly cheaper 'Via Bletchley' CDR isn't valid because it is restricted 'By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 0950.', so you can use a CDR during the peak for this journey, because restrictions don't apply via Bletchley.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
....The booking engines confirm this interpretation. For the journey Stewartby - Shepherds Bush on the 06:49 (ex Bedford) to Bletchley, then Southern to Shepherd's Bush, returning the same day:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/SWR/SPB/200513/0645/dep/200513/1545/dep

That's because restriction LS does not apply except to trains calling at the listed stations....

Perhaps the ticket with an origin of Stewartby is listed as valid because it does not have an origin of Bedford and the journey does not go via Bedford?

The restriction says "valid on the train shown and all later trains."

Where does it say they have to call?

Would you be willing to argue that a Bedford-London zones 1-6 ticket is valid on the 0854 from Bedford because it leaves Luton after 0914 (and is not the 0919)?
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
Perhaps the ticket with an origin of Stewartby is listed as valid because it does not have an origin of Bedford and the journey does not go via Bedford?

The restriction says "valid on the train shown and all later trains."

Where does it say they have to call?

The restriction is clearly based on the departure time from a train calling at station, not the time is passes by, firstly because all the times are calling times of actual trains, and secondly because the restriction otherwise doesn't work - you wouldn't board the 09:18 from Luton, given that it passes Mill Hill Broadway at 09:40, 3 minutes 'too early'.

Would you be willing to argue that a Bedford-London zones 1-6 ticket is valid on the 0854 from Bedford because it leaves Luton after 0914 (and is not the 0919)?

I haven't argued anything along those lines. It would be valid boarding at Luton though.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
The restriction is clearly based on the departure time from a train calling at station, not the time is passes by, firstly because all the times are calling times of actual trains, and secondly because the restriction otherwise doesn't work - you wouldn't board the 09:18 from Luton, given that it passes Mill Hill Broadway at 09:40, 3 minutes 'too early'....

The first valid train is clearly the time a train is timed to depart (atleast when the restriction was set), that's only to be expected (we can't have people leaping at fast moving trains can we?), but it says "....and all later trains".

The restriction tells us what train the passenger can use ("Valid on...." rather than "Not valid on...."). If passing trains are a "later train", then RJ's passing train could not pass Luton until 0914 on a weekday. If passing trains are not a "later train", then RJ could only use passing trains at the weekend.
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
The first valid train is clearly the time a train is timed to depart (atleast when the restriction was set), that's only to be expected (we can't have people leaping at fast moving trains can we?), but it says "....and all later trains".

The restriction tells us what train the passenger can use ("Valid on...." rather than "Not valid on...."). If passing trains are a "later train", then RJ's passing train could not pass Luton until 0914 on a weekday. If passing trains are not a "later train", then RJ could only use passing trains at the weekend.

NRE (above re. Shepherds Bush) shows that anything which isn't prohibited is permitted.

Thus you can travel via Bletchley at any time on these tickets.

You can also travel via St Albans Abbey at any time:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi.../0530/dep/200513/1330/dep?via=How_Wood_(Herts)

The 06:18 from St Albans Abbey to Watford Junction is permitted, for example, on a CDR/ODT St Albans - London

So there is really no way to countenance the argument that direct trains from Leicester are not valid at all, and again, as I said the argument that you should check the 'passing time' also fails as per the Mill Hill Broadway argument.

So the restriction from Leicester is in effect 'trains arriving at St Pancras at or after 09:30'. Which is a perfectly standard restriction on an off-peak ticket IME.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
....as I said the argument that you should check the 'passing time' also fails as per the Mill Hill Broadway argument....

I am not concerned with the passing time at Mill Hill Broadway because the ticket is from Luton, the time restriction at Luton is 0914 or later.
 

PermitToTravel

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2011
Messages
3,044
Location
Groningen
The restriction starts with "Valid on the train shown and
all later services". Could it be argued that all trains are later than the time shown from Leicester - none? :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In seriousness I think that the ticket is valid on no trains except for those that the restriction text explicitly permits the use of. Therefore, as the 0918 from Luton is permitted by per "all later services", its calling time at Mill Hill Broadway is irrelevant. Furthermore, I would argue that were this train to call at MIL at 0940, rather than passing, boarding it with an LS-restricted ticket would be acceptable, as its use has been permitted by virtue of its calling time at Luton
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would you be willing to argue that a Bedford-London zones 1-6 ticket is valid on the 0854 from Bedford because it leaves Luton after 0914 (and is not the 0919)?

Yes, I think that this is true
 
Last edited:

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
7,708
Location
Rail replacement bus cab
All, thanks for your opinions once again.

Having read through the responses, I hold the view that the restriction text should be interpreted by what's there, rather than what isn't. If the decision is made that it's better to append a restriction on departures from individual stations than to impose a blanket restriction on arrivals into London for example, it should then follow than any stations omitted are free from restriction. Unless it's explicitly given that there is a restriction, there isn't one.

