Malky Mackay apologises for "disrespectful" messages

[bb21]

I do not agree that just because such a term is used within ethnic communities themselves, others should be freely allowed to use them. Yes, context may help, and I don't think between friends it would be an issue to refer to each other in any way you like as it is understood that no harm is intended. But this is dangerous coming from a stranger, and context is not the answer to everything. How are you supposed to know what a stranger is really thinking, especially considering that a significant number of people still do think like that (although I hope that they are in the very minority)?

I think we have short memories as a society. In the last decade or so, there has gradually been a trend for some previously derogatory terms to start being used as a newfound way of expressing defiance, then as a symbol of cultural identity, generally by the younger generation. Yes, language evolves over time and amongst the younger generation, many of whom were brought up as equals to their pals, such terms probably conjure up much less of an image of prejudice, discrimination, repression and struggle for equality, something many of the first or second generation post-war immigrants still have vivid memories about. These terms mean something much more sinister and nasty to those people, without whom fighting for us, we would not have the equality, social acceptance and integration that we take nowadays for granted. To brush these issues lightly aside shows incredible insensitivity and ignorance towards these people and their sufferings. Many of these people who have first-hand experience of wide-spread prejudice and discrimination are still around. Perhaps in 100 years' time, when these older generations have passed, this would be a much less controversial subject, but this is unlikely to be any time soon.

There is also a tendency in our society these days that because community relations have improved and because it was a shameful part of our history, we would rather not talk about it and lightly brush over these issues because "attitude in society has changed" or "language has evolved". Yes, most people are far more accepting compared to their fathers' or grandfathers' generations and these issues are much less prominent than 50 or 60 years ago, but prejudices still rear their ugly heads from time to time. We are still working on it and it is not something that can be conveniently placed on the backburner. It will not die out by itself so should be challenged every time it happens.

Without doubt, some of these words cause different levels of feelings amongst different ethnic communities. For example, "chinky" would cause much less uproar amongst Oriental communities compared "paki" amongst Asian communities and "******" to the black communities, partly because racial tension never was as big an issue for the former as it was for the latter.

I don't think someone like Mackay should be excused for such behaviour for two very important reasons. Firstly assuming that the reports were true, why does he feel the need to stereotype Jewish people? Why does he feel that he needed to use such a term to refer to the Korean player, his player, in such a derogatory way? Why would he ever think of using these words in such a negative tone if there were no deep-rooted prejudices at the back of his mind along those lines? It was quite clearly not friendly banter with his friends as they were used in a vicious way to attack someone. This to me shows a darker side of his mind and I find that objectionable. If he truly believes in equality and respect towards the past, he would not be using such terms in those circumstances. I may get extremely frustrated or annoyed with an Asian person, but I would never in my wildest dreams call them a "paki" or anything like that.

Secondly he is a public figure, whether he likes it or not. That is an occupational hazard that comes with the job. His actions will be closely watched and words scrutinised. He is a talented football manager, and he is bound to be a role model to some people, some young Cardiff fans and Watford fans to start with. I cringe every time I hear racial slurs being shouted, and yes, I still experience them from time to time aimed either at me or another passer-by, although I brush them aside with any other such rubbish these days without getting annoyed, but they still make me cringe, especially if coming from someone barely in their teenage years. Such actions by people in the public eye cannot help. Yes, community relations have come in leaps and bounds over the last few decades, but let's not kid ourselves, we still have an awful long way to go, and how can such action ever be conducive to improving them?

One thing I never quite understand is that the rocky relationship between him and Tan are no news, why could he not foresee that anything he did on his work phone will almost undoubtedly be closely scrutinised given what a vindictive character Tan is. Perhaps it was idiocy, and perhaps it was a simple oversight, regardless, it was sheer stupidity from his own part that this ever got out into the public.

I know some of you are going to say that it is a private matter between two friends and it is none of anyone else's business. I beg to differ. It may have been a private matter, and had it not come to light, no one would have been any wiser, but it is no longer so. Regardless of whether he said it in private or in public, this is now a public matter. He is fully aware that as a football manager, anything he says or does may leak out, and if he had half a brain he would have been extra careful.

I disagree vehemently that people should be disrespectful towards any others for reasons of race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc, simply because things are said in private. When these things are said and done in public, they all started by being something said and done in private. If we truly believe in equality, then we should set ourselves high standards of behaviour anywhere and tackle the root causes of prejudice. I never find the need to refer to anyone using those terms, and neither do any of my friends AFAIK. Why does anyone?

I don't think he should from now on be banished to obscurity for making this mistake, albeit a big mistake. Everyone should be given a second chance if they express genuine remorse, but only if they face up to the real reason why they felt the need to do what they did in that particular way. Only when you face up to the real reasons of what you did can you genuinely change it. No one wants a half-hearted apology trying to sweep the issue under the carpet. It changes nothing.

 

[meridian2]

Still armchair criticism though, and I'll say it again: football fans use similar phrases and words with impunity. The important thing is that he has recognised his naivety, so I don't know what right you have to play devil's advocate here.

