Major Signalling failure Cambrian.

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PHILIPE

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major signalling failure at Machynlleth (ERTMS) is affecting the whole route and is expected to do so until approx 1400. An odd train has got through but passengers have been advised not to travel before 1800. Unable to source busses, none available. .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Looks like a concentrator fault (whatever that is) , basically the signaller has no working phones so it's unsafe to run trains. The backup has also failed.
No trains ran contrary to my previous post so whole line closed Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Dovey Jn to Barmouth and with no bustitution.
If it's back tonight, there are massive cancellations due to traincrew shortages but busses were already arranged yesterday.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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major signalling failure at Machynlleth (ERTMS) is affecting the whole route and is expected to do so until approx 1400. An odd train has got through but passengers have been advised not to travel before 1800. Unable to source busses, none available. .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Looks like a concentrator fault (whatever that is) , basically the signaller has no working phones so it's unsafe to run trains. The backup has also failed.
No trains ran contrary to my previous post so whole line closed Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Dovey Jn to Barmouth and with no bustitution.
If it's back tonight, there are massive cancellations due to traincrew shortages but busses were already arranged yesterday.

It will have disrupted many holiday plans I expect.
If we wind on 5-ish years, I hope the ECML has better backup plans for its ETCS installation (with no lineside signal fallback)...
 

ge-gn

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major signalling failure at Machynlleth (ERTMS) is affecting the whole route and is expected to do so until approx 1400. An odd train has got through but passengers have been advised not to travel before 1800. Unable to source busses, none available. .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Looks like a concentrator fault (whatever that is) , basically the signaller has no working phones so it's unsafe to run trains. The backup has also failed.
No trains ran contrary to my previous post so whole line closed Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Dovey Jn to Barmouth and with no bustitution.
If it's back tonight, there are massive cancellations due to traincrew shortages but busses were already arranged yesterday.

The concentrator is basically where all the crossing phones etc come into the signal box, all in one box with one handset. In some senses like an exchange without the ability to connect calls. If it is the concentrator, it's a telecom failure rather than a signalling failure. (Unless these are interlinked somehow on ERTMS.)
 

Drogba11CFC

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I got caught up in it. Complete chaos; got an X29 bus to Machynlleth, then was moved to the front of the taxi queue as I was going to Winchester. Now on an ATW service from Shrewsbury to New Street.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 

PHILIPE

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The concentrator is basically where all the crossing phones etc come into the signal box, all in one box with one handset. In some senses like an exchange without the ability to connect calls. If it is the concentrator, it's a telecom failure rather than a signalling failure. (Unless these are interlinked somehow on ERTMS.)

Thanks for explaining that for the benefit of laymen like myself when it comes down to technology.
I'm glad somebody else has posted here as I seemed to be the only one. I'll bet if it had been such an incident in the North of England or round London area, there would have been several pages by now.
 

Gareth Marston

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Last train to run was 0630 Aber to Shrewsbury it ran in degraded mode from Llanybrynmair to Shrewsbury.
2 coaches sourced from RJ Jones ran Aber to Salop approx 0930 and return so road replacement very sparodic..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"2G45 on its way from Barmouth to Machynlleth due to public order issues"

Sounds like frayed tempers on coast.
 

rebmcr

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Would an immediate solution be to post safety-trained ATW staff at the crossings?

Perhaps the crossings' landline telephones should be replaced with GSM-R-based equipment long-term — we know the route is covered!
 
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PHILIPE

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Would an immediate solution be to post safety-trained ATW staff at the crossings?

Perhaps the crossings' landline telephones should be replaced with GSM-R-based equipment long-term — we know the route is covered!

The responsibility for crossings is Network Rails's not the TOCs. ATW wouldn't have staff trained for such a task and where where would all the staff come from to cover every little farm crossings that's along the route.
The line has now re-opened but residual delays expected until 1800.
 

ge-gn

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Would an immediate solution be to post safety-trained ATW staff at the crossings?

Perhaps the crossings' landline telephones should be replaced with GSM-R-based equipment long-term — we know the route is covered!

I'm not familiar with the area in question, but it maybe that 'mobile' technology is already being used at these crossings. None the less, no matter whether it's mobile, cabled, or string with two tin cans, it still has to go into a concentrator. And if the concentrator fails you're stuffed.
 

Sunset route

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Would an immediate solution be to post safety-trained ATW staff at the crossings?

