Major flaw with Permits to travel / Penalty fares

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yorkie

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(Note for people not familiar with penalty fare areas: PTT = Permit to Travel, a piece of paper you exchange for a ticket. RPI = Revenue Protection Inspector)

What can stop this happening?

RPI joins train, asks for ticket/PTT.

Passenger hands RPI their PTT.

RPI leaves the train, instructs a different RPI to check that person's ticket.

The new RPI asks for ticket/PTT.

Passenger says "previous RPI has it!"

New RPI says "No he hasn't. I don't believe you."

What is there to stop that happening?
 
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yorkie

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Galvanize said:
Nothing, IIRC. You just get Penalty Fared and you have to write up your correct details.
I will be taking this to the highest level possible to ensure the answer is NOT "nothing".

In fact, there is something: a witness. However that is NOT good enough, and should not be needed. :x
 

jd

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Hang on, why did the first RPI take the PTT and not give the passener a valid ticket?

I was under the impression you obtained a PTT, and then handed over the PTT and the remainder of the fare to the the RPI/Conductor/Station staff at destination in exchange for a valid ticket?
 

ChrisM

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jd said:
Hang on, why did the first RPI take the PTT and not give the passener a valid ticket?

I was under the impression you obtained a PTT, and then handed over the PTT and the remainder of the fare to the the RPI/Conductor/Station staff at destination in exchange for a valid ticket?
Thought that aswell as a PTT is for part payment towards a ticket.
 
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A permit to travel should be handed over for exchange of a ticket. That permit is there so that you do not get a penalty charge. If a RPI asks you for a ticket or a permit to travel and you dont have anything, regardless of previous RPI taking them(your own fault IMO). you still need to upon request show your ticket or permit to travel. By not having it, it should be a penalty fare recieved.

Why bother taking it to the highest levels? Face it you recieved a penalty charge! For someone like you that 'claims' to be a routing guide expert and all the different tiicket types you know, surely you would of known better. Just take it as a valuable lesson learnt!
 

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London Midland said:
If a RPI asks you for a ticket or a permit to travel and you dont have anything, regardless of previous RPI taking them(your own fault IMO).
But if the previous gripper has gone off with it, what are you meant to do?
 

yorkie

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London Midland said:
A permit to travel should be handed over for exchange of a ticket.
It was

London Midland said:
That permit is there so that you do not get a penalty charge. If a RPI asks you for a ticket or a permit to travel and you dont have anything, regardless of previous RPI taking them(your own fault IMO).
How was it my fault? Should I have not handed it over? you just said I should!

London Midland said:
you still need to upon request show your ticket or permit to travel. By not having it, it should be a penalty fare recieved.
So I should not have handed it over?
London Midland said:
Why bother taking it to the highest levels?
I will, you can be sure of that. Because the system is flawed.
London Midland said:
Face it you recieved a penalty charge!
I didn't, but if I had I would have demanded a lot of compensation.
London Midland said:
For someone like you that 'claims' to be a routing guide expert and all the different tiicket types you know, surely you would of known better.
How does knowing the routeing guide and ticket types help here? Do tell!

London Midland said:
Just take it as a valuable lesson learnt!
Yes, the lesson I learnt is that some RPIs play dirty tricks.
 

Met Driver

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I think the other key issue here is that RPIs should finish dealing with one passenger before dealing with another. Unfortunately the RPI on the service in question had to leave the train in order to deal with another passenger, despite being half way through dealing with yorkie. The RPI took the PTT with him without providing a 'proper' ticket.
 

yorkie

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Seth said:
I think the other key issue here is that RPIs should finish dealing with one passenger before dealing with another.
Absolutely right. I will demand answers. I will take this to the top.

The fact people like London Midland say it's my fault makes me more determined than ever.

I will fight for our rights. And, I will win.
 
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yorkie said:
London Midland said:
A permit to travel should be handed over for exchange of a ticket.
It was

London Midland said:
That permit is there so that you do not get a penalty charge. If a RPI asks you for a ticket or a permit to travel and you dont have anything, regardless of previous RPI taking them(your own fault IMO).
How was it my fault? Should I have not handed it over? you just said I should!

London Midland said:
you still need to upon request show your ticket or permit to travel. By not having it, it should be a penalty fare recieved.
So I should not have handed it over?
London Midland said:
Why bother taking it to the highest levels?
I will, you can be sure of that. Because the system is flawed.
London Midland said:
Face it you recieved a penalty charge!
I didn't, but if I had I would have demanded a lot of compensation.
London Midland said:
For someone like you that 'claims' to be a routing guide expert and all the different tiicket types you know, surely you would of known better.
How does knowing the routeing guide and ticket types help here? Do tell!