 

[bb21]

Still armchair criticism though,

I practise what I preach.

football fans use similar phrases and words with impunity.

They should not. Just because some people get away with it does not make it alright. In addition, most football fans are not public figures so their actions are not scrutinised as closely as someone like him.

The important thing is that he has recognised his naivety, so I don't know what right you have to play devil's advocate here.

Naivety is not the only reason. There must be deeper causes than that. You clearly have not read what I said. This is exactly what I was talking about, trying to brush things under the carpet under the guise of something much less controversial.

I reserve the right to criticise any action I see as wrong.

 

[Greenback]

That depends. If the devices were personal, i.e. paid for by Mackay and whoever they were talking to then yes, you are probably right. If they were issued by the club, the club has every right to look at what you have been sending, in the same way an employer has the right to look at your web history on a work computer.

Absolutely right. I meant to bring this up earlier!

Personally, I don't think Mackay will work in British football again, perhaps an Arab or Russian club will through millions at him.

You might be right. It is something that no one on here, whether they are defending him or criticising him, is likely to have much say over.

Still armchair criticism though, and I'll say it again: football fans use similar phrases and words with impunity. The important thing is that he has recognised his naivety, so I don't know what right you have to play devil's advocate here.

There's nothing wrong with armchair criticism, and I don't really see why someone should not have an opinion just because they are sitting at home and don't work in football.

Football fans should certainly not be allowed to use these sorts of words and phrases with impunity and I am appalled that they do. It's no reason why others should get away with it.

I practise what I preach.

They should not. Just because some people get away with it does not make it alright.

I reserve the right to criticise any action I see as wrong.

Absolutely right.

 

[meridian2]

Naivety is not the only reason. There must be deeper causes than that. You clearly have not read what I said. This is exactly what I was talking about, trying to brush things under the carpet under the guise of something much less controversial.
.

You haven't given me any reason to after clearly not reading what I wrote either. You don't attack someone if you haven't been in a similar position that Mackay has been in, otherwise you're just twisting the incident according to your own personal feelings. As for 'deeper causes', don't hold back and tell us your suspicions or don't scaremonger: your choice.

 

[bb21]

You haven't given me any reason to after clearly not reading what I wrote either.

Do please tell what I am not reading.

You don't attack someone if you haven't been in a similar position that Mackay has been in, otherwise you're just twisting the incident according to your own personal feelings.

I do not need to be in his situation to know that I do not need to use those words. Why would I? I do not need to twist anything. I would not use those terms whether I were in the public eye or not.

Do please tell me what defence he has for using these words in the manner he used them.

As for 'deeper causes', don't hold back and tell us your suspicions or don't scaremonger: your choice.

You would not use those words to attack others if you do not believe it in your head, even if subconsciously. He is not 5, so he is fully aware what they mean. It would not be in his vocabulary if he truly believes it to be wrong.

 

[meridian2]

They were private conversations, but even that has been used against him.
The press have turned his only defence into another reason for him to apologise for the words he used. Had no-one got a 'sniff' he would've got away with it. That's the one technicality this all comes down to: a private incident being made into a public one all for the sake of racism. It's all a very neat package. The trouble is, his future is now extremely tenuous and clouded by this incident. No chance to defend himself, no chance to give an explanation as to why he chose those words. Just an apology and a lynching from the armchair brigade. A sacrificial lamb to maintain good PR.

 

[Butts]

It's strange that there seems to be more weight attributed to terms that are used in relation to non-white people.

Kraut ,Frog, Eytie, Yank et al seem not to cause much offence.

My belief is that this may be a generational thing that will eventually die out. People brought up being exposed to Commando Books with their derogatory portrayal of former WW2 opponents and television programmes like Love Thy Neighbour seem far more relaxed about the whole issue.

 

[ExRes]

It's strange that there seems to be more weight attributed to terms that are used in relation to non-white people.

Kraut ,Frog, Eytie, Yank et al seem not to cause much offence.

My belief is that this may be a generational thing that will eventually die out. People brought up being exposed to Commando Books with their derogatory portrayal of former WW2 opponents and television programmes like Love Thy Neighbour seem far more relaxed about the whole issue.

Some hope, the amazing language I hear from those in their teens and early twenties confirms that things will stay the same for many a year to come, quite honestly I find it insulting that we older ones constantly get the blame when it's quite clear that every generation is equally guilty, you could argue that the current 'younger generation' is worse than ever as they ignore all the failed lessons of the past

 

[bb21]

They were private conversations, but even that has been used against him.

How convenient. Prejudice expressed in private can be easily brushed under the carpet because it is supposed to be expressed in private. Why is this sentiment acceptable if expressed in private? Prejudice is prejudice and that is the root cause of the uproar.

I am not accusing him of being a racist, or homophobe, or anything like that. I do not question his integrity as a person, I do not believe that he is any of that and believe that he is a nice person who have the right morals overall. What I object to is the prejudice he showed through the use of those words in that particular manner. You do not have to be a racist to hold prejudices against some people on the ground of their race or stereotype them accordingly. It does not suddenly make him a bad person.

