Machine failed to print ticket

[maniacmartin]

If anyone is in a position to post a copy of this bulletin here, I would be interested in reading it

 

[185]

If anyone is in a position to post a copy of this bulletin here, I would be interested in reading it

It was well over a year ago... I'd happily post it online, but things get traced back to people, sadly in this blame culture railway.

Needless to say, I've used this very procedure pretty much every day for the last two years when on early shifts, plus it's mentioned in the training session for new staff. Passengers using the station help points are routinely told to bang the flap by retail assistants.

 

[Master29]

Just out of curiosity the OP doesn`t mention where, when, or even if he was challenged. As he didn`t have the outbound ticket I can only assume this may have been at Southampton but he doesn`t mention or offer any paperwork stating him being caught with no ticket. It just seems he went straight to small claims, or am I the one being naive here?

 

[AlterEgo]

Just out of curiosity the OP doesn`t mention where, when, or even if he was challenged. As he didn`t have the outbound ticket I can only assume this may have been at Southampton but he doesn`t mention or offer any paperwork stating him being caught with no ticket. It just seems he went straight to small claims, or am I the one being naive here?

It seems so, unless the OP can clarify.

Small claims courts will not look favourably on claimants who haven't exhausted alternative resolution avenues, which in this case would mean approaching Transport Focus.

Unfortunately for the OP he has had a costly experience as a result. I assume he didn't expect SWT to defend the claim. TOCs do not usually defend small claims like this one, so there is likely to be an extra dimension to the case to have made SWT dig their heels in here.

I fear the OP is being given false hope; a small claims court only has to decide things on the balance of probabilities. Clearly the OP is deeply invested in this case emotionally (judging by his letter).

 

[DaleCooper]

Just out of curiosity the OP doesn`t mention where, when, or even if he was challenged. As he didn`t have the outbound ticket I can only assume this may have been at Southampton but he doesn`t mention or offer any paperwork stating him being caught with no ticket. It just seems he went straight to small claims, or am I the one being naive here?

As I read his first post he bought another outbound ticket the cost of which was the subject of the claim.

I have just lost a small claims court case against South West Trains; I'm speechless. The ticket machine at Waterloo failed to print the outbound ticket to Southampton on December 5th 2015 but did print the return. Ticket office refused to provide a replacement on the day so the only way I could travel was to buy another outbound single for almost the price paid online for the return. The judge however accepted SWTs spreadsheet of transactions which purported to show no machine error. So officially now I'm an attempted fraudster at worse, or I just lost the ticket at best. Considering appealing but would like to know of similar experiences of such machine failure.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .

I fear the OP is being given false hope; a small claims court only has to decide things on the balance of probabilities. Clearly the OP is deeply invested in this case emotionally (judging by his letter).

I'm reminded of another case just this week, heard by Mr Justice Irwin, where an aggrieved party had pursued a claim over a debt using the Small Claims Court procedure, and lost. They were so incensed at having lost, feeling, like davowolf, that there were challenges that they'd wanted to make at the hearing but hadn't, and that the other party had lied at the hearing, and that they wanted to pursue it further. They took their issue to the Queens Bench Division of the High Court with an application for Committal (a prison sentence) as a sentence incurred by a Contempt of Court (lying in front of the Small Claims Judge).

After less than an hour, they were sent away a few thousand pounds worse off.

I can't imagine who advised them to pursue that matter further like that - their Counsel seemed quite content to charge them fees for the appearance.

Small claims courts will not look favourably on claimants who haven't exhausted alternative resolution avenues, . . . .

I've mentioned this already on this thread, but it is a point worth emphasising. And repeating.

 

[davowolf]

Before small claims contact with CS at SWT:
Dear Sirs
This is a claim for the refund of £39.40 from South West Trains; this was the fare paid, absolutely unnecessarily, for a single journey from London Waterloo to Southampton Central. I had already paid for the outbound and return journey on-line (£43.40), the details of which are in the e-mail attached / enclosed booking confirmation from South West Trains. Please also find attached / enclosed photocopies of all tickets obtained from the Waterloo station machine including the additional unnecessary single outbound ticket and its receipt for £39.40, obtained separately from the Waterloo ticket office.