London Midland said:
Just take it as a valuable lesson learnt!
Yes, the lesson I learnt is that some RPIs play dirty tricks.
So theoretically you are accusing my collegues of playing dirty tricks. Hmm no wonder you enthusiasts get a bad name by rail staff because you criticise us.

You dont make it clear to me... so you actually had handed in you Permit for a ticket? but did you get a ticket.

By the way, why have you accused me of being someone else yorkie? You havent give me the best impressions of yourself.
 

yorkie

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London Midland said:
So theoretically you are accusing my collegues of playing dirty tricks.
Yes, I certainly am. Perhaps you can offer an alternative explanation? Can you answer my earlier points?
London Midland said:
Hmm no wonder you enthusiasts get a bad name by rail staff because you criticise us.
Who do you work for? I am quite within my rights to criticise the way the RPIs acted on Thursday.
London Midland said:
You dont make it clear to me... so you actually had handed in you Permit for a ticket? but did you get a ticket.
I am not sure how I can make it clearer; yes that is correct.
London Midland said:
By the way, why have you accused me of being someone else yorkie? You havent give me the best impressions of yourself.
That issue will be dealt with in PM. As for what impression I give, perhaps it alarms a tiny proportion of rail employees who do a bad job that some passengers know & demand their rights. They are a great dis-service to the industry; the vast majority of rail employees do an excellent job. Those who don't need to be dealt with.
 
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Why would I tell you who I work for?

it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure the RPI gave him a ticket when he withdrew the PTT. You could of said something but you never, your in the wrong

Oh yeah, the fact that you play with door panels and dangerously hang out of trains is bad! so before you think about criticising staff you should think about what safety implications you are putting on the passengers

You can try with your case but you wont win. Thats the last on this subject from me
 

yorkie

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London Midland said:
Why would I tell you who I work for?
You work for GNER. Except you now dislike them, so maybe they sacked you?
London Midland said:
it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure the RPI gave him a ticket when he withdrew the PTT. You could of said something but you never, your in the wrong
Hmm.. the RPI starts dealing with someone else and leaves the train. How can I "ensure" he issues me a ticket?! :shock:
 

yorkie

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Craig said:
I've been asked by London Midland to point out that he has not been sacked by GNER, I can confirm this.
Thanks for that. I wonder why he is so damning about GNER on my Fotopic comments.
 

Craig

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yorkie said:
Craig said:
I've been asked by London Midland to point out that he has not been sacked by GNER, I can confirm this.
Thanks for that. I wonder why he is so damning about GNER on my Fotopic comments.
I've just had a look at your comments and couldn't see any that were "damming about GNER". However, I don't know whether any of the comments were left by London Midland or not and I'm not really that interested.
 

yorkie

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150265 said:
Doubt you will win Yorkie as they will probably if at fault not admit to it,but good luck. :)
If they don't, I'll discuss the matter with the ORR (Office of Rail Regulation) and the RPC (Rail Passengers Council).

I found a useful document on the ORR site.
ORR said:
12. Prohibition on charging penalty fares
1. If the Regulator has reasonable grounds for suspecting that any Operator shall have failed to comply with any of the provisions of the Regulations or these Rules he may issue a notice to such Operator prohibiting him from charging penalty fares, whereupon such Operator shall forthwith cease to charge penalty fares until such time as the notice shall be revoked by the Regulator
Sounds to me like that should apply in this case. They don't stick to the rules, therefore they have to stop their penalty fares scheme until they comply. I'll consider pushing for this to happen if I am not satisfied with the response from FGWL.
 

Tom B

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Rather than giving staff a bad impression of enthusiasts, doesn't this point out exactly why enthusiasts have a bad impression of some rail staff?
 

Mojo

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How did I guess that this happenned on FGWLink, the whole way it's run is aggressive.
 

Max

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This seems like a terrible error made the RPI. Good luck with your legal fight Yorkie.
 

jd

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Good Luck Yorkie, completely behind you on this. By the way, all the rail staff I've encountered are very friendly towards enthusiasts - do you remember the lady on the Stourbridge shuttle? Arrogant staff (don't even ask me about the man in Snow Hill the other day), when you encounter them, are a complete pain in the a**e, and all I have to say is that BPC sounds like one of those rail staff. Incidentally, you'd think that if you were old enough to be in employment, you'd be sufficently mature to not run some childish campaign of harassment and trouble towards this forum and to yorkie in particular. :roll:
 

TheSlash

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Ladies and Gentlemen, once again the same player has run the length of the pitch to get involved with something that had nothing to do with him. I ask you, how much longer will the referee put up with this sort of behaviour before he brandishes the red card?
 
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