The press have turned his only defence into another reason for him to apologise for the words he used.

Because it is a half-hearted apology without touching on the real issues behind. It is very convenient to blame it on naivety, or stupidity, or a range of other excuses. If he had come out and admitted that he was wrong to hold such prejudice against certain groups of people, and promised to do his best to work on that, he would have got much more respect and sympathy for it. No one is perfect, how one apologises shows to a certain extent whether he understands what he did wrong. We all know that it was disrespectful, inappropriate and unacceptable. Simply acknowledging that does not tackle the question of why he did it.

Many people hold prejudices on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc, they are not all publicly shamed like that, but it does not make these things alright.

The press are ruthless, and that is all part and parcel of having a high-profile job that is constantly in the public eye. I am not defending them, because they all have their own agenda, but Mackay has to take a large chunk of responsibility for how things have turned out himself.

Had no-one got a 'sniff' he would've got away with it. That's the one technicality this all comes down to: a private incident being made into a public one all for the sake of racism. It's all a very neat package.

So, that makes it all alright does it, if it were never exposed?

See what I said about sweeping things under the carpet?

The trouble is, his future is now extremely tenuous and clouded by this incident. No chance to defend himself, no chance to give an explanation as to why he chose those words. Just an apology and a lynching from the armchair brigade. A sacrificial lamb to maintain good PR.

You can criticise the press for that, but that is his own making. As I said before, it is not as if he was not aware that his words and actions would be closely watched and scrutinised.

If he never did it then he would not have to find ways to defend himself.

It's strange that there seems to be more weight attributed to terms that are used in relation to non-white people.

No, I do not think it is right whoever prejudice is held against. Don't play that card, because it won't wash with me. I find the stereotyping of white people amongst some ethnic groups equally appalling. It does not make things alright because it is white people who are being targeted.

 

[meridian2]

There are two clear cut issues here: does using a racially prejudiced word in private make it more or less detrimental and/or does it then make it less prejudiced. You obviously profoundly disagree with the latter issue but what about the former, that of the word suddenly becoming less detrimental if used in private. I also disagree that a racist term spoken in private makes it less racist but I don't agree that it can harm a community, as the conversation is in private and can only harm the recipients of that conversation, not the community it's supposedly prejudiced against. In this case, the text messages in private and their content WOULDN'T have potentially harmed the community it's prejudiced against (Pakistani IIRC) if they had remained in private. It's only because the story was leaked that it suddenly snowballed. And I would've hoped that Mackay would've realised that using a racially prejudiced word in private doesn't make it less racist. He didn't, realised the messages were leaked, and apologised. Now hopefully I've explained to you, and others, that privacy is in no way being used as a cloak or shield here but as a key sticking point.

 

[bb21]

In answer to your first point, I think it depends on which angle you are approaching this issue from. Of course, one such comment will not suddenly undo all the good work we have put in for the last few decades. You can look just at that in isolation, and yes in that respect it probably makes no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. I am not going to say that you are wrong, because that is not an unreasonable way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it is approaching it by examining the process through which convicted criminals for race-related offences, or homophobes, evolved into the characters they became. No one is born a racist, and no one is born with prejudiced and discriminatory views. For many of them (and I dare suggest that it probably applied to all of them), it all started from seemingly harmless little things which demonstrated prejudice being accepted and even encouraged. Over a period of time this gradually snowballed. This does not mean that it would happen like that for everyone, and indeed many people hold prejudiced views, stereotypes for example, in one form or another but those who end up causing problems are only ever the exception rather than the norm, but that is inevitably where they all started from. Why should these things be acceptable if we are serious about equality simply because they are said in private? I am not saying that we should lock people up for making a homophobic comment, for example, but they should be challenged, and we should not dismiss these things lightly because the immediate impact is not obvious. Mackay is probably not going to suddenly become someone who gives hate speeches, but when we approach this issue in general, we cannot be sure that overlooking such an episode in the case of another individual is not going to plant some seeds of self-assurance over those views in their mind, which over time can all add up. Only if we as a society are serious about challenging these issues from the bottom up and working on the little details can we seriously imagine eradicating these problems completely, which is why I think we still have a long way to go.

I do not have unrealistic expectations, I do not think we could ever get rid of these problems, for a myriad of reasons, but anything we can do as a society to help move ourselves closer to that goal is good.

Mackay said the wrong thing, at the wrong time, through the wrong channels, under the wrong people, and for that I think he is unlucky, but I don't think he can have any complaint for being in the situation he is in now. (Yes, if the story had never leaked it would not have evolved into the mess it is now, but that is beside the point.)

 

[RichmondCommu]

It wasn't really a bad environment, I think there was a genuine reciprocity between people to say things. Obviously some people did mind being called something, so you wouldn't do it to them; and of course we all grew up understanding that you don't judge or hate a person based on stuff like sexuality or race. That's the way it went.

