Main Line Steam in Hampshire.

[45669]

Evening All,

We've been totally spoilt with main line steam specials on a regular and frequent basis in recent times. Some pictures of August trains are now on my Flickr site and if anyone is interested to see them they are in the 'Stop Press!' Collection; see the Sets dated 26th and 31st August :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/collections/72157627090322278/

This is where all the most recent additions go for the first few weeks. They can also be found in the 'Main Line Steam' collection which is here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/train-pix/collections/72157627155603462/

Hope that they're of interest.

 

[4SRKT]

Hopefully the main line steam in Hampshire won't be like the main line steam in Yorkshire that has totally ballsed up the ECML this afternoon.

We may have been 'totally spoilt with main line steam' recently, but now it's time for main line steam to totally spoil today for hundreds of thousands of people, all so a bunch of old men can pretend the real world doesn't exist.

It's time this nonsense was banned from the main line, unless the operators are prepared to accept that if they cause miles of lineside fires and thousands and thousands of individual delay hours, then they must compensate all affected passengers, TOCs and NR in full. Even then, is it really worth the aggravation?

 

[Schnellzug]

is that so? really? ok, look at the number of people who turn out to look at a "Kettle". Would any of these people turn out to see a Voyager, or even a beloved HST? Or even, for that matter, a pair of 37s dragging a 225 (say)? i very much doubt it. these despised "kettles" are just about the only reason that the public still has any residual affection for railways. did jeremy clarkson drive a 91? He did not. These despised "Kettles" do more good PR wise than any number of TOCs' press release burbling, or any number of Politicians promising any number of incredibly amazing high speed lines that'll let you get to Birmingham in 14 minutes, as if anyone would want to. Would the kids flock to see Vernon the Voyager? I probably doubt it.
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And let's face it, if it wasn't that it'd be something else, "lineside equipment failure" or any number of other choices from the Big Book of Excuses.

 

[4SRKT]

Have you any idea what is actually going on on the ECML at the moment? It's not doing any good PR wise, believe me.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am pretty sure that when HSTs reach the preservation stage, old men (I'll be old by the time they're retired!) will turn up to see them.

When the time comes, I'll join a HST preservation group. I'm not a fan of steam - that's due partly to my age.

 

[4SRKT]

I don't mind steam myself, but when you get things like today happening then enough's enough. I sincerely hope the operator of Oliver Cromwell and Sir Lamiel today is left open to be sued by every affected TOC and passenger, plus Network Rail and anyone who's lineside property has been destroyed by their wholly unnecessary activities.

The railway is not a playground, nor is it a PR stunt. It is a means of transport, and when disruption on the scale of today occurs then it is only a matter of time before Network Rail puts the foot down on this sort of thing.

 

[87015]

I don't mind steam myself, but when you get things like today happening then enough's enough. I sincerely hope the operator of Oliver Cromwell and Sir Lamiel today is left open to be sued by every affected TOC and passenger, plus Network Rail and anyone who's lineside property has been destroyed by their wholly unnecessary activities.

The railway is not a playground, nor is it a PR stunt. It is a means of transport, and when disruption on the scale of today occurs then it is only a matter of time before Network Rail puts the foot down on this sort of thing.

So you'll have the same moan every time a pres/heritage diesel or electric sits down on the mainline? Farces happen, whatever the traction, fact. Oh, and I think its WCRC, so lets sue them to high hell and then loose all their mainline diesel workings shall we (including the 50 tour this weekend)?

I'm don't 'do' steam at all, but the more pres stuff that is out and about the better, regardless of sticky digits.

 

[4SRKT]

So you'll have the same moan every time a pres/heritage diesel or electric sits down on the mainline? Farces happen, whatever the traction, fact. Oh, and I think its WCRC, so lets sue them to high hell and then loose all their mainline diesel workings shall we (including the 50 tour this weekend)?

I'm don't 'do' steam at all, but the more pres stuff that is out and about the better, regardless of sticky digits.

This is a bit different. This is the whole ECML paralysed. I understood it was the Railway Touring Company, not WCR. This is not a 'farce', this is waaaaay beyond that and someone will have to carry the can for the delay repay. It's not some sort of act of God, but something caused within the Railway itself, and therefore someone has to be held accountable.