Perhaps the crossings' landline telephones should be replaced with GSM-R-based equipment long-term — we know the route is covered!

If it's 10 occupation crossings with phone comms then that how staff on the ground you would need or as many as there are crossings with phones or plenty of chains and padlocks to lock the said crossings shut.

Best not totally rely on GSM-R as its not totally 100% in coverage or reliability.
 

tsr

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Something like this recently (last few months) happened once or twice on the Arun Valley, which does have London services et al. It's a rural route in places, but it is busy with traffic to and from London and Gatwick, and I don't think it really made headline news.

In the end trains were being cautioned as though there was a risk of obstruction on most of the (numerous) level crossings, until enough staff were found to man each one. By the time that was done, a significant quantity of S&T resources had been poured into troubleshooting and the problem had basically been resolved. I seem to remember trains each losing around 30mins over the affected area.

The surprising thing was just exactly how many staff could be called upon to intervene; IIRC Land Sheriffs, BTP, NR MOMs and local station management were all called upon, probably amongst others. As I understand it, they were monitoring crossings locally and using mobile phones linked to the internal phone network to communicate with different telephone facilities in the signalling centre.
 
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LAX54

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Something like this recently (last few months) happened once or twice on the Arun Valley, which does have London services et al. It's a rural route in places, but it is busy with traffic to and from London and Gatwick, and I don't think it really made headline news.

In the end trains were being cautioned as though there was a risk of obstruction on most of the (numerous) level crossings, until enough staff were found to man each one. By the time that was done, a significant quantity of S&T resources had been poured into troubleshooting and the problem had basically been resolved. I seem to remember trains each losing around 30mins over the affected area.

The surprising thing was just exactly how many staff could be called upon to intervene; IIRC Land Sheriffs, BTP, NR MOMs and local station management were all called upon, probably amongst others. As I understand it, they were monitoring crossings locally and using mobile phones linked to the internal phone network to communicate with different telephone facilities in the signalling centre.


seems that the concentrators on both workstations E & W failed, and kept trying to reboot, so if that was the case then the Signaller is stuffed, cant talk to anyone, and of course depending on how many crossings are involved, it becomes a safety issue, its ok having one or two manned with a mobile, or similar, but get more than that, is when errors can creep in.
 

tsr

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seems that the concentrators on both workstations E & W failed, and kept trying to reboot, so if that was the case then the Signaller is stuffed, cant talk to anyone, and of course depending on how many crossings are involved, it becomes a safety issue, its ok having one or two manned with a mobile, or similar, but get more than that, is when errors can creep in.

The crossings involved will easily be in 3 figures.

Ah, now that figure is quite a bit higher than I've ever seen dealt with at once... though I have seen rather more than one or two at a time with alternative personnel/phones resourced!

Concentrators seem to go wrong in multiple round here, too, though...

It does make me wonder about the resilience and redundancy within the concentrator system, though. I know these things can be hideously expensive to install and test, but that sounds like an awful lot of phones relying on limited resources.
 

the-gog

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If it's 10 occupation crossings with phone comms then that how staff on the ground you would need or as many as there are crossings with phones or plenty of chains and padlocks to lock the said crossings shut.

Best not totally rely on GSM-R as its not totally 100% in coverage or reliability.

Well, it has to be for ERTMS to work. If GSM-R drops anywhere, then trains default to degraded working at 15mph.
 

rebmcr

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Do GSM-R calls feed into the concentrator, or do they remain digital with their own interface in the workstation?
 

LAX54

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Do GSM-R calls feed into the concentrator, or do they remain digital with their own interface in the workstation?

GSM-R have their own terminals, and if one fails (terminal, not system) it can be transferred to another terminal, if that is close by / feasible
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, now that figure is quite a bit higher than I've ever seen dealt with at once... though I have seen rather more than one or two at a time with alternative personnel/phones resourced!

Concentrators seem to go wrong in multiple round here, too, though...

It does make me wonder about the resilience and redundancy within the concentrator system, though. I know these things can be hideously expensive to install and test, but that sounds like an awful lot of phones relying on limited resources.

The most we have dealt with under a failure situation is cautioning for 12 sets of AHB's and 3 UWC's needless to say, over the 30 miles trains lost almost an hour !
 