On arrival at Waterloo soon after 12.30h on Saturday 5th December, the ticket machine failed to print the outbound ticket; only the return ticket was printed together with two non-valid ticket receipts. I explained this to the Waterloo ticket office official [name redacted], but he refused to provide me with a duplicate outbound ticket, suggesting that I might have dropped the ticket and implied otherwise that I was trying to fraudulently obtain a second ‘free’ outbound ticket. This, despite him admitting that this occurrence was frequent and that many passengers did have this issue with obtaining their paid-for tickets from the station machines. The only option nevertheless offered by him was to purchase another second separate single ticket for £39.40 if I was to travel that day. I was outraged to be presumed guilty of fraud when the truth was clearly a mechanical failure of the ticket machine.

[name redacted], his colleague ticket office official went himself to the said machine and confirmed that no ticket was present but insisted that their ‘computer’ was telling them it had. There is clearly a system error here for which honest, credible passengers like me are paying the price not only financially but also of a false accusation of fraud.

Unless I am re-imbursed £39.40 by Monday 21st December I shall issue on that date a formal claim for this amount through the on-line small claims court (https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome). Expenses will be added to my claim at that point. Should South West Trains insist on taking this matter to court for a judgement, I will inform the court with evidence, of my honesty and credibility as a witness. I am a 66 year-old retired university lecturer and scientific advisor for the pharmaceutical industry, married for 40 years and with two grown up professional children. I will submit to the court that I am not the sort of person who would or has at any time ever in his life, tried to pull a ridiculous fraudulent stunt like this; I have a completely impeccable record of honesty – it’s who I am and not surprisingly therefore feel insulted by being treated as a criminal at the outset of this process.

Those making the decision about this may be interested in the purpose of my journey to Southampton, in order to reinforce my credibility. I am a member of the FA Cup choir which sang ‘Abide with Me’ at the FA cup final at Wembley in May 2015. We were subsequently invited to sing at the turning on of the Christmas lights in Totton, near Southampton, at essentially a Christian ceremony at which our choir represented all that is unifying in peoples of disparate persuasions; a message for us all and not confined to football. I mention this just so that South West Trains know who it is they are accusing of fraud.

I look forward to the reimbursement of the credit card used (Mastercard : **** **** **** 7226). If you need any further information to assist with this please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Please be aware that I am retaining the original tickets and receipt, for production at any small claims court as evidence to present to the judge.

SWT response:
Regarding the customer service experience you had at London Waterloo, I am very concerned about the difficulties you describe. The situation as you describe it is not the attitude or service level we would expect our staff members to provide. Even if it is not possible to fulfil a customer’s request we expect all transactions to be dealt with in a pleasant and courteous manner.

Please be assured that your description of events was forwarded to the manager responsible for the Ticket Office staff members at London Waterloo Station and while we cannot advise you of action taken against staff members I would like to assure you we take all feedback such as yours seriously and deal with such reports appropriately.
I have passed on your details to the Ticketing Control Unit who are responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of the ticket machines. They have advised there were no faults with the machine during your transaction and have confirmed that our records show all your tickets printed correctly.

Therefore I am afraid that as our records show all your tickets were printed correctly, it is with regret I must I advise you that there is no refund available to you on this occasion.

Please accept my renewed apologies and I am sorry if this is not the outcome you were hoping for.
Thank you again for contacting South West Trains.

Kind regards,

[name redacted]
Customer Service Centre Advisor

My small claims summary:
In order to complete my journey to
Southampton from Waterloo on December 5th
2015, I was required by the ticket office
official [name redacted], to pay £39.40 for an
additional single outbound ticket for which I
am claiming. The ticket machine at Waterloo
failed to print my previously on-line
purchased outbound ticket; the return ticket
was correctly printed. This machine failure
was confirmed at the time by a second ticket
office official [name redacted].
Nevertheless [name redacted] refused to believe me
and refused to provide an outbound ticket,
requiring me to purchase a second single
outbound ticket before I could travel.
The claimant claims interest under section 69
of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of
8% a year from 05/12/2015 to 20/12/2015 on
£39.40 and also interest at the same rate
up to the date of judgment or earlier payment
at a daily rate of £0.80.

 

[davowolf]

To 185: This Bulletin could be absolutely crucial to my case because it demonstrates that these machines are not invulnerable. It must be public information surely and not internally confidential. If you want to PM me a copy of this I'd be happy to provide my personal contact details; email or postal address, to enable this if you are willing to help me in this way.

 

[anme]

Actual instructions given 18 months ago were for customers to "bang the plastic flap hard a few times" (S&B bulletin) (!) as the moisture build up in the machines was regularly preventing printed tickets dropping on cold nights / warm mornings. It actually worked.