Do you think anyone sitting in any of those trains gives a hoot about steam on the main line right now? In fact I think if they new that their delay was caused by such an utterly trivial reason (the pleasure of a few hundred enthusiasts against the inconvience to hundreds of thousands of others), they would be even angrier.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Would you be saying the same thing if a heritage diesel failed (or indeed, caught fire - as has happened)? I doubt it.

 

[4SRKT]

Would you be saying the same thing if a heritage diesel failed (or indeed, caught fire - as has happened)? I doubt it.

Yes, TBH I would. It wouldn't cause this much disruption though, would it?

It's not about heritage or anything else. We have, like it or not, a railway system that is very adversarial in its conception. It is entirely inconsistent for enthusiasts to think that an operator should be excused something that Cross Country or Virgin or whoever should not simply because we happen to like that operator.

I was on the CFPS tour to Cambridge last year when it failed just north of Grantham. There was a real sense of relief that it had not quite failed on the ECML because of the realisation of the potential impact on the CFPS has 145 given up the ghost another mile further on. Operators who venture onto such lines, be they EC, XC, CFPS or the twisted firestarters should be very careful indeed that their machines are in tip top condition.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

So you see the only solution as banning all heritage trips? Only letting commuter and freight traffic on the mainline?

 

[87015]

Well then, can I sign a petition that skoda rubbish is banned from the mainline completely after the fiasco 90042 caused the other day? After all, that completely closed the WCML for a few hours and I doubt the passengers gave a hoot what type of train had caused said chaos...

I remember a few hours sitting in a field near Cheltenham when the very mentioned 40145 sat down for a few hours blocking the NESW mainline, should it then have been confined to pres lines? I think not.

 

[4SRKT]

Well then, can I sign a petition that skoda rubbish is banned from the mainline completely after the fiasco 90042 caused the other day? After all, that completely closed the WCML for a few hours and I doubt the passengers gave a hoot what type of train had caused said chaos...

Did the operator of 90042 not get fined then? Anyway, I qualified my suggestion by saying that a ban should only be in order if operators can't compensate affected parties.

You seem to have a lot of empathy for the victims of this 'farce' as you so eloquently understate it. Well done.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

What exactly happned on the ECML today steam wise, the only thing I saw on the UK Steaminfo website was this;

Fri 02-Sep THE SCARBOROUGH FLYER [Times] (02/09)
Crewe-Scarborough [wcrc]
46201 70013/46100/60019: Crewe-Stockport-Huddersfield-York-Scarborough and return

[46201 derailed at Scarborough. Return diesel hauled] Princess Elizabeth.


Or was there also a light engine movement that went wrong.?

 

[4SRKT]

So you see the only solution as banning all heritage trips? Only letting commuter and freight traffic on the mainline?

No. What happened today couldn't possibly have happened on a Cranx-Ex. The worst that can happen to a diesel is it can fail, or catch fire. Even if it caught fire it couldn't set fire to two miles of lineside and foul up an entire main line for a whole afternoon on the busiest day of the week. Oliver Cromwell *did not* catch fire today, it set fire to something else, an important additional risk that diesel locos are unaffected by. The attitude on here seems to be that the disruption was worth putting up with because people turn out to see steam rather than Voyagers (quite how that raises revenue even for the steam operators is beyond me) or they are 'good PR' as someone even wrote :roll: I guess nobody expressing such views was actually caught up in this.

Diesel tours should be permitted, but always with an insurance loco. Steam tours should only be permitted off trunk routes. This still leaves loads of places they can run: I think most normals would rather take a steam special to Mallaig, over the S&C, Cambrian etc than the ECML anyway. Longer distance tours should be diesel hauled until a suitably low-risk handover point, such as Hellifield, is reached. Steam locos should not haul ECS workings or work LE under their own power over trunk routes.

EDIT: It appears today's farce was caused by OC and SL working LE from York to Southall. Good grief. Who on Earth thought that would be a good idea? Hopefully he'll be 'enjoying' a sleepless night tonight.