How do you know that the Asian children who appeared to laugh off being called a Paki were not hurting inside and going home feeling upset?

Regarding your second point, that is what I believe. So long as Mackay, or indeed anyone else, does not act or incite in reality these opinions (e.g. not playing an African player because he is black) then it is the business of himself and the recipient, and himself and the recipient alone what he says. What other people say of you in private or outwith your authority is none of your business. If people on here PM each other saying 'I f***ing hate MidnightFlyer, the Hun / Proddy / Caucasian ******' then I don't have a problem with that: it would only be if they physically instigated violence or practiced that hate that it becomes an issue.

So what you're saying is that it's perfectly fine for individuals to racially abuse my wife by calling her a Paki bitch as long as they don't say it to her face? How do you know that Malky MacKay wouldn't take his views on to the street? Who's to say that he wouldn't avoid playing a black player who was in form and fit to play? Such views are very rarely in isolation because that is human nature. Who's to say that his ilk are not members of the BNP?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think people are far to sensitive today with regard to a lot of the issues we have been discussing.

I suppose this is a sign of progress to some, as people in less developed societies have more urgent matters to be anxious about - ie where their next meal is coming from is of greater importance than some affected slight.

One example of this is the hysteria generated by anyone dressing up in second world war German uniforms at a fancy dress party. Attilla the Hun is seemingly perfectly acceptable despite his predilection to genocide.

So are you suggesting that Asians should take racial abuse on the chin because poor souls in another part of the world are suffering from abject poverty? Perhaps I should remind my wife of this the next time someone calls her a Paki bitch.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

How do you know that the Asian children who appeared to laugh off being called a Paki were not hurting inside and going home feeling upset?

Believe you me, the people who didn't mind it being called a P*ki (indeed some encouraged it almost as a term of endearment!) weren't the sort who would go home crying to mum and dad because they were upset. The people at my school who were like that were the ones you didn't say it to, and vice versa.

So what you're saying is that it's perfectly fine for individuals to racially abuse my wife by calling her a Paki bitch as long as they don't say it to her face? How do you know that Malky MacKay wouldn't take his views on to the street? Who's to say that he wouldn't avoid playing a black player who was in form and fit to play? Such views are very rarely in isolation because that is human nature. Who's to say that his ilk are not members of the BNP?

What I am saying is what they say about your wife, you, me, the bloke down the street, the milkman, whoever between themselves is their opinion and their freedom of expression to do so, so long as they do not act upon it, or incite others to. This is getting way out of hand no re: Mackay, the concept of innocent until proven guilty seems to have gone out of the window. Just because he sent a couple of dodgy texts to a mate he's now potentially in the BNP? What about the KKK? Any other white supremacist groups you want to baselessly accuse him of being a member of?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Football fans get away with using the above word with impunity.

Are you not aware of the "Kick It Out" campaign? I've had a season ticket at Derby County for many years and I would not take my wife to matches if I thought she would be racially abused. I should also add here that on several occasions I have informed the club of racist incidents from my fellow Rams fans. Their notable absence from their seats having been banned from the stadium show's that racism in the stands is being taken seriously. However, the MacKay incident shows that football still has much work to do.

This is all about saving face, not about being racist/sexist/homophobic etc.

The content of a private message is not for public interest, debunking many people's arguments on here that the nature of the message is immaterial.

In this case, the media deemed it to be of public interest, hence the publication of the story and the apologising later.

People are demonising a man for saying sorry publicly, something which they do with great aplomb from their comfy armchairs having never and probably never will experience the intense pressure of being under the media spotlight.

Given that Malky McKay and Ian Moody were using company phones Cardiff City had every right to analyze their text messages and pass their findings on to the FA. Why shouldn't the media be informed of this? It's worth noting that Malky MacKay knew about this long before the media received this information and yet he chose to not say anything. In other words he hoped that he would get away with it.

And as for pressure in football, don't be so ridiculous. Pressure is working in A & E or being involved in front line policing. Pressure is keeping a roof over your head whilst struggling to pay your mortgage. Pressure is keeping your children fed and clothed when money is running low.

I've had jobs with far more responsibility than Malky MacKay has ever had and yet I never chose to let off steam by sending racist text messages. Instead I would go for a run, visit the gym or preferably play competitive five a side on a Thursday. Please do not try and justify what Malky Mackay has done because you are simply coming across as being at best naive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Believe you me, the people who didn't mind it being called a P*ki (indeed some encouraged it almost as a term of endearment!) weren't the sort who would go home crying to mum and dad because they were upset. The people at my school who were like that were the ones you didn't say it to, and vice versa.



What I am saying is what they say about your wife, you, me, the bloke down the street, the milkman, whoever between themselves is their opinion and their freedom of expression to do so, so long as they do not act upon it, or incite others to. This is getting way out of hand no re: Mackay, the concept of innocent until proven guilty seems to have gone out of the window. Just because he sent a couple of dodgy texts to a mate he's now potentially in the BNP? What about the KKK? Any other white supremacist groups you want to baselessly accuse him of being a member of?