If I use a Kettering to Luton Season in conjunction with an Off Peak Luton Travelcard on a non stop train to London, I expect it should be valid by any train.
 
Last edited:

Ralph Ayres

Member
Joined
2 May 2012
Messages
106
You do seem to be in danger of reading what you want into the restrictions, rather than what is intended. I can't see how the validity could be before the Kettering start time or the Luton start time, whichever is earlier, and no time restriction at all is just plain nonsense for a ticket that is not valid anywhere inside the Travelcard area before 09:30.
 

LexyBoy

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
4,472
Location
North of the rivers
I can't see how the validity could be before the Kettering start time or the Luton start time...
A ticket's restriction text is just that: it restricts the validity according to the arrival/departure times within it.

In this case the restriction applies to trains leaving the listed stations at the times given. Since a service fast from Leicester doesn't call at any of those stations, it is entirely reasonable to interpret that none of those restrictions apply. In the absence of any restrictions, a ticket is valid on any service. (If it were me, I would play safe and get a train scheduled to pass those stations after the times listed).
...no time restriction at all is just plain nonsense for a ticket that is not valid anywhere inside the Travelcard area before 09:30.
Exactly how Travelcard validity is determined is not in the public domain AFAIK. Journey planners will happily allow an Off Peak Travelcard, Route: Southern Only to be used on the 0913 from Epsom which calls Sutton (zone 5) at 0923, as this train arrives London Terminals at a time allowed by the ticket's restriction (C0).
 

tony_mac

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2009
Messages
3,623
Location
Liverpool
. Since a service fast from Leicester doesn't call at any of those stations, it is entirely reasonable to interpret that none of those restrictions apply.
That's one opinion.

It's my opinion that it is entirely unreasonable to interpret that a train passing through, but not stopping, at one of those stations is entirely unrestricted.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
...In this case the restriction applies to trains leaving the listed stations at the times given. Since a service fast from Leicester doesn't call at any of those stations, it is entirely reasonable to interpret that none of those restrictions apply.....

Thus the ticket is not valid as the train does not leave any of those station at or after the times given.
 

RJ

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2005
Messages
7,708
Location
Rail replacement bus cab
Thus the ticket is not valid as the train does not leave any of those station at or after the times given.

I'm not so sure about that. Until soon after I started exploiting the loophole, tickets from Hertford East bearing the 5M restriction code (Cross London NSE area Off Peak) were showing in the journey planners as valid by any train from Hertford East. The station was not listed in the list of stations from which the restriction was applied to. The loophole was closed by adding it to the list of stations and amending the coding to reflect this.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Journey planners are only as good as the programming.

The restriction code says what trains are valid, rather than what trains are not, so arguments along the lines of "it doesn't say you can't" are flawed.
 

LexyBoy

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
4,472
Location
North of the rivers
Thus the ticket is not valid as the train does not leave any of those station at or after the times given.

An equally absurd interpretation.

I would say that neither extreme interpretation is reasonable. There are alternatives which are more reasonable (e.g. trains timed to pass after those times, or trains departing Leicester later than one which stops at Bedford at a permitted time), but none of them is definitive IMO. Personally I wouldn’t try to argue that it’s valid on any train, but then I don’t make a point of using loopholes and ambiguities to travel at the lowest price possible.

Also I would say that if you're calling it a "restriction" then it should tell you which trains are not valid. But of course ATOC have a rather different take on the English language...
 
Last edited:

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
An equally absurd interpretation....

I was only pointing out the logical outcome of the suggestion.

....trains timed to pass after those times,....

The restriction code says the train listed and all later trains, it has no mention of actually stopping, so this, IMO, is what is allowed. The ticket is from Luton so the Luton time applies.

....Also I would say that if you're calling it a "restriction" then it should tell you which trains are not valid. But of course ATOC have a rather different take on the English language...

A restriction reduces the number of trains you can use, in what way does this restriction not reduce the number of trains that can be used?
 

soil

Established Member
Joined
28 May 2012
Messages
1,951
Thus the ticket is not valid as the train does not leave any of those station at or after the times given.

This is clearly not a valid interpretation, because the restriction is used on journeys via Bletchley that do not pass through any of the named stations.

Therefore the only reasonable interpretation (and the one used by booking engines) is that which isn't explicitly prohibited is permitted, so to speak.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
This is clearly not a valid interpretation, because the restriction is used on journeys via Bletchley that do not pass through any of the named stations....

You mean from Bedford St. Johns? Would it not be reasonable to use Bedford?

....Therefore the only reasonable interpretation (and the one used by booking engines) is that which isn't explicitly prohibited is permitted, so to speak.

So basically you are saying that, as nothing is explicitly prohibited by restriction code LS, that all trains are valid?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top