 

[Bittern]

Yes, TBH I would. It wouldn't cause this much disruption though, would it?

It's not about heritage or anything else. We have, like it or not, a railway system that is very adversarial in its conception. It is entirely inconsistent for enthusiasts to think that an operator should be excused something that Cross Country or Virgin or whoever should not simply because we happen to like that operator.

I was on the CFPS tour to Cambridge last year when it failed just north of Grantham. There was a real sense of relief that it had not quite failed on the ECML because of the realisation of the potential impact on the CFPS has 145 given up the ghost another mile further on. Operators who venture onto such lines, be they EC, XC, CFPS or the twisted firestarters should be very careful indeed that their machines are in tip top condition.

A ScotRail Class 334 broke down on the single section near Hamilton and caused chaos for hundreds of commuters and had shockwave effects on the service for the rest of the day. So, should Class 334s be banned from the mainline too?

Here's a thought: Since steam railtours began in 1971, how many times out of ten has the loco failed? You're talking about one. One time out of ten, average. How many times out of ten does a 334 fail? Quite a bit more than a steam loco.

Stop moaning.

 

[4SRKT]

A ScotRail Class 334 broke down on the single section near Hamilton and caused chaos for hundreds of commuters and had shockwave effects on the service for the rest of the day. So, should Class 334s be banned from the mainline too?

Here's a thought: Since steam railtours began in 1971, how many times out of ten has the loco failed? You're talking about one. One time out of ten, average. How many times out of ten does a 334 fail? Quite a bit more than a steam loco.

Stop moaning.

You are suggesting that 334s fail 10% of the time? I don't believe you. Mind you I don't believe it's that bad for kettles either.

334s are working real services, not playing at trains running LE on a trunk route. 334s have a real reason for being on the main line, and anyway ScotRail will have been inundated with delay repay if the disruption was sufficient. My suggestion that kettles be banned from trunk routes is entirely reasonable and still leaves plenty of scope for normals and kettle veg to enjoy themselves.

A failed train is a totally different kettle of fish to a burning lineside. A failed train causes disruption until it is got out of the way (only on one line on a double track section). Today's burning lineside caused far more disruption that a single failed train could ever have done and such an event can only ever be caused by a kettle.

 

[Bittern]

But how is it worth banning them just because they might fail? It may not actually be one in ten, but won't be far off, that I can tell you. They earn NR money which in turn could be put back into the railway. If you ban heritage steam, you must ban heritage diesel as well as they too might fail. I can recall a story of a heritage deltic catching fire, but it wasn't banned.

You blab all this now, but I'm betting you'll be on a platform somewhere in ten - twenty years to see a heritage HST go by and probably kick up hell when a service train getsi n the way of your picture or video.

 

[4SRKT]

But how is it worth banning them just because they might fail? It may not actually be one in ten, but won't be far off, that I can tell you. They earn NR money which in turn could be put back into the railway. If you ban heritage steam, you must ban heritage diesel as well as they too might fail. I can recall a story of a heritage deltic catching fire, but it wasn't banned.

You blab all this now, but I'm betting you'll be on a platform somewhere in ten - twenty years to see a heritage HST go by and probably kick up hell when a service train getsi n the way of your picture or video.

No I won't, because I am a rail enthusiast who likes The Railway, not some rose-tinted hankering after the past. I love it for what it is: a means of transport like no other.

I don't want to ban kettles entirely, just from places like the ECML where they are a damned nuisance. As for the banning heritage diesel argument, as I've repeatedly pointed out, no diesel could ever cause what happened today. Also cranks don't tend to mind an insurance loco being dragged around, but would kettle veg really want that (given that it would be a diesel)? Surely better to restrict steam activities to 'safer' places than have some duff in the way.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

NAs for the heritage HST argument (i) as I've repeatedly pointed out, no diesel could ever cause what happened today, and (ii) I don't like HSTs anyway

According to Bittern, a deltic caught fire. You can't run trains past that either, and the emergency services will not go on the line until all movements have been stopped.

So yes, a diesel could cause the disruption today.

 

[4SRKT]

According to Bittern, a deltic caught fire. You can't run trains past that either, and the emergency services will not go on the line until all movements have been stopped.