So racist comments between two individuals is perfectly fine and they shouldn't be discouraged through education? How do you know that they woUldn't take it further? What evidence do you have to prove this?

Malky MacKay is guilty because he has admitted his guilt! Why is this getting out of hand? Is it getting out of hand because you are out of your depth? Is it getting out of hand because you are hearing the uncomfortable truth? What evidence do you have to suggest that Malky MacKay is not racist and doesn't hate blacks, Jews, and Asians? How do you know that he wouldn't join the BNP? The KKK don't have a presence in the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Believe you me, the people who didn't mind it being called a P*ki (indeed some encouraged it almost as a term of endearment!) weren't the sort who would go home crying to mum and dad because they were upset. The people at my school who were like that were the ones you didn't say it to, and vice versa.

Why the *? Why not say the word Paki? Does it make you uncomfortable saying the word Paki?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So racist comments between two individuals is perfectly fine and they shouldn't be discouraged through education? How do you know that they woUldn't take it further? What evidence do you have to prove this?

Malky MacKay is guilty because he has admitted his guilt! Why is this getting out of hand? Is it getting out of hand because you are out of your depth? Is it getting out of hand because you are hearing the uncomfortable truth? What evidence do you have to suggest that Malky MacKay is not racist and doesn't hate blacks, Jews, and Asians? How do you know that he wouldn't join the BNP? The KKK don't have a presence in the UK.

No, obviously kids should be taught that you don't judge or discriminate or select on grounds of age, race, gender, sexuality, weight, whatever. Like I said, once they begin to act upon such opinions is when it becomes a problem. It is bad when you go around calling people a black b*stard or white n*gger or whatever, or beat up someone for being gay; but that is a world apart from sharing a dodgy joke or whatever by text to your mate. Can I ask how many people you think (as a %) that have ever sent or laughed at a comment based on someone's race actually have a problem with it? Just about everyone of my peers I can think of has done one of those at some point over the years, and guess what, none of them have ever walked through town and called an Asian a P*ki or an Irishman a Tim or whatever. They're two totally different matters.

Has Mackay admitted being a racist (as in having a burning dislike of blacks / Jews / gays etc) or just said sorry that he made a stupid remark in poor taste? Once again two totally different matters! 'Uncomfortable truth'? Get real mate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why the *? Why not say the word Paki? Does it make you uncomfortable saying the word Paki?

Not at all, I'd merrily type it out; it's just I am unaware of the staff's stance on the matter and would not wish to be reprimanded if they judged it unacceptable. I do similar for words like pr*ck, tw*t etc should I ever feel the need to use them!

 

[RichmondCommu]

No, obviously kids should be taught that you don't judge or discriminate or select on grounds of age, race, gender, sexuality, weight, whatever. Like I said, once they begin to act upon such opinions is when it becomes a problem. It is bad when you go around calling people a black b*stard or white n*gger or whatever, or beat up someone for being gay; but that is a world apart from sharing a dodgy joke or whatever by text to your mate. Can I ask how many people you think (as a %) that have ever sent or laughed at a comment based on someone's race actually have a problem with it? Just about everyone of my peers I can think of has done one of those at some point over the years, and guess what, none of them have ever walked through town and called an Asian a P*ki or an Irishman a Tim or whatever. They're two totally different matters.

Why would anybody chose to laugh at a racist joke? Why would anybody choose to send a racist joke? What's funny about a racist joke? If you think it's perfectly acceptable for your friends and acquaintances to send and laugh at racist jokes then good for you.

Has Mackay admitted being a racist (as in having a burning dislike of blacks / Jews / gays etc) or just said sorry that he made a stupid remark in poor taste? Once again two totally different matters! 'Uncomfortable truth'? Get real mate.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas so by the same token Malky MacKay will never admit that he is a racist. If he laughs and giggles at a racist joke the chances are that he is a racist. Have you ever laughed at a racist joke? Do you think it's acceptable to at racist abuse directed towards my wife? I'm getting real because of the racist abuse that my wife has received. Why do you have a problem with me getting real over this?

Not at all, I'd merrily type it out; it's just I am unaware of the staff's stance on the matter and would not wish to be reprimanded if they judged it unacceptable. I do similar for words like pr*ck, tw*t etc should I ever feel the need to use them!

Ok I'm able to say the word Paki on this forum so why do you think that you would be prevented from doing the same? After all I've not been hauled up over it. How about the word ******?

 

[richw]

Ok I'm able to say the word Paki on this forum so why do you think that you would be prevented from doing the same? After all I've not been hauled up over it. How about the word ******?

This is a choice by MidnightFlyer though as based on your posts that such words are offensive they shouldn't be used on the forum. However based on other posters opinions they are perfectly acceptable for use. Forum rules I believe have something about the use of offensive language.
On one hand you are saying these words are offensive in any context, yet you then use them in your posts suggesting that in fact they are not offensive.

Personally such language does not offend me, nor cause me distress etc. however different people have different levels of sensitivity and use of language in private conversations should be used based on the person(s) your speaking with.

