Man Stabbed To Death on Nottingham Tram

[duncanp]

This is somewhat worrying, given the recent stabbings in Nottingham.

Police are not looknig for anyone else in connection with the incident.

Whilst it is probably not appropriate to discuss the specifics of this case, can anything realistically be done to improve security on buses, trams and trains, given that you won't be able to search everyone before boarding.

Yes, you can have security patrols, but it is impossible for them to be everywhere.

Murder probe launched after man stabbed on Nottingham tram

Police say a man in his 30s was attacked as the tram neared a stop in Nottingham.

www.bbc.co.uk

Murder probe launched after man stabbed on Nottingham tram​

A murder investigation has been launched after a man was stabbed to death on a tram in Nottingham.
Police were called to Highbury Vale tram stop in Basford shortly after 11:10 BST on Monday.
Officers said a man in his 30s had been attacked as the tram neared the stop and, despite the efforts of emergency services, was pronounced dead.
Another man was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder and is being held in custody.
A cordon remains in place while investigations continue.

Ch Con Kate Meynell, of Nottinghamshire Police, said: "What happened at Highbury Vale this morning is tragic and has resulted in the death of a man in his 30s.
"We know there were other passengers on board at the time and understand how frightening this must have been for anyone who saw what happened.
"Our officers were at the scene quickly and detained a suspect. He remains in police custody.
"This was an isolated incident and we are not looking for anyone else in connection with what happened this morning."
Officers have urged witnesses to contact them.
Nottingham Express Transit (NET) said it had restarted services between Wilkinson Street and Phoenix Park, but those between Wilkinson Street and Bulwell were still suspended

 

[edwin_m]

This is somewhat worrying, given the recent stabbings in Nottingham.

Police are not looknig for anyone else in connection with the incident.

Whilst it is probably not appropriate to discuss the specifics of this case, can anything realistically be done to improve security on buses, trams and trains, given that you won't be able to search everyone before boarding.

Yes, you can have security patrols, but it is impossible for them to be everywhere.

Murder probe launched after man stabbed on Nottingham tram

Police say a man in his 30s was attacked as the tram neared a stop in Nottingham.

www.bbc.co.uk

In general terms one way to reduce crime on public transport is to make sure it is well-used so there are always other people around. An intrusive security presence can just make people feel threatened, and I've seen a suggestion on a US blog that announcements warning of pickpockets just make passengers put a hand to their wallet/purse to confirm it's still there, just giving any potential pickpocket a useful pointer.

From the above, this happened in daytime and the alleged perpetrator was apprehended quickly, so it may not be typical of the type of incident that people are more afraid of.

 

[Jozhua]

Absolutely shocking.

This is the second time there has been significant disruption in the past couple of weeks on the tram network due to fatal stabbings alone.

This happened very close to home for me and I witnessed the cleanup scene travelling home on the tram this afternoon.

The state of affairs in Nottingham at present is disappointing, upsetting and scary. What's worse is that it feels there is a complete lack of police resources to deal with it.

A cursory response to the earlier point. No, busy trams do not stop antisocial or violent behaviour. People are scared to intervene - as they should be given the number of people carrying weapons on the tram. The current status quo is one of limited or no security and violent/antisocial behaviour is rife. Overdue for intervention from the BTP and local police to discourage this behaviour from continuing.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely shocking.

This is the second time there has been significant disruption in the past couple of weeks on the tram network due to fatal stabbings alone.

This happened very close to home for me and I witnessed the cleanup scene travelling home on the tram this afternoon.

The state of affairs in Nottingham at present is disappointing, upsetting and scary. What's worse is that it feels there is a complete lack of police resources to deal with it.

A cursory response to the earlier point. No, busy trams do not stop antisocial or violent behaviour. People are scared to intervene - as they should be given the number of people carrying weapons on the tram. The current status quo is one of limited or no security and violent/antisocial behaviour is rife. Overdue for intervention from the BTP and local police to discourage this behaviour from continuing.

It does seem to be the case that the provincial transport systems are experiencing issues. Tyne & Wear Metro and Manchester Metrolink both have issues for sure (though fortunately this seems to revolve more around mid-level antisocial behaviour rather than outright violence). It’s all very depressing, these are supposed to be our great cities.

 

[Jozhua]

It does seem to be the case that the provincial transport systems are experiencing issues. Tyne & Wear Metro and Manchester Metrolink both have issues for sure (though fortunately this seems to revolve more around mid-level antisocial behaviour rather than outright violence). It’s all very depressing, these are supposed to be our great cities.

Completely agree - these systems face challenges unfortunately for the very things that make them so useful. They serve local journeys very well, serving a mixture of low and high income neighborhoods.

However, alongside DOO operation, they can easily become a magnet for ASB/violent crime.