So yes, a diesel could cause the disruption today.

But is a lot less likely to. A diesel can fail or catch fire. A kettle can do both of these PLUS it can do what it did today (on a needless LE movement for goodness' sake!), so it is a higher risk before it even leaves the shed.

It's a lot quicker job to put out a burning deltic than to put out two miles of burning lineside as happened today. Do you actually know what happened today, or how much disruption it caused, and is still causing? My point (again repeated and again to be ignored) is that it's location that matters. Failing or catching fire or destroying 2 miles of lineside matters A LOT MORE between York and Doncaster than it does between Hellfield and Carlisle (for example).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It's a lot quicker job to put out a burning deltic than to put out two miles of burning lineside as happened today.

It may be, but you've still got to move the damaged locomotive afterwards, which would require staff, engineers and locos. A lot more work to clear the line after the event.

Do you actually know what happened today, or how much disruption it caused, and is still causing?

Yes thanks.

My point (again repeated and again to be ignored) is that it's location that matters. Failing or catching fire or destroying 2 miles of lineside matters A LOT MORE between York and Doncaster than it does between Hellfield and Carlisle (for example).

So why don't we just ban all heritage railtours from mainlines? That by extension of your logic that is the perfect solution.

 

[4SRKT]

So why don't we just ban all heritage railtours from mainlines? That by extension of your logic that is the perfect solution.

I haven't said that at all. Don't extend other people's logic, it can lead you to all sorts of wrong conclusions.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I haven't said that at all. Don't extend other people's logic, it can lead you to all sorts of wrong conclusions.

As you said, running old locomotives carries a risk of failure, fires etc. If your true aim is to lessen the effect of these failures then it is logical to ban all heritage trains from trunk routes - to lessen the risk. If not, it just looks like you're taking the opportunity to have an unfounded moan at kettles.

 

[4SRKT]

Yes thanks.

But you still think it's OK, as long as some clown can run a kettle LE up the ECML, rather than diesel hauling it?
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As you said, running old locomotives carries a risk of failure, fires etc. If your true aim is to lessen the effect of these failures then it is logical to ban all heritage trains from trunk routes - to lessen the risk. If not, it just looks like you're taking the opportunity to have an unfounded moan at kettles.

If what you say I say is true, then that aim would be to remove, not lessen the risk. Lessening the risk is important, and the simple steps of no kettles on trunk routes, and no kettle-hauled LE or ECS movements at all would assist with this. I don't believe removing all risks is possible or desirable, and for the good of future kettle operation on Network Rail, avoidable farces like today should not happen as they do no good whatsoever either to steam's image or to NR's attitude towards it.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If what you say I say is true, then that aim would be to remove, not lessen the risk. Lessening the risk is important, and the simple steps of no kettles on trunk routes, and no kettle-hauled LE or ECS movements at all. I don't believe removing all risks is possible or desirable, and for the good of future kettle operation on Network Rail, avoidable farces like today should not happen as they do no good whatsoever either to steam's image or to NR's attitude towards it.

Yet your heritage diesels are still allowed to run, despite the continual failures and fires.

You want a railway unhindered by failures (etc), so why not remove all non-essential traffic from them? That would include your precious diesels as well.

For the record, I don't really mind whether railtours continue to run on NR. Quite frankly, in a few years it is likely that steamers and the old diesels are banned from NR infrastructure as they start to fall behind standards, and more pressure for more paths is exerted on NR by the TOCs.

 

[4SRKT]

Yet your heritage diesels are still allowed to run, despite the continual failures and fires.

You want a railway unhindered by failures (etc), so why not remove all non-essential traffic from them? That would include your precious diesels as well.

For the record, I don't really mind whether railtours continue to run on NR. Quite frankly, in a few years it is likely that steamers and the old diesels are banned from NR infrastructure as they start to fall behind standards, and more pressure for more paths is exerted on NR by the TOCs.

<sigh> Heritage steam is still allowed to run, but under stricter controls. No ECSs on the ECML with the grate open or whatever ridiculous nonsense went on today. The answer to diesel failures is insurance locos and maybe this is also the answer for kettles in respect of failures. In respect of lineside fires the answer is the keep them off important trunk routes.