In my job, I come across customers who habitually put swear words in every other sentence. It doesn't bother me, but I have colleagues who won't deal with a customer using such language. Yes the customer should be more careful but it comes down to the people in the conversation and how they react to use of different language.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why would anybody chose to laugh at a racist joke? Why would anybody choose to send a racist joke? What's funny about a racist joke? If you think it's perfectly acceptable for your friends and acquaintances to send and laugh at racist jokes then good for you.

Because a joke is a proposition. It isn't real. It's like saying 'What about this?', 'What about that?'. I will laugh at jokes made about stereotypes of a certain group so long as it isn't malicious, I don't think that makes me a bad person and it certainly doesn't make me racist - in real life, in real situations I could not care less about someone's race, gender, whatever; it matters to me as much as it matters where they shop at. It's irrelevant what someone is and it is absolutely categorically wrong to attack someone based on a characteristic or demographic. I couldn't care less.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas so by the same token Malky MacKay will never admit that he is a racist. If he laughs and giggles at a racist joke the chances are that he is a racist. Have you ever laughed at a racist joke? Do you think it's acceptable to at racist abuse directed towards my wife? I'm getting real because of the racist abuse that my wife has received. Why do you have a problem with me getting real over this?

So then he's guilty until proven innocent? Like I said above I will never laugh at a joke that is either malicious or about one specific person as the former is detestable and the latter is grossly unfair. I am sorry to hear your wife has received abuse based on her background and I would wholeheartedly agree that if it is being said to her directly and is affecting her everyday affairs then that is unacceptable and the perpetrators should be reprimanded.

Ok I'm able to say the word Paki on this forum so why do you think that you would be prevented from doing the same? After all I've not been hauled up over it. How about the word ******?

I prefer not to out of respect for someone who would find it offensive or would prefer not to see such language on what is a fairly formal forum.

 

[RichmondCommu]

This is a choice by MidnightFlyer though as based on your posts that such words are offensive they shouldn't be used on the forum. However based on other posters opinions they are perfectly acceptable for use. Forum rules I believe have something about the use of offensive language.
On one hand you are saying these words are offensive in any context, yet you then use them in your posts suggesting that in fact they are not offensive.

Personally such language does not offend me, nor cause me distress etc. however different people have different levels of sensitivity and use of language in private conversations should be used based on the person(s) your speaking with.

In my job, I come across customers who habitually put swear words in every other sentence. It doesn't bother me, but I have colleagues who won't deal with a customer using such language. Yes the customer should be more careful but it comes down to the people in the conversation and how they react to use of different language.

Yes I'm painfully aware that the word Paki is offensive but it's not right to brush it under the carpet and hope that it doesn't exist. The words Paki or ****** need to be challenged, not changed with a * in order to ease forum members concious.

 

[richw]

Yes I'm painfully aware that the word Paki is offensive but it's not right to brush it under the carpet and hope that it doesn't exist. The words Paki or ****** need to be challenged, not changed with a * in order to ease forum members concious.

Are these words any different to calling a welsh person Taff or a Scottish person Jock?
*genuine question as to me they are the same category of wording yet seem acceptable in some groups and not others.

Several black African lads I know openly call each other "******", why is it suddenly the race card played when a white person addresses them as such?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Because a joke is a proposition. It isn't real. It's like saying 'What about this?', 'What about that?'. I will laugh at jokes made about stereotypes of a certain group so long as it isn't malicious, I don't think that makes me a bad person and it certainly doesn't make me racist - in real life, in real situations I could not care less about someone's race, gender, whatever; it matters to me as much as it matters where they shop at. It's irrelevant what someone is and it is absolutely categorically wrong to attack someone based on a characteristic or demographic. I couldn't care less.

So when does a racist joke stop or start being malicious? Whats the cut off point? If you chose to laugh at a racist joke what is there to suggest that you are not a racist? How can someone demonstrate to me that they are not a racist if they laugh at a racist joke?

So then he's guilty until proven innocent? Like I said above I will never laugh at a joke that is either malicious or about one specific person as the former is detestable and the latter is grossly unfair. I am sorry to hear your wife has received abuse based on her background and I would wholeheartedly agree that if it is being said to her directly and is affecting her everyday affairs then that is unacceptable and the perpetrators should be reprimanded.

And yet you think it's perfectly acceptable to tell a racist joke about my wife providing that she doesn't get to hear about it? How is Malky MacKay going to be proved innocent?

I prefer not to out of respect for someone who would find it offensive or would prefer not to see such language on what is a fairly formal forum.

I've been married to my beloved wife for over 20 years and I find the word Paki deeply offensive but I'm prepared to high light the problem of racism by using the work Paki. If anyone is going to be offended it's me and the likes of Clip. If you believe the word Paki to be offensive let's stop it being used in racist jokes and at school / college.
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Are these words any different to calling a welsh person Taff or a Scottish person Jock?
*genuine question as to me they are the same category of wording yet seem acceptable in some groups and not others.