I think it would be worthwhile dedicating BTP and local police to these systems to try and deter would be criminals from riding. Additionally, heavier enforcement of fare payment would work well, with those who are abusive to staff/passengers being reported to police by default and CCTV of the incident being provided.

 

[BJames]

I've always felt reasonably safe on NET so this is concerning to see - although my journeys, formerly regular but recently less so, were usually confined to Royal Centre - University Boulevard and smaller hops in between, and on rare occasions out as far as Beeston Centre. Is it the case that things have always been a little more sketchy further north of the city?

In addition Nottingham trams have quite high presence of inspectors on the tram I've found (again, unless they sort of centre around the zones I usually travel in, which wouldn't surprise me given the high student population), so this has contributed to feeling of safety.

Sad to see a second tragic incident in Nottingham in less than two weeks.

 

[railfan99]

I think it would be worthwhile dedicating BTP and local police to these systems to try and deter would be criminals from riding. Additionally, heavier enforcement of fare payment would work well, with those who are abusive to staff/passengers being reported to police by default and CCTV of the incident being provided.

In my Australian state (hardly a beacon for rest of the world), police may place a public notice in newspapers and then between specified times obtain the power to search anyone, at say a railway station or tram stop to establish if they're carrying weapons like knives, machetes and so on.

While in a democracy, I don't like the suspension of the normal rule of law that police must have a 'reasonable suspicion' that 'an offence has been committed' in order to search, is this power (however limited) available for UK police?

(For anyone who doesn't know, as a former colony, Australia employs the Westminster system inherited from a terrific nation c.17,000 kilometres away).

I will be staying for three nights in Nottingham on a September 2023-commencing Eurailpass. Given most such 'incidents' tend to be re individuals who already know one another, while not ideal, it doesn't concern me. One can be unlucky but the chance is small and never deters me from travelling on mass transit (except perhaps in South Africa, the only nation where a similarly well travelled friend had a knife put to his throat).

 

[Jozhua]

I've always felt reasonably safe on NET so this is concerning to see - although my journeys, formerly regular but recently less so, were usually confined to Royal Centre - University Boulevard and smaller hops in between, and on rare occasions out as far as Beeston Centre. Is it the case that things have always been a little more sketchy further north of the city?

In addition Nottingham trams have quite high presence of inspectors on the tram I've found (again, unless they sort of centre around the zones I usually travel in, which wouldn't surprise me given the high student population), so this has contributed to feeling of safety.

Sad to see a second tragic incident in Nottingham in less than two weeks.

Completely correct that things are more sketchy north of the city. The tram tends to reflect the neighborhoods it travels through.

That said, even for us who call the north home (it's cheap), the 'characters' on the tram can be a deterrent. For me, I don't really have a choice in the matter, as I don't drive.

In my Australian state (hardly a beacon for rest of the world), police may place a public notice in newspapers and then between specified times obtain the power to search anyone, at say a railway station or tram stop to establish if they're carrying weapons like knives, machetes and so on.

While in a democracy, I don't like the suspension of the normal rule of law that police must have a 'reasonable suspicion' that 'an offence has been committed' in order to search, is this power (however limited) available for UK police?

(For anyone who doesn't know, as a former colony, Australia employs the Westminster system inherited from a terrific nation c.17,000 kilometres away).

I will be staying for three nights in Nottingham on a September 2023-commencing Eurailpass. Given most such 'incidents' tend to be re individuals who already know one another, while not ideal, it doesn't concern me. One can be unlucky but the chance is small and never deters me from travelling on mass transit (except perhaps in South Africa, the only nation where a similarly well travelled friend had a knife put to his throat).

Yeah the UK is much better than South Africa - you may see some sights, but it is unlikely you will get any trouble, especially in the daytime (this incident aside).

 

[greyman42]

In my Australian state (hardly a beacon for rest of the world), police may place a public notice in newspapers and then between specified times obtain the power to search anyone, at say a railway station or tram stop to establish if they're carrying weapons like knives, machetes and so on.

Sounds like a good idea.

 

[duncanp]

Sounds like a good idea.

I wonder if that is a good idea though.

If you publish in advance that you are going to be searching people for knives at a particular location, surely all that will happen is that those who are carrying knives will either avoid that location or stop carrying knives at that location for the period of the search.

 

[greyman42]

I wonder if that is a good idea though.

If you publish in advance that you are going to be searching people for knives at a particular location, surely all that will happen is that those who are carrying knives will either avoid that location or stop carrying knives at that location for the period of the search.

Good point. Just do the searches without any warning.

 

[185]

Manchester Metrolink do a moving gateway operation, a joint revenue and knife arch or dog operation, police and inspectors.

The key is to move it at random every half hour or so, to thwart those on social media tipping others off about it's location.