A few years ago I actually saw this behaviour, although I don't know what type of machine it was. I bought a return ticket - the return portion and the receipt dropped into the tray, but the outward portion didn't. I reached into the machine and felt for the chute to the printer. By inserting my fingers into the chute I was able to dislodge my outward ticket, and a few other receipts too. I think there was also another ticket, but it's too long ago for me to be sure.

I don't know how common this is and whether it could apply to the OP's case, but I was reminded of it when I saw this thread.

Nevertheless, even if this is what happened I can't see any way for the OP to prove it at this stage, so I would echo the advice above and even though it must feel unfair, I recommend to keep it in perspective and move on with other things in life.

 

[Chew Chew]

I'm open mouthed after reading the letter that the OP sent to SWT.

Everything apart from the first 2 paragraphs was absolutely pointless.

I cannot believe that he thought that there was value to be added by including all the extras.

 

[davowolf]

TOCs do not usually defend small claims like this one, so there is likely to be an extra dimension to the case to have made SWT dig their heels in here.

The only other 'dimension' I (OP) can think of is my threat to use the small claims court if they failed to reimburse my single ticket voluntarily. So someone at SWT was feeing vindictive on that day perhaps ?

 

[Clip]

The only other 'dimension' I (OP) can think of is my threat to use the small claims court if they failed to reimburse my single ticket voluntarily. So someone at SWT was feeing vindictive on that day perhaps ?

No no no no no. They dont knwo you so why would they be vindictive? You seemed to have gone running off to the small claims court thinking they wouldnt defend before you exhausted every avenue wiht them so no they are obviously are going to defend themselves if thats how you approach things and the machine data tells them another.

Honestly, the best advice, which others have repeated here, is to move on and chalk it up to a loss this time. Youll only spend more time and money and worry on this which you cant seem to grasp that you wont(or extremely unlikely) win

 

[AlterEgo]

The only other 'dimension' I (OP) can think of is my threat to use the small claims court if they failed to reimburse my single ticket voluntarily. So someone at SWT was feeing vindictive on that day perhaps ?

I don't like SWT or their corporate approach. But, to be fair, you're the one that took them to court. I don't think SWT mounting a defence is "vindictive".

You entirely circumvented the out-of-court escalation process, which is to go to Transport Focus.

I am reasonably confident Transport Focus (for all their many faults) would have liaised with the TOC and for you to be refunded the cost of the additional ticket, even if it were just in vouchers.

As a former complaints handler myself, my advice is always to keep complaint letters brief and dispassionate. At most TOCs (and probably most private companies in general), the individual complaints handler:

a) has no legal training
b) has a surprising amount of discretion, and
c) doesn't want to spend ages reading your case.

Tone and brevity are crucial.

Don't ever mention legal action in an opening complaint letter. It's unnecessary and combative. Ideally, you should give the reader the impression that you, the claimant, are reasonable and that you believe the handler to be reasonable too. Be constructive and don't let it come across that there's a loss of goodwill (even if there is, and even if you HATE THE BUGGERS! ). Try to make the reader want to help you.

If I am being honest, the follow up letter where you mention being accused of fraud (inaccurate and a little hysterical - no such thing happened), being a retired lecturer, singing Christian songs at Wembley and Totton, is a turn-off and doesn't help your case.

I understand that in an ideal world you shouldn't have to "make the agent want to help you", but it is the reality. Don't make your letter become water-cooler chat.

Had you stuck to the facts and left out the threat of small claims, as a handler I would have thought "I can't prove this either way, but you know what, he seems nice - I can probably justify giving him vouchers and a cordially-worded letter, hopefully he will be happy".

Unfortunately, as this has already gone to court, you can't now go to Transport Focus.

 

[NotDeadYet]

I fear most of us place too much faith in modern technology and I imagine county court judges are no exception. During my career in banking IT I observed the culture gradually change from one where accuracy was paramount to one where minor discrepancies and anomalies were frequently ignored and with the growing complexity of systems and pressures on IT budgets I am sure that matters have not improved.

Only last week I was let down by Ikea's 'swipe a surprise' machine (scan your receipt and get issued with a prize coupon). I won a hot dog but the coupon did not print. I was not alone but I was the only one who bothered to go across to Customer Services. They checked the system which showed that the coupon had been issued - no need to go to court though - they gave me a hot dog!