I want a railway with risk of failure minimised. Risk can't be removed, and please stop putting words in my mouth. A few simple steps keeps the risk down and the kettles running.

 

[AlexS]

In the last 5 years for example on one occasion I spent 7 hours sat on Leicester station because an EWS freight train lost it's air and blocked the Brum line at Daw Mill compounded by the fact the Derby line was closed for engineering works so everything was meant to be via Leicester, waiting for either a train or a bus, with several thousand other very angry people, while NR steadfastly refused to allow the train to be rescued for one technicality or another.

I don't believe that freight trains should be banned for causing this catastrophe incident.

Or Network Rail should cease to exist for throwing a 390 down an embankment, Freightliner for their magical combusting 90, FCC for their Networker dragging down the overhead lines, and so on.

It's a traction failure that may well even be down to human error. You're stuck in the middle of it so it's ****ed you off. OK something caught fire, it's no different to a mass signalling failure or a loco sitting down on a trunk route, or Railtrack failing to ensure it's property was maintained correctly and flinging a busy express train off the line on a curve at 115 mph.

Actually, wait, it is different in this case, because no one died.

Having spent 7 hours being lied to, in the rain, by Central Trains that my train was due to leave in 'the next 30 minutes' I can feel your pain, but it's overreactionary gibber. There's nothing inherently wrong with steam traction.

 

[4SRKT]

In the last 5 years for example on one occasion I spent 7 hours sat on Leicester station because an EWS freight train lost it's air and blocked the Brum line at Daw Mill compounded by the fact the Derby line was closed for engineering works so everything was meant to be via Leicester, waiting for either a train or a bus, with several thousand other very angry people, while NR steadfastly refused to allow the train to be rescued for one technicality or another.

I don't believe that freight trains should be banned for causing this catastrophe incident.

Or Network Rail should cease to exist for throwing a 390 down an embankment, Freightliner for their magical combusting 90, FCC for their Networker dragging down the overhead lines, and so on.

It's a traction failure that may well even be down to human error. You're stuck in the middle of it so it's ****ed you off. OK something caught fire, it's no different to a mass signalling failure or a loco sitting down on a trunk route, or Railtrack failing to ensure it's property was maintained correctly and flinging a busy express train off the line on a curve at 115 mph.

Actually, wait, it is different in this case, because no one died.

Having spent 7 hours being lied to, in the rain, by Central Trains that my train was due to leave in 'the next 30 minutes' I can feel your pain, but it's overreactionary gibber. There's nothing inherently wrong with steam traction.

I'm not stuck in the middle of it. I'm sitting in an attic in Shipley, where I've been all evening. It's not the same sort of traction failure as a service train or a freight train as there is no reason whatsoever to be running steam locomotives light on a trunk route, as contibutes nothing even if it doesn't set fire to half of Yorkshire. IIRR Railtrack were severely reprimanded for their shortcomings to the point of being eventually abolished. Whoever is responsible for the chaos today needs to be hauled over the coals big time. Happily there are plenty of coals to be hauled over, but less happily they are all over the track. I have been the Rail Enthusiast's Rail Enthusiast all my life, but tonight it's gone too far and I would happily support a ban on kettles on trunk routes, and an insistence that they are diesel hauled on any route except when in revenue earning service. I doubt I'm alone.

 

[Daimler]

A failed train is a totally different kettle of fish to a burning lineside. A failed train causes disruption until it is got out of the way (only on one line on a double track section). Today's burning lineside caused far more disruption that a single failed train could ever have done and such an event can only ever be caused by a kettle.

That's not necessarily true - it depends what sort of a 'failed train' we're talking about. When an AC loco/unit brings down half a mile of wires on the WCML/ECML, it can cause hours and hours of heavy delays for huge numbers of people - and this happens depressingly often. It too might indeed be running ECS or light engine, and therefore merely be 'playing at trains', as you put it.

While today's problems are highly regrettable (and, as you say, very bad PR both for 'Steam Trains' and the industry as a whole), the fact that there are steam loco movements and steam-hauled trains running almost every day all over the country - without incident - should not be ignored.