It's so successful, one senior officer tried to put a stop to them as she claimed it was distorting crime figures. Believe she's doing something insignificant like looking after the property store nowadays.

 

[Mojo]

Overdue for intervention from the BTP and local police to discourage this behaviour from continuing.

BTP aren't responsible for policing the Tramway in Nottingham, this is done by Nottinghamshire Police.

 

[LLivery]

I've always felt reasonably safe on NET so this is concerning to see - although my journeys, formerly regular but recently less so, were usually confined to Royal Centre - University Boulevard and smaller hops in between, and on rare occasions out as far as Beeston Centre. Is it the case that things have always been a little more sketchy further north of the city?

In addition Nottingham trams have quite high presence of inspectors on the tram I've found (again, unless they sort of centre around the zones I usually travel in, which wouldn't surprise me given the high student population), so this has contributed to feeling of safety.

Sad to see a second tragic incident in Nottingham in less than two weeks.

It also felt quite safe on the Clifton branch too during the time I spent around there and yes, lots of inspectors!

I do remember one teenage lad calling a girl around his age all sorts of things during a heated shouting match, but that was the only thing I saw in 2 years of very regular usage. Never used the tram often beyond Hyson Green, but again, never saw anything concerning.

I do hate the negativity surrounding Nottingham recently, I'm very fond of the city. Saying that, for 2 of the 4 years I lived in Rushcliffe rather than the official City...

 

[BJames]

It also felt quite safe on the Clifton branch too during the time I spent around there and yes, lots of inspectors!

I do remember one teenage lad calling a girl around his age all sorts of things during a heated shouting match, but that was the only thing I saw in 2 years of very regular usage. Never used the tram often beyond Hyson Green, but again, never saw anything concerning.

I do hate the negativity surrounding Nottingham recently, I'm very fond of the city. Saying that, for 2 of the 4 years I lived in Rushcliffe rather than the official City...

It is a shame, me too - and I'm leaving in the next month, it's a shame to have this feeling hanging over a little bit. Hopefully things pick up soon. Regarding Clifton branch I have only used it a couple of times but agreed, didn't feel particularly more on edge than usual.

 

[railfan99]

I wonder if that is a good idea though.

If you publish in advance that you are going to be searching people for knives at a particular location, surely all that will happen is that those who are carrying knives will either avoid that location or stop carrying knives at that location for the period of the search.

Crims don't read the papers, generally. And especially not if a 'public notice' is buried towards the back of a paper in the 'classifieds' section.

 

[Jozhua]

Manchester Metrolink do a moving gateway operation, a joint revenue and knife arch or dog operation, police and inspectors.

The key is to move it at random every half hour or so, to thwart those on social media tipping others off about it's location.

It's so successful, one senior officer tried to put a stop to them as she claimed it was distorting crime figures. Believe she's doing something insignificant like looking after the property store nowadays.

It would be worth doing this yes - it would discourage would be criminals from riding the system and probably get a lot of knifes off the streets in the meantime.

It also felt quite safe on the Clifton branch too during the time I spent around there and yes, lots of inspectors!

I do remember one teenage lad calling a girl around his age all sorts of things during a heated shouting match, but that was the only thing I saw in 2 years of very regular usage. Never used the tram often beyond Hyson Green, but again, never saw anything concerning.

I do hate the negativity surrounding Nottingham recently, I'm very fond of the city. Saying that, for 2 of the 4 years I lived in Rushcliffe rather than the official City...

Clifton branch is much better from what I can tell - there are some characters around Clifton, but nothing quite as bad as north of the city centre.

Yeah, Rushcliffe is going to be much nicer than the other inner city suburbs, especially north of the city centre. I live in Basford, which is pretty bad tbh.

 

[railfan99]

Manchester Metrolink do a moving gateway operation, a joint revenue and knife arch or dog operation, police and inspectors.

What does 'arch' mean in this context?

 

[185]

Walk-through Metal Detector / police speak a KEC - Knife Enabled Crime operation.

It is battery powered & flat-packs into a big briefcase.

 

[duncanp]

What does 'arch' mean in this context?

It is an arch with a metal detector that you go through, similar to those at airport security.

If you do a Google Search on "...knife arch...", you will find various articles and pictures.

 

[DarloRich]

In my Australian state (hardly a beacon for rest of the world), police may place a public notice in newspapers and then between specified times obtain the power to search anyone, at say a railway station or tram stop to establish if they're carrying weapons like knives, machetes and so on.

I wonder if that is a good idea though.

If you publish in advance that you are going to be searching people for knives at a particular location, surely all that will happen is that those who are carrying knives will either avoid that location or stop carrying knives at that location for the period of the search.