Several black African lads I know openly call each other "******", why is it suddenly the race card played when a white person addresses them as such?

Yes the terms Taff or Jock are very different to the words Paki or ******. And for the record I think it's deplorable that black youths continue to refer to themselves as being Niggers as it is not doing themselves any favours.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So when does a racist joke stop or start being malicious? Whats the cut off point? If you chose to laugh at a racist joke what is there to suggest that you are not a racist? How can someone demonstrate to me that they are not a racist if they laugh at a racist joke?

And yet you think it's perfectly acceptable to tell a racist joke about my wife providing that she doesn't get to hear about it? How is Malky MacKay going to be proved innocent?

I've been married to my beloved wife for over 20 years and I find the word Paki deeply offensive but I'm prepared to high light the problem of racism by using the work Paki. If anyone is going to be offended it's me and the likes of Clip. If you believe the word Paki to be offensive let's stop it being used in racist jokes and at school / college.

When it genuinely incites violence or hate, e.g. a stereotypical joke about an Asian owning a cornershop is relatively harmless, certainly if isn't said publicly or to one, however a 'joke' that has a punchline like 'We should kill all the n*ggers' does incite violence and hate and is therefore unacceptable. I can't believe I am now being accused of racism, to base such a vile claim on me admitting to laughing at stereotype jokes is both shallow and downright wrong frankly. Go PM half the staff on here; ask a lot of the regulars I know well, some of whom are very good friends. Go and ask them if in all the years they have known me and talked with me if I have ever made a racist or sexist comment. The answer will be no. In all honesty don't bother, if you're so quick to judge when you don't even know who I am then I don't care an iota for your opinion of me, as wrong and misguided as it is.

Like I said jokes 'about your wife' specifically are grossly unfair and I would agree with you that that is wrong and needs to be dealt with.

I do believe the word P*ki to be offensive, and believe many others do too - as I said right at the start of this discussion, it would only ever be used if the person concerned expressed permission. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've ever used the word and I certainly wouldn't say it nowadays come what may, given the way my social, political and philosophical outlook on life has changed over the years; but similarly I don't mind people calling me things if I say I don't mind.

 

[richw]

Yes the terms Taff or Jock are very different to the words Paki or ******.

In what way are they different? There was an incident about a welsh police officer working in Gloucester arrested someone for calling him a Taff fairly recently in the paper. I believe it went as far as court for some kind of racial offence. Clearly that welsh officer took offence to a term aimed at people of his nationality.

Yes I realise that was an isolated case, but still a term aimed at a person of a set nationality.

A friend of a friend was recently refused a visa for Australia, because when asked if he had a criminal record he responded trying to be funny that he didn't know they still required a criminal record to get in. They refused his visa on grounds of a racist comment made to the immigration officer.

I couldn't help but laugh when I was told that.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There was an interesting thing on TV a month or two back that touched upon racist jokes. Can't remember the details or even what the programme was called now. But one of the things mentioned was that racist jokes essentially lead to racists thinking their views are acceptable and even push them to be even more racist. So what may seem like a harmless joke to me or you, may actually be making another person more racist to the point that they would discriminate or do something even worse.

 

[RichmondCommu]

When it genuinely incites violence or hate, e.g. a stereotypical joke about an Asian owning a cornershop is relatively harmless, certainly if isn't said publicly or to one, however a 'joke' that has a punchline like 'We should kill all the n*ggers' does incite violence and hate and is therefore unacceptable. I can't believe I am now being accused of racism, to base such a vile claim on me admitting to laughing at stereotype jokes is both shallow and downright wrong frankly. Go PM half the staff on here; ask a lot of the regulars I know well, some of whom are very good friends. Go and ask them if in all the years they have known me and talked with me if I have ever made a racist or sexist comment. The answer will be no. In all honesty don't bother, if you're so quick to judge when you don't even know who I am then I don't care an iota for your opinion of me, as wrong and misguided as it is.

Like I said jokes 'about your wife' specifically are grossly unfair and I would agree with you that that is wrong and needs to be dealt with.

I do believe the word P*ki to be offensive, and believe many others do too - as I said right at the start of this discussion, it would only ever be used if the person concerned expressed permission. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've ever used the word and I certainly wouldn't say it nowadays come what may, given the way my social, political and philosophical outlook on life has changed over the years; but similarly I don't mind people calling me things if I say I don't mind.

I'm curious to know why you think it's possible to make a joke out of Asians and local convenience stores. Perhaps you would like to share the joke with me? I find it interesting that two moderaters have posted on here and not supported you, despite what you say about your relationship with forum staff.

I've been in love with a Asian girl for many years and yet I'm prepared to use the word Paki despite how much it upsets me. I would argue that you are not prepared to use the word Paki because it makes you feel uncomfortable. I do not believe that you are racist but I think it's a real shame that you try and justify the racist opinions of others. A racist joke is never acceptable no matter what the context is or who hears it.