Sunset route

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Something like this recently (last few months) happened once or twice on the Arun Valley, which does have London services et al. It's a rural route in places, but it is busy with traffic to and from London and Gatwick, and I don't think it really made headline news.

In the end trains were being cautioned as though there was a risk of obstruction on most of the (numerous) level crossings, until enough staff were found to man each one. By the time that was done, a significant quantity of S&T resources had been poured into troubleshooting and the problem had basically been resolved. I seem to remember trains each losing around 30mins over the affected area.

The surprising thing was just exactly how many staff could be called upon to intervene; IIRC Land Sheriffs, BTP, NR MOMs and local station management were all called upon, probably amongst others. As I understand it, they were monitoring crossings locally and using mobile phones linked to the internal phone network to communicate with different telephone facilities in the signalling centre.

I was working that day, it wasn't pretty and it also effected panel 5 as well on the Keymer to Lewes section.
 
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pompeyfan

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Quick question regarding the Arun line, are there still semaphores along there?
 

Flying_Turtle

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As a matter of curiosity, Portuguese LC s do not have a public line to the signaller but have have a phone number where to call in case of problems.
And by what I know, public mobile networks are used as redundancy to the rail coms.
 

Sunset route

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Quick question regarding the Arun line, are there still semaphores along there?

All under the control of Three Bridges ASC panel 7 down to/from North Stoke Tunnel inclusive where it fringes with Arundel Box. From Crawley (inclusive)/ Dorking (exclusive) to Christ's Hospital it's convention 2/3/4 multi aspect signals and from Christ's Hospital to North Stoke it is 3 aspect single aperture LEDs. All the Semaphores were gone by spring 2014.
 

BRblue

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Something like this recently (last few months) happened once or twice on the Arun Valley, which does have London services et al. It's a rural route in places, but it is busy with traffic to and from London and Gatwick, and I don't think it really made headline news.

In the end trains were being cautioned as though there was a risk of obstruction on most of the (numerous) level crossings, until enough staff were found to man each one. By the time that was done, a significant quantity of S&T resources had been poured into troubleshooting and the problem had basically been resolved. I seem to remember trains each losing around 30mins over the affected area.

The surprising thing was just exactly how many staff could be called upon to intervene; IIRC Land Sheriffs, BTP, NR MOMs and local station management were all called upon, probably amongst others. As I understand it, they were monitoring crossings locally and using mobile phones linked to the internal phone network to communicate with different telephone facilities in the signalling centre.

If I remember rightly quite a few of the Londons diverted via Hove... to try and reduce the delay time.
 

Crossover

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Looks like a concentrator fault (whatever that is) , basically the signaller has no working phones so it's unsafe to run trains. The backup has also failed.
No trains ran contrary to my previous post so whole line closed Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and Dovey Jn to Barmouth and with no bustitution.
If it's back tonight, there are massive cancellations due to traincrew shortages but busses were already arranged yesterday.

Were services able to run from Pwlheli to Barmouth then, or was that affected too?

Last train to run was 0630 Aber to Shrewsbury it ran in degraded mode from Llanybrynmair to Shrewsbury.

What does degraded mode entail? I guess it would be like running under caution in case of obstructions on the crossings? The actual signalling itself wasn't affected was it?
 

Gareth Marston

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Were services able to run from Pwlheli to Barmouth then, or was that affected too?



What does degraded mode entail? I guess it would be like running under caution in case of obstructions on the crossings? The actual signalling itself wasn't affected was it?

Whole of Cambrian west of Sutton Brudge Junction was effected.

Degraded running 15 mph under caution. The Cambrian has a very large number of user worked crossings so with the phones out there was no way for road users to contact signallers in Mach. Though given the number of instances of drivers not bothering to phone..............
 

SpacePhoenix

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Long term, could many of the user worked crossings be closed with a few strategic ones being converted to automatic barrier crossings? Presumably some of the crossings are linking two sides of farms
 

the-gog

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Long term, could many of the user worked crossings be closed with a few strategic ones being converted to automatic barrier crossings? Presumably some of the crossings are linking two sides of farms

There is an ongoing plan to close many of the UWCs and their replacement with new roads and/or bridges.
 

Bald Rick

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There is an ongoing plan to close many of the UWCs and their replacement with new roads and/or bridges.

For UWCs the usual plan is to offer cash to the farmers to relinquish their rights across the crossings. Very, very rarely does the solution involve new bridges for private crossings.
 
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