There are a lot of questions one might ask about the SWT report/spreadsheet.
Was it a native report from the machine or an SWT in-house report interpreting raw data from the machine and with corresponding greater scope for errors? What was the report actually showing? As talldave says, proof that the ticket printed is not proof that it dispensed. Furthermore proof that the printing mechanism actuated may not be proof that anything printed. What training has been provided in understanding and interpreting the reports? Are statistics kept about non-dispense complaints and how many of these contradict the report?

I can believe that the SWT custodians of the spreadsheet may have little understanding of how it is generated and might assert, in good faith, that it is a definitive report of what tickets were dispensed when it is nothing of the sort.

The advice here seems to be not to return to the courts but maybe other avenues are worth a try such as the local MP or perhaps a letter to a local paper asking if there are any other victims who would be prepared to come forward.

 

[Clip]

and in regards to the above 2 posts just how long do you think it would be before people cottoned on that a mistake may happen and thus you get 2 people travelling for the price of one?

 

[Flamingo]

I don't like SWT or their corporate approach. But, to be fair, you're the one that took them to court. I don't think SWT mounting a defence is "vindictive".

You entirely circumvented the out-of-court escalation process, which is to go to Transport Focus.

I am reasonably confident Transport Focus (for all their many faults) would have liaised with the TOC and for you to be refunded the cost of the additional ticket, even if it were just in vouchers.

As a former complaints handler myself, my advice is always to keep complaint letters brief and dispassionate. At most TOCs (and probably most private companies in general), the individual complaints handler:

a) has no legal training
b) has a surprising amount of discretion, and
c) doesn't want to spend ages reading your case.

Tone and brevity are crucial.

Don't ever mention legal action in an opening complaint letter. It's unnecessary and combative. Ideally, you should give the reader the impression that you, the claimant, are reasonable and that you believe the handler to be reasonable too. Be constructive and don't let it come across that there's a loss of goodwill (even if there is, and even if you HATE THE BUGGERS! ). Try to make the reader want to help you.

If I am being honest, the follow up letter where you mention being accused of fraud (inaccurate and a little hysterical - no such thing happened), being a retired lecturer, singing Christian songs at Wembley and Totton, is a turn-off and doesn't help your case.

I understand that in an ideal world you shouldn't have to "make the agent want to help you", but it is the reality. Don't make your letter become water-cooler chat.

Had you stuck to the facts and left out the threat of small claims, as a handler I would have thought "I can't prove this either way, but you know what, he seems nice - I can probably justify giving him vouchers and a cordially-worded letter, hopefully he will be happy".

Unfortunately, as this has already gone to court, you can't now go to Transport Focus.

Could this post on how to write a letter (or a generic version) be made a sticky on this forum? It is one of the most useful posts yet.

Have a like

 

[SickyNicky]

Could this post on how to write a letter (or a generic version) be made a sticky on this forum? It is one of the most useful posts yet.

Have a like

Indeed. That's the way I approach these things and they always seem to get resolved fairly easily.

AlterEgo is giving excellent advice, in my opinion. Forum members would do well to follow it in their initial complaint letter.

 

[crehld]

Could this post on how to write a letter (or a generic version) be made a sticky on this forum? It is one of the most useful posts yet.

Have a like

Quite. Writing an effective letter is a skill that many seem to struggle with. Conciseness and and a professional, business-like tone are crucial.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree.

One of the fundamental points to adopt before making a response is to put aside all sense of anger or challenge, and to focus on reaching an outcome which will be an outcome which is appropriate for the other party to be seeking.

A second fundamental point is to keep the subject matter within the scope of the person it is adressed to (complaints about trains, staff, prices, delays, other people, policy, the government, etc. are not within the remit of the correspondant to resolve there and then. Suggestions about Managing Directors, Dft policy, station layouts, ticket barriers, leaflets, toilets, etc.) are even more likely to be beyond the scope of the person dealing with it, but who does otherwise HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO REACH A RESOLUTION.

The third fundamental point is to focus on a resolution - a resolution which is realistic for both parties. This is emphatically NOT a focus on 'winning'. It is a charp focus on a mutual agreement and a finality. Do you agree, AlterEgo ?

Perhaps we can arrange for this, or a similar piece of advice, to be incorporated into the RailUK's Fares & Ticketing Guide's Section 10 on Disputes.