Just out of interest, what changed your opinion on using the word Paki?
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In what way are they different? There was an incident about a welsh police officer working in Gloucester arrested someone for calling him a Taff fairly recently in the paper. I believe it went as far as court for some kind of racial offence. Clearly that welsh officer took offence to a term aimed at people of his nationality.

Given that my wife is a serving police officer in the Met I would suggest that the word Taff wasn't the only word that was said.

A friend of a friend was recently refused a visa for Australia, because when asked if he had a criminal record he responded trying to be funny that he didn't know they still required a criminal record to get in. They refused his visa on grounds of a racist comment made to the immigration officer.

I couldn't help but laugh when I was told that.

I spent a year in Australia when I was a young man and have travelled widely. I would suggest that it would be unadvisable to crack jokes at immigration control when trying to enter a country. I believe it's called common sense.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm curious to know why you think it's possible to make a joke out of Asians and local convenience stores. Perhaps you would like to share the joke with me? I find it interesting that two moderaters have posted on here and not supported you, despite what you say about your relationship with forum staff.

I've been in love with a Asian girl for many years and yet I'm prepared to use the word Paki despite how much it upsets me. I would argue that you are not prepared to use the word Paki because it makes you feel uncomfortable. I do not believe that you are racist but I think it's a real shame that you try and justify the racist opinions of others. A racist joke is never acceptable no matter what the context is or who hears it.

Just out of interest, what changed your opinion on using the word Paki?

I can't give you one off-hand, I'm sure there'll be one about though. I wasn't sing that as a specific example, just as some form of context that may be used for a joke. There is a difference staff not agreeing with me on here and them thinking whether or not I am racist. Some of them I would consider friends but that doesn't mean to say I would expect them to agree with me on a given topic Just because I don't agree with someone on something else doesn't make that person the extreme of what I am arguing against.

I do not justify racism, it is abhorrent and has no place in any civilised state, however I would argue about different forms of racism: the one that leads people to go out and attacked an Asian, or a Jew, or whoever else for me is a lot more real an issue and much more of a concern than sharing a joking word with your mate down the pub. I have no qualms typing the word out - I would on some other forums I frequent: it's just as I have said before I find this place more civilised and respectable than those places, hence I will change my language accordingly. I 'justify' it because I believe in freedom of speech wholeheartedly, no ifs, no buts. It is only when this speech turns to actions or indoctrination that is when it needs to be seriously halted.

Regarding your final point, probably just my whole outlook on life has changed over the past few years, certainly within the last one. That affected everything from whether or not I would call an Asian a P*ki to whether or not I support the death penalty!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I can't give you one off-hand, I'm sure there'll be one about though. I wasn't sing that as a specific example, just as some form of context that may be used for a joke. There is a difference staff not agreeing with me on here and them thinking whether or not I am racist. Some of them I would consider friends but that doesn't mean to say I would expect them to agree with me on a given topic Just because I don't agree with someone on something else doesn't make that person the extreme of what I am arguing against.

I do not justify racism, it is abhorrent and has no place in any civilised state, however I would argue about different forms of racism: the one that leads people to go out and attacked an Asian, or a Jew, or whoever else for me is a lot more real an issue and much more of a concern than sharing a joking word with your mate down the pub. I have no qualms typing the word out - I would on some other forums I frequent: it's just as I have said before I find this place more civilised and respectable than those places, hence I will change my language accordingly. I 'justify' it because I believe in freedom of speech wholeheartedly, no ifs, no buts. It is only when this speech turns to actions or indoctrination that is when it needs to be seriously halted.

Regarding your final point, probably just my whole outlook on life has changed over the past few years, certainly within the last one. That affected everything from whether or not I would call an Asian a P*ki to whether or not I support the death penalty!

So are you suggesting that I'm uncivilised or not respectable by using the work Paki? I don't understand why you would share a joke with your friends which makes reference to the words Paki etc. I've asked you several times to explain why jokes which have a racial element are funny and yet you have not been able to do so. Why is one form of racism more acceptable than another?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So are you suggesting that I'm uncivilised or not respectable by using the work Paki? I don't understand why you would share a joke with your friends which makes reference to the words Paki etc. I've asked you several times to explain why jokes which have a racial element are funny and yet you have not been able to do so. Why is one form of racism more acceptable than another?

Not at all, it's entirely your prerogative and your decision which words you use or how you use them, I couldn't care less, it's not my business to judge that.

Because it's a joke. It's a proposition. It isn't real. It's entirely subjective. I also don't believe I have ever stated one form of racism is more acceptable than the other?

Anyway, I'm leaving this here, I'm just repeating myself and I feel like I have made all the points and justification I need to make.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Not at all, it's entirely your prerogative and your decision which words you use or how you use them, I couldn't care less, it's not my business to judge that.

Because it's a joke. It's a proposition. It isn't real. It's entirely subjective. I also don't believe I have ever stated one form of racism is more acceptable than the other?

Anyway, I'm leaving this here, I'm just repeating myself and I feel like I have made all the points and justification I need to make.

But real or not, regardless of whether it's subjective why would you share a joke that concerns race? What's funny about joke that has race at the heart of it?