The police in the UK have similar powers. They can introduce a Section 60 order - A Section 60 is a power given by an Inspector or above which allows police officers to stop and search anyone in a specific area without needing to have reasonable grounds. It is granted under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994.

one was issued yesterday in Milton Keynes after a man was reported to police to be carrying an offensive weapon. Another was issued 5 days ago after knife related issues in the city centre.

TVP seem quite proactive at issuing such notices after crimes/reports of crimes involving bladed impliments - they tend to publicise them via twitter. Search TVP_MK for details.

 

[sprunt]

I do hate the negativity surrounding Nottingham recently, I'm very fond of the city. Saying that, for 2 of the 4 years I lived in Rushcliffe rather than the official City...

It was that way 15-20 years ago when I lived there - anyone I told that I lived there would usually ask me in horror how I managed to avoid being shot, to which I'd reply that it was by not being a member of a drugs gang in St Ann's. Nottingham felt very safe, unlike the rare occasions I went out in Leicester which always seemed to have a tension in the air that made it feel like violence was going to break out any minute.

 

[LLivery]

It was that way 15-20 years ago when I lived there - anyone I told that I lived there would usually ask me in horror how I managed to avoid being shot, to which I'd reply that it was by not being a member of a drugs gang in St Ann's. Nottingham felt very safe, unlike the rare occasions I went out in Leicester which always seemed to have a tension in the air that made it feel like violence was going to break out any minute.

Yeah, when I moved there for uni 'Shottingham' got mentioned a few times during the first week or two, but afterwards, no one mentioned it again. St Ann's is probably one of the only places I never visited with my bus pass. Even though isn't advisable, I can't say I felt endangered alone, even at night in Notts. I've had the same OTT crime worries about living in South London - 'it's dangerous, you'll get stabbed!' - I feel totally safe here.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't live there but I've worked in Nottingham for years and I've always liked visiting and socialising there too. There is however a fairly significant substance abuse/vagrancy problem that could really do with some more effort put into cleaning it up.

 

[43066]

I don't live there but I've worked in Nottingham for years and I've always liked visiting and socialising there too. There is however a fairly significant substance abuse/vagrancy problem that could really do with some more effort put into cleaning it up.

Especially in the vicinity of the station, more’s the pity! That passage between the Starbucks and the station entrance is rife with beggars and can get quite unpleasant in the evenings.

 

[baz962]

Especially in the vicinity of the station, more’s the pity! That passage between the Starbucks and the station entrance is rife with beggars and can get quite unpleasant in the evenings.

Only you would frequent Starbucks
As an aside I was at Nottingham last night and some young lad was mouthing off at the platform staff. I couldn't quite hear what he said as the staff walked away from him , but I thought I heard him say he would stab him. He then just walked away up the stairs.

 

[stuu]

There is however a fairly significant substance abuse/vagrancy problem that could really do with some more effort put into cleaning it up.

Isn't that the case everywhere? Certainly seems to be

 

[Jozhua]

Only you would frequent Starbucks
As an aside I was at Nottingham last night and some young lad was mouthing off at the platform staff. I couldn't quite hear what he said as the staff walked away from him , but I thought I heard him say he would stab him. He then just walked away up the stairs.

Threatening to stab someone should have you arrested - part of the problem is that station staff are so used to it they just ignore it, so they continue to terrorise the community and other staff, yet face no consequences for it.

The police can't help if you don't bother to engage with them.

Isn't that the case everywhere? Certainly seems to be

Nottingham is particularly bad in my experience.

 

[BJames]

I don't live there but I've worked in Nottingham for years and I've always liked visiting and socialising there too. There is however a fairly significant substance abuse/vagrancy problem that could really do with some more effort put into cleaning it up.

It is a great place to socialise usually - I've been here for 4 years and had a great experience (pandemic aside) - but I was noticing more when I was in town the other day that there was a significantly higher number of beggars, shifty characters and just general nuisance people stopping to ask if I cared about knife crime/[insert range of other problems] - particularly bad on Clumber Street but outside the station by Tesco/Starbucks as noted above is not great either.

 

[43066]

Only you would frequent Starbucks

Not anymore I don’t.

Last time I was in there they said they don’t do the railway staff discount anymore. I walked out and made it on the train instead - haven’t been back since!

As an aside I was at Nottingham last night and some young lad was mouthing off at the platform staff. I couldn't quite hear what he said as the staff walked away from him , but I thought I heard him say he would stab him. He then just walked away up the stairs.

Typical scally.

It is a great place to socialise usually - I've been here for 4 years and had a great experience (pandemic aside) - but I was noticing more when I was in town the other day that there was a significantly higher number of beggars, shifty characters and just general nuisance people stopping to ask if I cared about knife crime/[insert range of other problems] - particularly bad on Clumber Street but outside the station by Tesco/Starbucks as noted above is not great either.

It’s a pity about the “issues” because it’s a nice city.