 

[AlterEgo]

The third fundamental point is to focus on a resolution - a resolution which is realistic for both parties. This is emphatically NOT a focus on 'winning'. It is a charp focus on a mutual agreement and a finality. Do you agree, AlterEgo ?

Perhaps we can arrange for this, or a similar piece of advice, to be incorporated into the RailUK's Fares & Ticketing Guide's Section 10 on Disputes.

Agreed, the focus should always be on a constructive resolution.

I'm happy to write something for a forum sticky. If the moderating team would like that, I'm only a PM away.

 

[jumble]

My take on this having had quite a few success stories including compo of £100 just yesterday for a bodged service call.

Use the words from "How to win friends and influence people " from the 30s

Dear SWT
Unfortunately the machine did not give me my ticket
I would appreciate it very much if it were possible for you to send me some rail vouchers to cover the cost of the extra ticket.

Kind Regards

Jumble

 

[rs101]

and in regards to the above 2 posts just how long do you think it would be before people cottoned on that a mistake may happen and thus you get 2 people travelling for the price of one?

Then SWT need to modify their procedures.

The current system doesn't adequately prove the ticket was actually printed & dispensed, only that the machine issued the command to print and didn't return an error.

 

[bb21]

My take on this having had quite a few success stories including compo of £100 just yesterday for a bodged service call.

Use the words from "How to win friends and influence people " from the 30s

Dear SWT
Unfortunately the machine did not give me my ticket
I would appreciate it very much if it were possible for you to send me some rail vouchers to cover the cost of the extra ticket.

Kind Regards

Jumble

Don't go overboard. Getting too chummy could also see your letter go to the bottom of the pile and/or turn the advisor off.

I would appreciate it very much if you could send me some rail vouchers to cover the cost of the extra ticket.

... should be more than sufficient.

Then SWT need to modify their procedures.

The current system doesn't adequately prove the ticket was actually printed & dispensed, only that the machine issued the command to print and didn't return an error.

Are you speaking from a position of any authority? If so, I would very much like to know what insight you have because some of the others in this thread spoke with good authority.

 

[davowolf]

and in regards to the above 2 posts just how long do you think it would be before people cottoned on that a mistake may happen and thus you get 2 people travelling for the price of one?

Ahh, 'The Flood Gates' theory.... ....... of course we know that never happens don't we ?

 

[jumble]

Don't go overboard. Getting too chummy could also see your letter go to the bottom of the pile and/or turn the advisor off.

I agree 100% with this.

What you are trying to achieve at the risk of stating the obvious is to persuade the customer rep want to do the right thing and making it easy for him /her to do so as others have said by stating politely what will make the situation right

You will notice what I do not do in my suggestion
No legal threats
No bossing the rep about
No making the rep get the impression that you feel it is their personal fault
No "I am more important than you"
(You may be but he/she holds your money !)
No conflict

 

[davowolf]

You entirely circumvented the out-of-court escalation process, which is to go to Transport Focus.

Alas I've (OP) never heard of Transport Focus but will remember it for next time.

 

[rs101]

Are you speaking from a position of any authority? If so, I would very much like to know what insight you have because some of the others in this thread spoke with good authority.

No, just experience -20+ years in software development, including interfacing with warehouse printing & scanning equipment. That's taught me that no matter what a machine claims it's done, it doesn't always mean it actually did it..

My point in response to Clip was, if many suddenly start an extra 'lost' ticket, then the machine operator needs to check and change their procedures to clamp down on this, no different to how they'll review any other procedures if they detect abuse.

 

[talldave]

No, just experience -20+ years in software development, including interfacing with warehouse printing & scanning equipment. That's taught me that no matter what a machine claims it's done, it doesn't always mean it actually did it......

Depressing that those of us with an understanding of the engineering involved know that SWT's spreadsheet evidence was probably meaningless, since it's unlikely that the TVM has sufficient sensors to prove that a ticket has landed in the the trough and that that ticket is the last one physically printed.

 

[Greenback]

I used to work as a complaints manager, and I wholeheartedly agree with the advice to keep letters of complaint brief and objective. What the company is looking for is an explanation of the facts, what the complainant is unhappy about, and what they would like done to resolve things.

 

[Clip]

Ahh, 'The Flood Gates' theory.... ....... of course we know that never happens don't we ?

Well I am speaking from experience and im sure any of my colleagues who work in retail side of things on this forum both current and old will tell you that it does go on so can you show us how it doesnt then please?